Bush Administration, Gonzales Revive Nazi Legal Arguments

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
0
76

[/quote]ICH

...

EIR: Now, moving ahead to the 20th Century, the types of arguments that are made?which have been made in the context of the current, so-called "war on terrorism," there are echoes of that, also, in the Nazi period, or going into World War II.

Horton: No doubt about that! I think if you look at the Nazi climb to power, starting from 1933, that climb to power was driven by fear-mongering on what might be an historically unprecedented scale.

Fear-mongering was used as the tool to change the law, to undermine civil liberties. So, where the constitution was changed, the code of criminal procedure was changed in this period, and extraordinary powers were vested in the Executive, including police powers; the powers of an independent judiciary were destroyed. And, this was all done based on a "terrorist menace." And exactly what the menace was, shifted from time to time during the Nazi period. It was a matter of opportunism, or convenience.


But clearly, 1933, at the beginning, if you look at the campaign speeches in the elections to the Reichstag, probably the number-one target is the "international Bolshevik conspiracy." So, it's multi-ethnic, rooted in ideology, it's all around us, you never know if your next-door neighbor isn't a member of this conspiracy?but it is also tied to a local political party. And they're definitely labeled as a terrorist conspiracy.

The seminal event for the Nazification of Germany, the so-called Gleichschaltung, was, then, the burning of the Reichstag building?1933. And, again, that event occurred a matter of months after the new government was formed. It was seized upon immediately by the Nazi leadership, as a pretext for strengthening their control of the state and rooting out the liberal democratic protections of the Weimar Constitution and of German law.

EIR: On the specific military questions that have come up?on treatment of captives, prisoners of war, enemy combatants, and so forth?what kind of parallels are there in that respect?

Horton: Let's just start at the threshold question: Do the Geneva Conventions apply to the conflict? From the outset Nazi leaders talked dismissively of the Geneva Conventions and looked for ways to avoid them.

They looked for technical exceptions. And the arguments that were advanced, are essentially identical to the arguments that are made in Judge Gonzales's memorandum of Jan. 25, 2002: First, the adversary didn't sign the Convention, and therefore the adversary is not entitled to its protections. And in this case, you have the Soviet Union, which, of course, was not a state party to the Geneva Convention.

And then, secondly, all the demonization of the Russians as "Bolshevik terrorists" was trotted out: That these people, they are terrorists, and therefore, in the language of the Geneva Convention, "they don't abide by the rules of war." And therefore, you can not fight a modern war against terrorists, under the rules of this Convention. And we see a specific argument being trotted out, about the "obsolescence" of the Convention; it's being described and denigrated as the "product of a notion of chivalry of a bygone era."

...
 

imported_Condor

Diamond Member
Sep 22, 2004
5,425
0
0
Did you see the piece (NBC, I think) today on the Llian Gonzales neighbors sueing the government for the NAZI style attack on the Gonzales house in Florida during the Clinton Administration? Just in case you have no idea what a NAZI style attack is like.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Nice try, Condor, but it really won't fly. Just a stinkin' red herring.

The obvious parallels between the modern Rightwing and the Rightwing as exemplified by the nazis is more than slightly uncomfortable to discuss. That's partly because nobody really wants to look at it squarely, and that the derision heaped on anybody making such a comparison is often extreme, just as it was 70 years ago.

It is, nonetheless, apropos, given the basic contradiction between the rhetoric and the reality of the far Right. Even as GWB intones "Free", "Freedom" and "Liberty" so many times as to be near hypnotic, his subordinates and supporters justify and practice measures that undermine and deny those principles to growing numbers of people around the globe. Their justifications, like the nazis' justifications, are based on loophole interpretations of domestic and international law, rather than on application of any principles whatsoever... supported by a constant stream of fearmongering and agitprop.

If you can't or won't see it, you're not alone, but that still doesn't make it right, and doesn't make it fit into the sort of vision expressed in the Constitution about due process and presumption of innocence, of common decency and fair play.

 

sierrita

Senior member
Mar 24, 2002
929
0
0
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Nice try, Condor, but it really won't fly. Just a stinkin' red herring.

The obvious parallels between the modern Rightwing and the Rightwing as exemplified by the nazis is more than slightly uncomfortable to discuss. That's partly because nobody really wants to look at it squarely, and that the derision heaped on anybody making such a comparison is often extreme, just as it was 70 years ago.

It is, nonetheless, apropos, given the basic contradiction between the rhetoric and the reality of the far Right. Even as GWB intones "Free", "Freedom" and "Liberty" so many times as to be near hypnotic, his subordinates and supporters justify and practice measures that undermine and deny those principles to growing numbers of people around the globe. Their justifications, like the nazis' justifications, are based on loophole interpretations of domestic and international law, rather than on application of any principles whatsoever... supported by a constant stream of fearmongering and agitprop.

If you can't or won't see it, you're not alone, but that still doesn't make it right, and doesn't make it fit into the sort of vision expressed in the Constitution about due process and presumption of innocence, of common decency and fair play.




Well said.



:thumbsup:
 

BigJelly

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2002
1,717
0
0
Originally posted by: sierrita
Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Nice try, Condor, but it really won't fly. Just a stinkin' red herring.

The obvious parallels between the modern Rightwing and the Rightwing as exemplified by the nazis is more than slightly uncomfortable to discuss. That's partly because nobody really wants to look at it squarely, and that the derision heaped on anybody making such a comparison is often extreme, just as it was 70 years ago.

It is, nonetheless, apropos, given the basic contradiction between the rhetoric and the reality of the far Right. Even as GWB intones "Free", "Freedom" and "Liberty" so many times as to be near hypnotic, his subordinates and supporters justify and practice measures that undermine and deny those principles to growing numbers of people around the globe. Their justifications, like the nazis' justifications, are based on loophole interpretations of domestic and international law, rather than on application of any principles whatsoever... supported by a constant stream of fearmongering and agitprop.

If you can't or won't see it, you're not alone, but that still doesn't make it right, and doesn't make it fit into the sort of vision expressed in the Constitution about due process and presumption of innocence, of common decency and fair play.




Well said.



:thumbsup:

yeah people just dont you know history like the nazis america went into countries that attacked or threatened them or other sovern countries and instead of ethnic cleansing we set up and continue to set up democracies where tyranny once rein supreme--just like the nazis...i see it now thanks
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Fearmongering about fearmongering. How ironic.

I agree. We need to trust our officials completely. It's a different world after 9/11. Traditional legal protections are quaint. We need more forward thinking people like Gonzales. We need to be tougher, harder, more pure to our spreading Democracy no matter the means. Those opposing are unpatriotic and should be suspect. You who oppose our greatness need to be controlled. We are the superior culture. Opposition needs to be swept away.

We need breathing room.
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
What's the point of these op-ed pieces? To convince people that Bush and his voters act much like Nazis? What a crock of badly reasoned BS.

Liberals tout athiesm and relativism in morals (democracy and free living for us, but to hell with you, live under a dictatorship and solve your own problems). I think if you look at the Nazi climb to power, starting from 1933, that climb to power was driven by athiesm and relativism on what might be an historically unprecedented scale.

Oooooh, scary. I've just convinced exactly 0 people that liberals are akin to Nazis and that I might have suffered brain damage in the recent past turning me into a paranoid delusionist (no doubt some poster who thinks he's witty would cut and quote this sentence and say, 'so true!' or some nonsense if I didn't write this disclaimer).

But don't let me interrupt the little circle jerk that tends to get on a roll in these threads. "How true!" "We are so better than them!" Keep on kidding yourself.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Fearmongering about fearmongering. How ironic.

I agree. We need to trust our officials completely. It's a different world after 9/11. Traditional legal protections are quaint. We need more forward thinking people like Gonzales. We need to be tougher, harder, more pure to our spreading Democracy no matter the means. Those opposing are unpatriotic and should be suspect. You who oppose our greatness need to be controlled. We are the superior culture. Opposition needs to be swept away.

We need breathing room.

And if fearmongering wasn't enough, now a strawman is built to set afire so some red herrings can be roasted to blackness as well.

Would you like chestnuts with those too? Oh, wait, you already have some I see.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Fearmongering about fearmongering. How ironic.

I agree. We need to trust our officials completely. It's a different world after 9/11. Traditional legal protections are quaint. We need more forward thinking people like Gonzales. We need to be tougher, harder, more pure to our spreading Democracy no matter the means. Those opposing are unpatriotic and should be suspect. You who oppose our greatness need to be controlled. We are the superior culture. Opposition needs to be swept away.

We need breathing room.

And if fearmongering wasn't enough, now a strawman is built to set afire so some red herrings can be roasted to blackness as well.

Would you like chestnuts with those too? Oh, wait, you already have some I see.

Sorry, I was using Gonzales words against him to illustrate his creative view of things.

Ok, he's a swell guy deserving our complete trust.

Feel better?

 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Fearmongering about fearmongering. How ironic.

I agree. We need to trust our officials completely. It's a different world after 9/11. Traditional legal protections are quaint. We need more forward thinking people like Gonzales. We need to be tougher, harder, more pure to our spreading Democracy no matter the means. Those opposing are unpatriotic and should be suspect. You who oppose our greatness need to be controlled. We are the superior culture. Opposition needs to be swept away.

We need breathing room.

And if fearmongering wasn't enough, now a strawman is built to set afire so some red herrings can be roasted to blackness as well.

Would you like chestnuts with those too? Oh, wait, you already have some I see.

Sorry, I was using Gonzales words against him to illustrate his creative view of things.

Ok, he's a swell guy deserving our complete trust.

Feel better?
Your world must be dreadfully dull since you apparently only have the capability of seeing extremes and in black and white.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Fearmongering about fearmongering. How ironic.

I agree. We need to trust our officials completely. It's a different world after 9/11. Traditional legal protections are quaint. We need more forward thinking people like Gonzales. We need to be tougher, harder, more pure to our spreading Democracy no matter the means. Those opposing are unpatriotic and should be suspect. You who oppose our greatness need to be controlled. We are the superior culture. Opposition needs to be swept away.

We need breathing room.

And if fearmongering wasn't enough, now a strawman is built to set afire so some red herrings can be roasted to blackness as well.

Would you like chestnuts with those too? Oh, wait, you already have some I see.

Sorry, I was using Gonzales words against him to illustrate his creative view of things.

Ok, he's a swell guy deserving our complete trust.

Feel better?
Your world must be dreadfully dull since you apparently only have the capability of seeing extremes and in black and white.

That's Bush's pervue.

I do know that the best way to keep trouble out of one's home is not to open the door for it. Once someone gets into a position in DC then it's the devil to get them out. Based on what I see of Gonzales, I think he's best left out in the cold.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
It's amazing that the Rightwing has the nerve to accuse anybody else of fearmongering after the ongoing waves of it perpetrated by the admin... anybody else remember the duct tape and plastic sheeting routine? Probably... some of you probably fondle it occasionally, too, dreaming of Armageddon and the Rapture thereafter... Perhaps the Orange Alert during the DNC, based on 5 year old intelligence... maybe the raving about wmd's that turned out not to exist, and the now open admission that such weren't the "real" reasons for war, but rather a deception, a rallying cry for the faithful...

None of which really changes anything... none of those defending the admin have claimed that the similarities aren't real, merely that they don't matter... Sure, it's more refined and more subtle today, but the principles remain the same, and have been since ancient times- "Us against Them" "With Us or Against Us" and, of course "God on our side"... The Nazis exploited such sentiment among German protestants in their rise to power, decrying the "Communist Jewish Influence" and "Moral Decay" under the Weimar Republic, and pointing to the need for a "Strong Leader" to lead them out of the morass... The absolute necessity of placing more power in the Executive, and of waging war to free the oppressed germans under Czech and Polish rule...

Can't see it? Of course not... that's how it works... Karl Rove plays on the fears, preconceptions, cultural mythos, and weaknesses of the american electorate the way Eric Clapton plays the guitar... While the subject matter can be tuned to the target population at will, it really doesn't change the nature of the deception or the methodology at all...

I suppose that it exposes a profound weakness in our education system, and in our sense of morality as well... But that's OK, just keep saying it to yourself-"It can't happen here, it can't happen here, it can't..."
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
1,988
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Fearmongering about fearmongering. How ironic.

I agree. We need to trust our officials completely. It's a different world after 9/11. Traditional legal protections are quaint. We need more forward thinking people like Gonzales. We need to be tougher, harder, more pure to our spreading Democracy no matter the means. Those opposing are unpatriotic and should be suspect. You who oppose our greatness need to be controlled. We are the superior culture. Opposition needs to be swept away.

We need breathing room.

And if fearmongering wasn't enough, now a strawman is built to set afire so some red herrings can be roasted to blackness as well.

Would you like chestnuts with those too? Oh, wait, you already have some I see.

Sorry, I was using Gonzales words against him to illustrate his creative view of things.

Ok, he's a swell guy deserving our complete trust.

Feel better?
Your world must be dreadfully dull since you apparently only have the capability of seeing extremes and in black and white.

It's not about black and white. It's right and wrong. The world isn't black and white but that doesn't give someone the right, trying to stand on the moral high ground, to say or do the wrong thing.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Fearmongering about fearmongering. How ironic.

I agree. We need to trust our officials completely. It's a different world after 9/11. Traditional legal protections are quaint. We need more forward thinking people like Gonzales. We need to be tougher, harder, more pure to our spreading Democracy no matter the means. Those opposing are unpatriotic and should be suspect. You who oppose our greatness need to be controlled. We are the superior culture. Opposition needs to be swept away.

We need breathing room.

And if fearmongering wasn't enough, now a strawman is built to set afire so some red herrings can be roasted to blackness as well.

Would you like chestnuts with those too? Oh, wait, you already have some I see.

Sorry, I was using Gonzales words against him to illustrate his creative view of things.

Ok, he's a swell guy deserving our complete trust.

Feel better?
Your world must be dreadfully dull since you apparently only have the capability of seeing extremes and in black and white.

It's not about black and white. It's right and wrong. The world isn't black and white but that doesn't give someone the right, trying to stand on the moral high ground, to say or do the wrong thing.
Read that closely, then take it to heart. In fact, all the new liberals should think about that - roll it around on their tongue - and see if making that statement tastes like hypocrisy.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
It comes down to issues of "Who we are", whether we'll stand against tyranny in all its forms, or succumb to one form when faced with another. It's not about "who they are" or what they do, at all, or using their misdeeds to debase ourselves into performing some of our own.

For folks so quick to cite "honor" "dignity" "morals" and "values" when it's time to convince the voters, the whole exercise becomes transparently cynical and unprincipled when their decisions are based on the same "technical exceptions" that the Nazis employed.

When it comes to the point that justification for engaging in war, torture and imprisonment rests simply on the idea that the other guy does it, and we can do it better, then there's really no justification at all... the whole notion of "protecting our way of life" becomes a non sequiter. If a majority of Americans truly believe this is just peachy, then we have nothing to protect, and the whole litany of "free" "freedom" and "Liberty" intoned at the inauguration is only mealy mouthed mumblings...

I certainly can't imagine Washington, Jefferson or Payne making the same arguments as Gonzales, that's for sure... Maybe the Constitution is now regarded as "quaint" in rightwing circles, just as quaint as the Geneva Conventions...
 

imported_Aelius

Golden Member
Apr 25, 2004
1,988
0
0
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Aelius
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Fearmongering about fearmongering. How ironic.

I agree. We need to trust our officials completely. It's a different world after 9/11. Traditional legal protections are quaint. We need more forward thinking people like Gonzales. We need to be tougher, harder, more pure to our spreading Democracy no matter the means. Those opposing are unpatriotic and should be suspect. You who oppose our greatness need to be controlled. We are the superior culture. Opposition needs to be swept away.

We need breathing room.

And if fearmongering wasn't enough, now a strawman is built to set afire so some red herrings can be roasted to blackness as well.

Would you like chestnuts with those too? Oh, wait, you already have some I see.

Sorry, I was using Gonzales words against him to illustrate his creative view of things.

Ok, he's a swell guy deserving our complete trust.

Feel better?
Your world must be dreadfully dull since you apparently only have the capability of seeing extremes and in black and white.

It's not about black and white. It's right and wrong. The world isn't black and white but that doesn't give someone the right, trying to stand on the moral high ground, to say or do the wrong thing.
Read that closely, then take it to heart. In fact, all the new liberals should think about that - roll it around on their tongue - and see if making that statement tastes like hypocrisy.

Flew right over your head didn't it.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
« Gonzales Defends His Position That The Geneva Conventions Do Not Always Apply And Should Be Renegotiated | Main | Washington Post Editorial: Gonzales Will Continue To Sanction Procedures That The International Red Cross Considers To Be Illegal And Improper »
http://www.onlisareinsradar.com/archives/002385.php


Imperial Hubris, indeed.