Bush Administrations main "evidence" of Iraq's nuclear program in serious doubt

justint

Banned
Dec 6, 1999
1,429
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It looks like they knew from the beginning that the famous aluminum tubes were questionable but pushed them anyway.

washingtonpost.com
Bush Evidence of Iraq 'Appetite' for Nuclear Weapons in Doubt


By Joby Warrick
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 23, 2003; 6:14 PM


When President Bush traveled to the United Nations in September to make his case against Iraq, he brought along a rare piece of evidence for what he called Iraq's "continued appetite" for nuclear bombs. The finding: Iraq had tried to buy thousands of high-strength aluminum tubes, which Bush said were "used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon."

Bush cited the aluminum tubes in his speech before the U.N. General Assembly and in documents presented to U.N. leaders. Vice President Cheney and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice both repeated the claim, with Rice describing the tubes as "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs."

It was by far the most prominent, detailed assertion by the White House of recent Iraqi efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. But according to government officials and weapons experts, the claim now appears to be seriously in doubt.

After weeks of investigation, U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq are increasingly confident that the aluminum tubes were never meant for enriching uranium, according to officials familiar with the inspection process. The International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N.-chartered nuclear watchdog, reported in a Jan. 8 preliminary assessment that the tubes were "not directly suitable" for uranium enrichment but were "consistent" with making ordinary artillery rockets-a finding that meshed with Iraq's official explanation for the tubes. New evidence supporting that conclusion has been gathered in recent weeks and will be presented to the U.N. Security Council in a report due to be released on Monday, the officials said.

Moreover, there were clues from the beginning that should have raised doubts about claims that the tubes were part of a secret Iraqi nuclear weapons program, according to U.S. and international experts on uranium enrichment. The quantity and specifications of the tubes-narrow, silver cylinders measuring 81 millimeters in diameter and about a meter in length-could not be used to enrich uranium without extensive modification, the experts said.

But they're a perfect fit for a well-documented 81mm conventional rocket program in place for two decades. Iraq imported the same aluminum tubes for rockets in the 1980s. The new tubes it tried to purchase actually bear an inscription that includes the word "rocket," according to one official who examined them.

"It may be technically possible that the tubes could be used to enrich uranium," said one expert familiar with the investigation of Iraq's attempted acquisition. "But you'd have to believe that Iraq deliberately ordered the wrong stock and intended to spend a great deal of time and money reworking each piece."

As the U.N. inspections continue, some weapons experts said the aluminum tubes saga could undermine the credibility of claims about Iraq's arsenal. To date, the Bush administration has declined to release photos or other specific evidence to bolster its contention that Iraq is actively seeking to acquire new biological, chemical and nuclear arms, and the means to deliver them.

Although the U.N. inspections earlier this month turned up 16 empty chemical warheads for short-range, 122mm rockets, inspectors said that so far they have found no conclusive proof of a banned Iraqi weapons program in searches of facilities that had been identified as suspicious in U.S. and British intelligence reports. U.N. officials contend that Iraq still retains biological and chemical weapons and components it acquired before the 1991 Gulf War.

"If the U.S. government puts out bad information it runs a risk of undermining the good information it possesses," said David Albright, a former IAEA weapons inspector who has investigated Iraq's past nuclear programs extensively. "In this case, I fear that the information was put out there for a short-term political goal: to convince people that Saddam Hussein is close to acquiring nuclear weapons."

The Bush administration, while acknowledging the IAEA's findings on the aluminum tubes, has not retreated from its earlier statements. White House spokesman Ari Fleischer reacted to the IAEA's initial report on Jan. 8 by asserting that the case was still open.

"It should be noted," Fleischer said, "that the attempted acquisition of such tubes is prohibited under the United Nations resolutions in any case." U.N. sanctions restrict Iraq's ability to import so-called "dual-use" items that potentially could be used for weapons.

U.S. intelligence officials contend that the evidence, on balance, still points to a secret uranium enrichment program, although there is significant disagreement within the intelligence services. Those supporting the nuclear theory said they were influenced by "other intelligence" beyond the specifications of the tubes themselves, according to one intelligence official. He did not elaborate.

IAEA officials say the investigation of the tubes officially remains open. Earlier this week, Iraq agreed to provide inspectors with additional data about its intended use for the tubes.

The controversy stems from a series of Iraqi attempts to purchase large quantities-thousands or tens of thousands-of high-strength aluminum tubes during the past two years. None of the attempts are believed to have succeeded, although in one instance in 2001 a shipment of more than 60,000 Chinese-made aluminum tubes made it as far as Jordan before they were intercepted, according to officials familiar with Iraq's procurement attempts.

Since then, the officials said, Iraq has made at least two other attempts to acquire the tubes. The more recent attempts involved private firms located in what was described only as a "NATO country." In all, more than 120,000 of the tubes were reportedly sought.

In each of the attempts, Iraq requested tubes made of an aluminum alloy with precise dimensions and high tolerances for heat and stress. To intelligence analysts, the requests had a ring of familiarity: Iraq had imported aluminum metal in the 1980s, although with different specifications and much larger diameter, to build gas centrifuges, fast-spinning machines used in enriching uranium for nuclear weapons. Through a crash nuclear program launched in 1990, Iraq succeeded in enriching nearly enough uranium for one bomb before its plans were disrupted by the start of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, according to U.N. weapons inspectors.

By several accounts, Iraq's new attempts to buy aluminum tubes sparked a rancorous debate as Bush administration officials, intelligence analysts and government scientists argued over Iraq's intent.

"A number of people argued that the tubes could not possibly be used as artillery rockets because the specifications were so precise. It would be a waste of dollars," said one knowledgeable scientist.

Ultimately, the conclusion in the intelligence discussion was that Iraq was planning to use the tubes in a nuclear program. This view was favored by CIA analysts. However, there were dissenting arguments by enrichment experts at the Energy Department and officials at the State Department. What ultimately swung the argument in favor of the nuclear theory was the observation that Iraq had attempted to purchase aluminum tubes with such precise specifications that it made other uses seem unlikely, officials said.

By contrast, in Britain, the government of Prime Minister Tony Blair said in a Sept. 24 white paper that there was "no definitive intelligence" that the tubes were destined for a nuclear program.

The tubes were made of an aluminum-zinc alloy known as 7000-series, which is used in a wide range of industrial applications. But the dimensions and technical features, such as metal thickness and surface coatings, made them an unlikely choice for centrifuges, several nuclear experts said. Iraq used a different aluminum alloy in its centrifuges in the 1980s before switching to more advanced metals known as maraging steel and carbon fibers, which are better suited for the task, the experts said.

Significantly, there is no evidence so far that Iraq sought other materials required for centrifuges, such as motors, metal caps and special magnets, U.S. and international officials said.

Bush's remarks about the aluminum tubes caused a stir at the IAEA's headquarters in Vienna. Weapons experts at the agency had also been monitoring Iraq's aluminum-buying spree but were skeptical of arguments that the tubes had a nuclear purpose, according to one official who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The IAEA spent seven years in the 1990s documenting and ultimately destroying all known vestiges of Iraq's nuclear weapons program, including its gas centrifuges.

After returning to Iraq when weapons inspections resumed in November, the IAEA made it a priority to sort out the conflicting claims, according to officials familiar with the probe. In December, the agency spent several days poring through files and interviewing people involved in the acquisition of the tubes--including officials at the company that supplied the metal and managers of the Baghdad importing firm that apparently had been set up as a front company to acquire special parts and materials for Iraq's Ministry of Industry. According to informed officials, the IAEA concluded Iraq had indeed been running a secret procurement operation, but the intended beneficiary was not Iraq's Atomic Energy Commission, but rather an established army program to replace Iraq's aging arsenal of conventional 81mm rockets, the type used in multiple rocket launchers.

The explanation made sense for several reasons, they said. In the 1980s, Iraq was known to have obtained a design for 81mm rockets through reverse-engineering of munitions it had previously purchased abroad. During the Iran-Iraq war, Iraqis built tens of thousands of such rockets, using high-strength, 7000-series aluminum tubes it bought from foreign suppliers. U.N. inspectors in the 1990s had allowed Iraq to retain a stockpile of some 160,000 of the 81mm rockets, and an inspection of the stockpile last month confirmed that the rockets still exist, though now aging and corroded after years of exposure in outdoor depots.

By all appearances, the Iraqis were "trying to buy exact replacements for those rockets," said Albright, the former IAEA inspector.

Albright, now president of the Institute for Science and International Security, a Washington research group, said even a less sinister explanation for the aluminum tubes did not suggest that Iraq is entirely innocent.

"But if Iraq does have a centrifuge program, it is well-hidden, and it is important for us to come up with information that will help us find it," Albright said. "This incident discredits that effort at a time when we can least afford it."


© 2003 The Washington Post Company
 

Phuz

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2000
4,349
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What do you know, Charrison?

Why is France and Germany teaming up to challenge the decision?

Also, you think Blair is going to support this war if he has to choose between his European neighbours and the U.S.?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,925
6,570
126
Yup, Bush is a fraud. It's not about WMD it's about a New American Imperialism. Bush is a religious-idiological fanatic. He's a meness to the world.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
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Originally posted by: Phuz
What do you know, Charrison?

Why is France and Germany teaming up to challenge the decision?

Also, you think Blair is going to support this war if he has to choose between his European neighbours and the U.S.?

Trade ties with the current iraq govement?

Blair has already sent 1/4 to 1/3 of the UK troops to the middle east, i think the UK is serious.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,384
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something about some tubes being for perhaps 81mm rockets instead of nukes.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
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Surely our federal government would never, ever lie, mislead or exagerate in order to promote the goals of the current administration!
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup, Bush is a fraud. It's not about WMD it's about a New American Imperialism. Bush is a religious-idiological fanatic. He's a meness to the world.

Did you read the article, or just the title of the thread? Your ignorance seems to have no end.
 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
4,355
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Originally posted by: charrison
Joby Warrick will be eating some of words in a few days.

Why? he reported what the different sources had to say about the "evidence"... what's wrong with that?
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
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That is some pretty damning information, and Bush is begining to look like nothing more than a war monger. I think this will stymie any effort to gain acceptance by the world community of his plans for military overthrow of Saddam. This administration has got to come up with irefutable evidence that Sadddam poses a threat to his nieghbors or to our security,and it better be damn convincing. When we base our support on a lie, we are made fools. I do not like that at all.

That said, Saddam (IMHO) should be removed from leadership in Iraq to free the country from his iron fisted control and debachery. But the problem is, who are we to make that call? This is a soverign nation, with elected officials. Just because we may not like the outcome, doesn't give us license to change a nation because it doesn't suit our "lifestyle". I can only imagine the precedence this would set up, for 1.6 billion muslums to insist on the same rules of engagment, as an example.

Bush better fess up with convincing, compelling evidence and rock solid justification for a military solution,and by no later than the State of the Union address, or there will be precious few who will support him, for this or anything else he is trying to do. This is too big a deal to base it on lies and fabrications for this father to encourage his sons to fight in an unjust war. I've been there already before. It was not a pretty sight, in the early 70's.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: SnapIT
Originally posted by: charrison
Joby Warrick will be eating some of words in a few days.

Why? he reported what the different sources had to say about the "evidence"... what's wrong with that?

Nothing, but the article is implying the administration is being untruthful and has no real evidence.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81
or there will be precious few who will support him, for this or anything else he is trying to do.
Support at home doesn't matter much. He just needs apathy and a lack of opposition to do anything he wants via foreign policy especially if he cares little about re-election.
 

EndGame

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2002
1,276
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Dunno, but, from another angle, it kinda' looks like the following after reading many of your meanderings since my arrival.;)

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Yup, Moonbeam is a fraud. It's not about truth, it's about a Moonbeams hatred for Bush. Moonbeam is a non-religious-idiological fanatic. He's a meness to the world.

 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
4,355
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Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: SnapIT
Originally posted by: charrison
Joby Warrick will be eating some of words in a few days.

Why? he reported what the different sources had to say about the "evidence"... what's wrong with that?

Nothing, but the article is implying the administration is being untruthful and has no real evidence.

Where? as far as i can see the article only states what the different sources have said about it...
 

XZeroII

Lifer
Jun 30, 2001
12,572
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Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: SnapIT
Originally posted by: charrison
Joby Warrick will be eating some of words in a few days.

Why? he reported what the different sources had to say about the "evidence"... what's wrong with that?

Nothing, but the article is implying the administration is being untruthful and has no real evidence.

The article said that not everyone agrees that the evidence is 100% conclusive. There is NO evidence that is 100% conclusive. This article has no meaning whatsoever. Did anyone catch the part about how Iraq had enough enriched Uranium to build one nuclear bomb by the end of the Gulf War? Getting the enriched uranium is by far the hardest part of building a nuclear bomb. The rest is just details. I certainly don't want that lunatic running around loose in the world.
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: Tripleshot
That is some pretty damning information, and Bush is begining to look like nothing more than a war monger. I think this will stymie any effort to gain acceptance by the world community of his plans for military overthrow of Saddam. This administration has got to come up with irefutable evidence that Sadddam poses a threat to his nieghbors or to our security,and it better be damn convincing. When we base our support on a lie, we are made fools. I do not like that at all.

That said, Saddam (IMHO) should be removed from leadership in Iraq to free the country from his iron fisted control and debachery. But the problem is, who are we to make that call? This is a soverign nation, with elected officials. Just because we may not like the outcome, doesn't give us license to change a nation because it doesn't suit our "lifestyle". I can only imagine the precedence this would set up, for 1.6 billion muslums to insist on the same rules of engagment, as an example.

Bush better fess up with convincing, compelling evidence and rock solid justification for a military solution,and by no later than the State of the Union address, or there will be precious few who will support him, for this or anything else he is trying to do. This is too big a deal to base it on lies and fabrications for this father to encourage his sons to fight in an unjust war. I've been there already before. It was not a pretty sight, in the early 70's.


So would you out intel be played out before inspections occur or after? If we play our hand early on, Iraq has a chance to hide things. If we play our hand after the UN report, it only looks worse for Iraq. Also Blix is going to be less than nice to Iraq in the report. Iraq is not allowing scientist interviews or providing documentation of destroyed weapons. As Powell or Rumsfeld said, "this stuff is not lemonaid and you cant completely get rid of all signs this stuff existed".
 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
4,355
1
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: Tripleshot
That is some pretty damning information, and Bush is begining to look like nothing more than a war monger. I think this will stymie any effort to gain acceptance by the world community of his plans for military overthrow of Saddam. This administration has got to come up with irefutable evidence that Sadddam poses a threat to his nieghbors or to our security,and it better be damn convincing. When we base our support on a lie, we are made fools. I do not like that at all.

That said, Saddam (IMHO) should be removed from leadership in Iraq to free the country from his iron fisted control and debachery. But the problem is, who are we to make that call? This is a soverign nation, with elected officials. Just because we may not like the outcome, doesn't give us license to change a nation because it doesn't suit our "lifestyle". I can only imagine the precedence this would set up, for 1.6 billion muslums to insist on the same rules of engagment, as an example.

Bush better fess up with convincing, compelling evidence and rock solid justification for a military solution,and by no later than the State of the Union address, or there will be precious few who will support him, for this or anything else he is trying to do. This is too big a deal to base it on lies and fabrications for this father to encourage his sons to fight in an unjust war. I've been there already before. It was not a pretty sight, in the early 70's.


So would you out intel be played out before inspections occur or after? If we play our hand early on, Iraq has a chance to hide things. If we play our hand after the UN report, it only looks worse for Iraq. Also Blix is going to be less than nice to Iraq in the report. Iraq is not allowing scientist interviews or providing documentation of destroyed weapons. As Powell or Rumsfeld said, "this stuff is not lemonaid and you cant completely get rid of all signs this stuff existed".

Isn't it strange that Blix has been critizised for not using the possibility of taking scientists out of the country if Irak will not allow it?
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
When President Bush traveled to the United Nations in September to make his case against Iraq, he brought along a rare piece of evidence for what he called Iraq's "continued appetite" for nuclear bombs. The finding: Iraq had tried to buy thousands of high-strength aluminum tubes, which Bush said were "used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon."

Bush cited the aluminum tubes in his speech before the U.N. General Assembly and in documents presented to U.N. leaders. Vice President Cheney and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice both repeated the claim, with Rice describing the tubes as "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs."

It was by far the most prominent, detailed assertion by the White House of recent Iraqi efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. But according to government officials and weapons experts, the claim now appears to be seriously in doubt.

After weeks of investigation, U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq are increasingly confident that the aluminum tubes were never meant for enriching uranium, according to officials familiar with the inspection process. The International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N.-chartered nuclear watchdog, reported in a Jan. 8 preliminary assessment that the tubes were "not directly suitable" for uranium enrichment but were "consistent" with making ordinary artillery rockets-a finding that meshed with Iraq's official explanation for the tubes. New evidence supporting that conclusion has been gathered in recent weeks and will be presented to the U.N. Security Council in a report due to be released on Monday, the officials said.

In Sept. there seemed to be no evidence that the tubes were not being used for uranium enrichment. It was not until the inspectors got into Iraq that it now appears that they were to be used for the missiles.

Anyone want to tell me who got the inspectors back into Iraq?
 

SnapIT

Banned
Jul 8, 2002
4,355
1
0
Originally posted by: etech
When President Bush traveled to the United Nations in September to make his case against Iraq, he brought along a rare piece of evidence for what he called Iraq's "continued appetite" for nuclear bombs. The finding: Iraq had tried to buy thousands of high-strength aluminum tubes, which Bush said were "used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon."

Bush cited the aluminum tubes in his speech before the U.N. General Assembly and in documents presented to U.N. leaders. Vice President Cheney and national security adviser Condoleezza Rice both repeated the claim, with Rice describing the tubes as "only really suited for nuclear weapons programs."

It was by far the most prominent, detailed assertion by the White House of recent Iraqi efforts to acquire nuclear weapons. But according to government officials and weapons experts, the claim now appears to be seriously in doubt.

After weeks of investigation, U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq are increasingly confident that the aluminum tubes were never meant for enriching uranium, according to officials familiar with the inspection process. The International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N.-chartered nuclear watchdog, reported in a Jan. 8 preliminary assessment that the tubes were "not directly suitable" for uranium enrichment but were "consistent" with making ordinary artillery rockets-a finding that meshed with Iraq's official explanation for the tubes. New evidence supporting that conclusion has been gathered in recent weeks and will be presented to the U.N. Security Council in a report due to be released on Monday, the officials said.

In Sept. there seemed to be no evidence that the tubes were not being used for uranium enrichment. It was not until the inspectors got into Iraq that it now appears that they were to be used for the missiles.

Anyone want to tell me who got the inspectors back into Iraq?

there seemed to be no evidence that the tubes were NOT being used for uranium enrichment???? WOW, that's what i call real evidence...