Bush Administration approved waterboarding in memos

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
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Why are these fvckers not in The Hague yet facing a war crimes tribunal? They invade a sovereign country that did not show any signs of aggression towards us on intelligence that they knew to be shaky at best and outright false at worst. They endorse torture. They hold foreign citizens indefinitely without charges or trials.

I think that they need a little dose of their own medicine personally.

CIA in CYA mode getting WH authorization to torture

The Bush administration issued a pair of secret memos to the CIA in 2003 and 2004 that explicitly endorsed the agency's use of interrogation techniques such as waterboarding against al-Qaeda suspects -- documents prompted by worries among intelligence officials about a possible backlash if details of the program became public.

The classified memos, which have not been previously disclosed, were requested by then-CIA Director George J. Tenet more than a year after the start of the secret interrogations, according to four administration and intelligence officials familiar with the documents. Although Justice Department lawyers, beginning in 2002, had signed off on the agency's interrogation methods, senior CIA officials were troubled that White House policymakers had never endorsed the program in writing.

The memos were the first -- and, for years, the only -- tangible expressions of the administration's consent for the CIA's use of harsh measures to extract information from captured al-Qaeda leaders, the sources said. As early as the spring of 2002, several White House officials, including then-national security adviser Condoleezza Rice and Vice President Cheney, were given individual briefings by Tenet and his deputies, the officials said. Rice, in a statement to congressional investigators last month, confirmed the briefings and acknowledged that the CIA director had pressed the White House for "policy approval."

The repeated requests for a paper trail reflected growing worries within the CIA that the administration might later distance itself from key decisions about the handling of captured al-Qaeda leaders, former intelligence officials said. The concerns grew more pronounced after the revelations of mistreatment of detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, and further still as tensions grew between the administration and its intelligence advisers over the conduct of the Iraq war.

"It came up in the daily meetings. We heard it from our field officers," said a former senior intelligence official familiar with the events. "We were already worried that we" were going to be blamed.

A. John Radsan, a lawyer in the CIA general counsel's office until 2004, remembered the discussions but did not personally view the memos the agency received in response to its concerns. "The question was whether we had enough 'top cover,' " Radsan said.

Tenet first pressed the White House for written approval in June 2003, during a meeting with members of the National Security Council, including Rice, the officials said. Days later, he got what he wanted: a brief memo conveying the administration's approval for the CIA's interrogation methods, the officials said.

Administration officials confirmed the existence of the memos, but neither they nor former intelligence officers would describe their contents in detail because they remain classified. The sources all spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not cleared to discuss the events.

The second request from Tenet, in June 2004, reflected growing worries among agency officials who had just witnessed the public outcry over the Abu Ghraib scandal. Officials who held senior posts at the time also spoke of deteriorating relations between the CIA and the White House over the war in Iraq -- a rift that prompted some to believe that the agency needed even more explicit proof of the administration's support.

"The CIA by this time is using the word 'insurgency' to describe the Iraq conflict, so the White House is viewing the agency with suspicion," said a second former senior intelligence official.

As recently as last month, the administration had never publicly acknowledged that its policymakers knew about the specific techniques, such as waterboarding, that the agency used against high-ranking terrorism suspects. In her unprecedented account to lawmakers last month, Rice, now secretary of state, portrayed the White House as initially uneasy about a controversial CIA plan for interrogating top al-Qaeda suspects.

After learning about waterboarding and similar tactics in early 2002, several White House officials questioned whether such harsh measures were "effective and necessary . . . and lawful," Rice said. Her concerns led to an investigation by the Justice Department's criminal division into whether the techniques were legal.

But whatever misgivings existed that spring were apparently overcome. Former and current CIA officials say no such reservations were voiced in their presence.

In interviews, the officials recounted a series of private briefings about the program with members of the administration's security team, including Rice and Cheney, followed by more formal meetings before a larger group including then-Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, then-White House counsel Alberto R. Gonzales and then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld. None of the officials recalled President Bush being present at any of the discussions.

Several of the key meetings have been previously described in news articles and books, but Rice last month became the first Cabinet-level official to publicly confirm the White House's awareness of the program in its earliest phases. In written responses to questions from the Senate Armed Services Committee, Rice said Tenet's description of the agency's interrogation methods prompted her to investigate further to see whether the program violated U.S. laws or international treaties, according to her written responses, dated Sept. 12 and released late last month.

"I asked that . . . Ashcroft personally advise the NSC principles whether the program was lawful," Rice wrote.

Current and former intelligence officials familiar with the briefings described Tenet as supportive of enhanced interrogation techniques, which the officials said were developed by CIA officers after the agency's first high-level captive, al-Qaeda operative Zayn al-Abidin Muhammed Hussein, better known as Abu Zubaida, refused to cooperate with interrogators.

The CIA believed then, and now, that the program was useful and helped save lives," said a former senior intelligence official knowledgeable about the events. "But in the agency's view, it was like this: 'We don't want to continue unless you tell us in writing that it's not only legal but is the policy of the administration.' "

One administration official familiar with the meetings said the CIA made such a convincing case that no one questioned whether the methods were necessary to prevent further terrorist attacks.

"The CIA had the White House boxed in," said the official. "They were saying, 'It's the only way to get the information we needed, and -- by the way -- we think there's another attack coming up.' It left the principals in an extremely difficult position and put the decision-making on a very fast track."

But others who were present said Tenet seemed more interested in protecting his subordinates than in selling the administration on a policy that administration lawyers had already authorized.

"The suggestion that someone from CIA came in and browbeat everybody is ridiculous," said one former agency official familiar with the meeting. "The CIA understood that it was controversial and would be widely criticized if it became public," the official said of the interrogation program. "But given the tenor of the times and the belief that more attacks were coming, they felt they had to do what they could to stop the attack."

The CIA's anxiety was partly fueled by the lack of explicit presidential authorization for the interrogation program. A secret White House "memorandum of notification" signed by Bush on Sept. 15, 2001, gave the agency broad authority to wage war against al-Qaeda, including killing and capturing its members. But it did not spell out how captives should be handled during interrogation.

But by the time the CIA requested written approval of its policy, in June 2003, the population of its secret prisons had grown from one to nine, including Khalid Sheik Mohammed, the alleged principal architect of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. Three of the detainees had been subjected to waterboarding, which involves strapping a prisoner to a board, covering his face and pouring water over his nose and mouth to simulate drowning.

By the spring of 2004, the concerns among agency officials had multiplied, in part because of shifting views among administration lawyers about what acts might constitute torture, leading Tenet to ask a second time for written confirmation from the White House. This time the reaction was far more reserved, recalled two former intelligence officials.

"The Justice Department in particular was resistant," said one former intelligence official who participated in the discussions. "They said it doesn't need to be in writing."


Tenet and his deputies made their case in yet another briefing before the White House national security team in June 2004. It was to be one of the last such meetings for Tenet, who had already announced plans to step down as CIA director. Author Jane Mayer, who described the briefing in her recent book, "The Dark Side," said the graphic accounts of interrogation appeared to make some participants uncomfortable. "History will not judge us kindly," Mayer quoted Ashcroft as saying.

Participants in the meeting did not recall whether a vote was taken. Several weeks passed, and Tenet left the agency without receiving a formal response.

Finally, in mid-July, a memo was forwarded to the CIA reaffirming the administration's backing for the interrogation program. Tenet had acquired the statement of support he sought.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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This space is reserved for possible future commentary once I read article.

From a quick browse through, I can't say I am entirely surprised. This administration doesn't seem to care too much about laws (domestic or international).
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Who is the jerk or jerks that signed these memo's authorizing torture? And no, the good German defense will not work for the tortures either.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?

I would guess it falls along the same lines with the armchair Jack Bauers believing that every non-American is a threat to eliminate the entire planet and must be stopped no matter what the methods used are.

I was about to type "Troll much?" and then I remembered who I was replying to and already knew my answer.

Care to actually comment on the legality/illegality of the actions by the administration or at the very least try to make an ethical case for why it is/was needed besides you would have to change your "I just pissed my panties again from the fear of threats that I felt" if they didn't?
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: winnar111
Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?

I would guess it falls along the same lines with the armchair Jack Bauers believing that every non-American is a threat to eliminate the entire planet and must be stopped no matter what the methods used are.

I was about to type "Troll much?" and then I remembered who I was replying to and already knew my answer.

Care to actually comment on the legality/illegality of the actions by the administration or at the very least try to make an ethical case for why it is/was needed besides you would have to change your "I just pissed my panties again from the fear of threats that I felt" if they didn't?

You didn't bold the most relevant pieces of the article:


One administration official familiar with the meetings said the CIA made such a convincing case that no one questioned whether the methods were necessary to prevent further terrorist attacks.

The CIA believed then, and now, that the program was useful and helped save lives," said a former senior intelligence official knowledgeable about the events.

"But given the tenor of the times and the belief that more attacks were coming, they felt they had to do what they could to stop the attack."
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?
Productive and creative interrogations do not require the harsher techniques, such as water-boarding... and trust me, I'm no "armchair James Bond." (Type "35M" into Google...)

I've wrestled with this exact moral issue for years, but I personally came to the conclusion that water-boarding is entirely unnecessary and inhumane.
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: winnar111
Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?
Productive and creative interrogations do not require the harsher techniques, such as water-boarding... and trust me, I'm no "armchair James Bond." (Type "35M" into Google...)

I've wrestled with this exact moral issue for years, but I personally came to the conclusion that water-boarding is entirely unnecessary and inhumane.

PH, I'm impressed.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
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Originally posted by: winnar111

Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?

Why do chickenshit chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think they know more about upholding the U.S. Constitution when their Triaitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals and war profiteers has repeatedly been outed for shredding the rights guaranteed to every American citizen under that once great, once honored document since the day they came to office and lying about it? :shocked:

What do chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think the President of the United States of America is bound to do when he taken this oath:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Remembering that the CIA is part of the executive branch of our government for which the President is directly responsible, what are the responsiblities of each and every member of the CIA? :confused:

Why do chickenshit chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think the CIA is blameless when they have repeatedly been proven to have violated U.S. and International laws against torture and other crimes against humanity and lying about it? :roll:

Why do chickenshit chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think we have a Constitution, at all, if its only purpose is to serve as a sad reminder that our leaders have shamefully squandered, frittered away and dispensed with the honor, integrity, the ideals and the very humanity of our citizens? :(

RIP - U.S. Constititution. 1789 - 2001
rose.gif
:(

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: palehorse

Productive and creative interrogations do not require the harsher techniques, such as water-boarding... and trust me, I'm no "armchair James Bond." (Type "35M" into Google...)

I've wrestled with this exact moral issue for years, but I personally came to the conclusion that water-boarding is entirely unnecessary and inhumane.

PH, I'm impressed.

Me, too, but I'm not suprised. I've spoken with palehorse often enough to know he's an ethical warrior who represents the best we have to offer doing heroic work to combat some of the most serious threats our nation has ever faced. :thumbsup:
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: winnar111

Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?

Why do chickenshit chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think they know more about upholding the U.S. Constitution when their Triaitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals and war profiteers has repeatedly been outed for shredding the rights guaranteed to every American citizen under that once great, once honored document since the day they came to office and lying about it? :shocked:

What do chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think the President of the United States of America is bound to do when he taken this oath:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Remembering that the CIA is part of the executive branch of our government for which the President is directly responsible, what are the responsiblities of each and every member of the CIA? :confused:

Why do chickenshit chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think the CIA is blameless when they have repeatedly been proven to have violated U.S. and International laws against torture and other crimes against humanity and lying about it? :roll:

Why do chickenshit chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think we have a Constitution, at all, if its only purpose is to serve as a sad reminder that our leaders have shamefully squandered, frittered away and dispensed with the honor, integrity, the ideals and the very humanity of our citizens? :(

RIP - U.S. Constititution. 1789 - 2001
rose.gif
:(

Khalid Shiekh Mohammed was an American citizen? News to me!

What are we supposed to be blaming the CIA for, exactly? Doing their jobs?

Besides, as the article points out, President Bush wasn't at the meeting, anyway.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: winnar111
Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?
Productive and creative interrogations do not require the harsher techniques, such as water-boarding... and trust me, I'm no "armchair James Bond." (Type "35M" into Google...)

I've wrestled with this exact moral issue for years, but I personally came to the conclusion that water-boarding is entirely unnecessary and inhumane.

You're certainly entitled to your own, qualified, opinion. And they're entitled to theirs.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: winnar111
Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?
Productive and creative interrogations do not require the harsher techniques, such as water-boarding... and trust me, I'm no "armchair James Bond." (Type "35M" into Google...)

I've wrestled with this exact moral issue for years, but I personally came to the conclusion that water-boarding is entirely unnecessary and inhumane.

PH, I'm impressed.
Me, too, we are seeing an evolution of palehorse in the past several months. :)

OK, patronizing aside, I am of the opinion that the US and world as a whole would do well to see a top official in the bush administration not only convicted by also incarcerated, if only for a short time, as a symbol about all that this administration has done in total offense to preconceptions most Americans and the world had about American justice. This administration has broken laws. It has conducted itself incompetently, but also dishonestly. I'm also sick with the idea that so many millions of Americans have since gone back on what they wouldn't have gone back on pre-boogeyman (terrorism). They condone torture, using the same arguments and mindsets as the secret police in any number of countries they demonize as unfree and unlearned. How are they different?
You're certainly entitled to your own, qualified, opinion. And they're entitled to theirs.
Nihilism for the fvcking lose.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: winnar111

Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?

Why do chickenshit chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think they know more about upholding the U.S. Constitution when their Triaitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers, war criminals and war profiteers has repeatedly been outed for shredding the rights guaranteed to every American citizen under that once great, once honored document since the day they came to office and lying about it? :shocked:

What do chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think the President of the United States of America is bound to do when he taken this oath:

I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Remembering that the CIA is part of the executive branch of our government for which the President is directly responsible, what are the responsiblities of each and every member of the CIA? :confused:

Why do chickenshit chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think the CIA is blameless when they have repeatedly been proven to have violated U.S. and International laws against torture and other crimes against humanity and lying about it? :roll:

Why do chickenshit chickenhawk neocon armchair warriors think we have a Constitution, at all, if its only purpose is to serve as a sad reminder that our leaders have shamefully squandered, frittered away and dispensed with the honor, integrity, the ideals and the very humanity of our citizens? :(

RIP - U.S. Constititution. 1789 - 2001
rose.gif
:(

Khalid Shiekh Mohammed was an American citizen? News to me!

What are we supposed to be blaming the CIA for, exactly? Doing their jobs?

Besides, as the article points out, President Bush wasn't at the meeting, anyway.

It's called Plausible Deniability, Weenar, to avoid a criminal prosecution.

Commander Codpiece will sacrifice a few grunts to maintain his legacy as 'The Decider'.

 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: winnar111

Khalid Shiekh Mohammed was an American citizen? News to me!

What are we supposed to be blaming the CIA for, exactly? Doing their jobs?

The job of the CIA does NOT include violating U.S. statutes and international treaties and laws against committing torture, war crimes and crimes against humanity. No President has the authortity to ignore or override those laws... PERIOD! :thumbsdown: :|

Khalid Shiekh Mohammed is one captive. You are in no position to know whether the information he gave could have been gained through legal means. You can't even know whether everything he said was true becaused coerced confessions are simply not reliable.

Khalid Shiekh Mohammed is not the only person the CIA has captured, imprisoned and tortured without being given any access to legal counsel. There are other known cases where innocent parties have suffered the same treatement, some of whom are American citizens. :shocked:

You don't defeat evil by becoming the evil you seek to defeat. When we hold ourselves out to the world as "the good guys." there is no excuse for such behavior that betrays our own image. :thumbsdown: :|

Besides, as the article points out, President Bush wasn't at the meeting, anyway.

1. Your Traitor In Chief is the head of the executive branch of the government of the United States of America. As such, he is directly and personally responsible for EVERYTHING that happens on his watch, including and especially memos issued under the color of the authority of the Whitehouse and especially for directives issued to others within the executive branch, including the CIA.

If you believe he did not know about "the meeting" or the content of the memos, then you believe he completety abandoned the responsiblities of his job, he SHOULD HAVE known, and his negligence still leaves him responsible for the crimes of torture and other war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by the CIA.

If you believe he did know about "the meeting" or the content of the memos, then he is equally as guilty of the crimes. They are only that much worse because he was an active participant in the actual abuse of other human beings.

George W. Bush and his entire criminal gang should be tried and convicted of their crimes sentenced to lifetime vacations at the beautiful downtown Guantanamo Hilton with free daily passes on the exciting waterboard ride.

They told us it isn't torture so we can believe them... right? :confused:

Let them be crash test dummies to prove it. :thumbsup:
 

351Cleveland

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2001
1,381
6
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I didnt read the article. I dont care to. I approve of waterboarding to protect this country.

Sorry.

PS: What specific part of the Constitution deals with waterboarding? I missed that article or admendment I guess.
 
Sep 12, 2004
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Originally posted by: Fern
Bush Administration approved waterboarding in memos

I thought this was common knowledge?

Fern
Yes, it's common knowledge. Also common knowledge is that quite a few Democrats were briefed about the waterboarding and gave their own thumbs up as well.

But there are certain people that are so bug-eyed about Bush that they seem to feel the need to wrap old news up in a brand new package and trot it out as some kind of "OMG!" story. Their single-mindedness is pathetic.

Bush is old news. It's time to move on and look forward, not back.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
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Originally posted by: 351Cleveland
I didnt read the article. I dont care to. I approve of waterboarding to protect this country.

Sorry.

PS: What specific part of the Constitution deals with waterboarding? I missed that article or admendment I guess.

It's the part that says that Congress makes all laws and treaties. We (Congress) entered into a treaty that included human rights violations and war crimes for those that commit and/or order torture.

After WWII, we were members of a panel that convicted Japanese officials of torture based on their practice of....drumroll.....waterboarding.

But feel free to remain ignorant and hiding under your bed out of fear of the boogie man terrorist that hates you for your freedoms (which you are so happily willing to give up) so that "The Decider" can keep you safe for three more months. After that, there will be a Dem in the White House and you can be sure that they will appease the terrorists and allow them to come and pull you out from under your bed and kill you. /sarcasm
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
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Originally posted by: 351Cleveland
I didnt read the article. I dont care to. I approve of waterboarding to protect this country.

Sorry.

PS: What specific part of the Constitution deals with waterboarding? I missed that article or admendment I guess.

I didn't give your comments much credence. I don't care to. I approve waterboarding of you to protect our freedoms.

Sorry.

PS: It doesn't need to be in the Constitution to know that torture is/should be illegal in any freedom loving country.
 
Feb 16, 2005
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Originally posted by: 351Cleveland
I didnt read the article. I dont care to. I approve of waterboarding to protect this country.

Sorry.

PS: What specific part of the Constitution deals with waterboarding? I missed that article or admendment I guess.

Well, as long as you didn't read the article, your opinion should equate that much respect.
And what about other countries? What if another country thought exactly like you, would you respect their 'just' cause to obtain information?
Waterboarding doesn't protect this country, it damages it. Any form of torture on an enemy combatant is a blemish on all US citizens. I am disgusted and saddened by this administration and I cannot wait for them to get the fuck out, and have some people prosecute the hell out of them. dumbya and dickie rotting in jail for life would be a start.
 
Dec 26, 2007
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I fail to see why people keep thinking torture works.

It doesn't. It's been shown through numerous studies that torture doesn't work, and there are other far more effective means of obtaining information.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
I fail to see why people keep thinking torture works.

It doesn't. It's been shown through numerous studies that torture doesn't work, and there are other far more effective means of obtaining information.

"Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?"
 

GarfieldtheCat

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2005
3,708
1
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Originally posted by: winnar111
Originally posted by: DisgruntledVirus
I fail to see why people keep thinking torture works.

It doesn't. It's been shown through numerous studies that torture doesn't work, and there are other far more effective means of obtaining information.

"Why do the armchair James Bonds think they know more about interrogation than the CIA?"

What makes you think the CIA actually tells the truth? Their track record as *not* been good.

And BTW, read some real articles....lot's of current and ex-interrogators have said that it is torture and should not be used.