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Bush Empire Strikes Back?

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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SF Chronicle best use of a quarter on the West Coast
(excerpt from the middle)
On Wednesday morning, when the ABC news show reported from Fallujah, where the division is based, the troops gave the reporters an earful. One soldier said he felt like he'd been "kicked in the guts, slapped in the face." Another demanded that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld quit.

The retaliation from Washington was swift.


CAREERS OVER FOR SOME
"It was the end of the world," said one officer Thursday. "It went all the way up to President Bush and back down again on top of us. At least six of us here will lose our careers."

First lesson for the troops, it seemed: Don't ever talk to the media "on the record" -- that is, with your name attached -- unless you're giving the sort of chin-forward, everything's-great message the Pentagon loves to hear.

Only two days before the ABC show, similarly bitter sentiments -- with no names attached -- were voiced in an anonymous e-mail circulating around the Internet, allegedly from "the soldiers of the Second Brigade, Third ID."

"Our morale is not high or even low," the letter said. "Our morale is nonexistent. We have been told twice that we were going home, and twice we have received a 'stop' movement to stay in Iraq."

 

Yossarian

Lifer
Dec 26, 2000
18,010
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Regardless of your position on the war, it's extremely stupid for military personnel to criticize their leadership in public.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,211
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Originally posted by: PipBoy
Regardless of your position on the war, it's extremely stupid for military personnel to criticize their leadership in public.
Yep, they are absolutely right to bitch, and absolutely stupid to do it openly. The military is not a democracy, and free speech does NOT apply. They knew it, and should have known Rummy was not going to give them slack.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
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I was shocked to hear that people were bashing the administration on the record. This is a known no-no. Bad situation all around.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Originally posted by: tnitsuj
I was shocked to hear that people were bashing the administration on the record. This is a known no-no. Bad situation all around.
Indeed, it's too bad they have but one career as well as one life to give for their country... without their voice we would be left with the notion that all's well on the eastern front..

 
Oct 16, 1999
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Granted, they should not have said what they said, and they should be reprimanded (maybe severly for some) for doing so, but I think any of them losing thier career over this shows just how petty this admin is. But on the bright side, maybe this will mean these guys get to come home early.
 

tnitsuj

Diamond Member
May 22, 2003
5,446
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Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Granted, they should not have said what they said, and they should be reprimanded (maybe severly for some) for doing so, but I think any of them losing thier career over this shows just how petty this admin is. But on the bright side, maybe this will mean these guys get to come home early.
I really don't think it is petty at all. I would hope any administration would take the same action.

The military is subordinate to the civillian leadership. To have soldiers openly questioning thier superiors is unnaceptable. Remember General MacArthur? I don't think courts martial and dishonorable discharges are out of line for some of the comments I heard.
***I am being serious here****
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,497
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Originally posted by: tnitsuj
Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
Granted, they should not have said what they said, and they should be reprimanded (maybe severly for some) for doing so, but I think any of them losing thier career over this shows just how petty this admin is. But on the bright side, maybe this will mean these guys get to come home early.
I really don't think it is petty at all. I would hope any administration would take the same action.

The military is subordinate to the civillian leadership. To have soldiers openly questioning thier superiors is unnaceptable. Remember General MacArthur? I don't think courts martial and dishonorable discharges are out of line for some of the comments I heard.
***I am being serious here****
You might be right, but I still think it's awfully unfair for these guys to lose their career over what was basically a bitch session, especially considering the circumstances that have put them in that position in the first place. They are the ones getting shot at while their civilian leadership is jerking this (and that) entire country around with their games, lies, and ineptitude.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,714
3,519
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I don't believe you have to obey orders to fight an illegal war. An army in which you couldn't express what you feel wouldn't be much of an army. It would be more like a mindless machine. No mindless machine could ever take on an army of self motivated killers. What a damn shame. What if these soldiers are right and we should get the hell out now. To silence them would be to silence truth. No wonder the great Samurai could only be taken down by exhaustion.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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We should amend the constitution to eliminate the Federal Government's Army etc.. building capability... The various States would maintain a militia... as they now do... and if The President wanted to go to war ...well the states would decide if they wanted to send their troops... some states would be war mongers states and others would be peace states.. and we'd just live in the proper state for our temperament...
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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You guys just don't get it do you? The armed forces are not allowed at any level to have a public opinion. You know why? A long rich tradition of military coups in many countries around the world. Think about it. They have all the guns, all the training and all the mindset to do just about anything they wanted. You can't even start letting the military taking a position on anything because once they do it comes down to who can back their position the best, and nobody can compete with the dudes with the guns.

Now I know some of you don't think the military ending "The Bush Empire" would be so bad. No offense, but then we'd have the military in charge, and I think we can all agree that would be worse.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,880
4,211
126
Originally posted by: JellyBaby
Anyone believe stories like this are affecting recruitment levels?
That's a good point. I am not sure where to find recruitment statistics, but it would be interesting to see what the monthly numbers going back a few years and into the future would be. If it were charted and like a stock, I might be thinking about selling short. Well, if the numbers get too low and Bush is in office, I am sure conscription could always make a come back.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,939
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One US soldier said, if Rumsfeld was there, he woul dask for his resignation from Government (I think it was Rumsfeld).
Go free speech :)
 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
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I think the more informed (vets of one form or another) could address the point. But I think these guys were doing the typical "bitch about not being home while enduring crappy conditions." It's not like they are stranded on Ko Phi Phi (southern Thailand) or Hawaii. They are in a hostile country with less than hospitable weather. Unlike southern Vietnam I seriously doubt there's a booming prostitution industry in Iraq.
 

DZip

Senior member
Apr 11, 2000
375
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If you think these soldiers have a right to free speech without consequences, then why not the President. Are you saying that the right free speech trumps job responsibility? Why does everyone think that our news media only reports the truth? They can twist and distort the truth to their hearts content. Manys times they only report one side of the story. ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CNN, etc. are no different than Al-Jazzera when they sort out the news to form a clear picture of how they see it.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,714
3,519
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
We should amend the constitution to eliminate the Federal Government's Army etc.. building capability... The various States would maintain a militia... as they now do... and if The President wanted to go to war ...well the states would decide if they wanted to send their troops... some states would be war mongers states and others would be peace states.. and we'd just live in the proper state for our temperament...
I got dibs on the state of rage.

 

BaliBabyDoc

Lifer
Jan 20, 2001
10,737
0
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Why does everyone think that our news media only reports the truth? They can twist and distort the truth to their hearts content. Manys times they only report one side of the story. ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS, CNN, etc. are no different than Al-Jazzera when they sort out the news to form a clear picture of how they see it.
Hmm . . . who's missing from this list . . . BBC . . . no . . . CBN . . . well, who watches the 700 Club. I know . . . you forgot FOX. How can you possibly forget Fox when it comes to reporting one side of the story? "We report, you decide" . . . just how FOS this network can be.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: LunarRay
We should amend the constitution to eliminate the Federal Government's Army etc.. building capability... The various States would maintain a militia... as they now do... and if The President wanted to go to war ...well the states would decide if they wanted to send their troops... some states would be war mongers states and others would be peace states.. and we'd just live in the proper state for our temperament...
I got dibs on the state of rage.
Well ya see it would be the LunarRay method of filling the states to their potential... and a means to gerrymander.. so the Leader of the War States could be New York. The Leader of the Peace State could be Montana and the Leader of the Rage State could be Florida.. All like minded folks could pack up and switch States... and live happily ever after.. Mixed States could exists... and would be required to recognize minority rights with 20% majorities..

 

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