Bush Admin gave teh oil industry fifteen billion dollars TO RESEARCH alternative fuels

[Stunt]

Depends whether this was money for alternate energy sources OR to research and develop more costly/domestic energy sources.

I remember Bush campaigning on energy independence from oil rich dictators of the world; and was a hugely popular idea. Unfortunately in a global market and with a commodity like oil, the natural tendency is to always produce and consume the cheapest reserves; customers demand this, and it is no different than any other company out there.

Forcing a company to work a less efficient way for the sake of politics or general public demand is not unheard of in other sectors. I mean just think of all the projects subsidized by the government...is it that radical that a government would give money to a corporation to help in its goals? Of course not.

We need more information before people jump to conclusions. It's not like this money is being handed to companies to help their profit margins.:roll:

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Would you rather this money be spent on 7.5 more Stealth aircraft, or on the hope of reducing the need for things like Stealth aircraft? The energy crisis is one of the biggest underlying problems we face in international affairs (besides reducing our overall efficiency-- free health care anyone?). If there were enough oversight to guarantee useful results, wouldn't it be money well spent?

read the rest of my posts in this thread. I have no problem with funding the research. My only problem is with the parties receiving this grant. I believe that the research should be done by a collection of unbiased scientists and engineers at one of our many research labs.

There's a large amount of research that is at least as well done by the companies themselves, and probably better. They're the ones that build and maintain the technology in the world's most complex machinery (oil refineries). The application research, not the theoretical stuff, is what I'm talking about. These companies would have to, for instance, participate in a plan for transitioning the nation's gas stations to different output, a huge undertaking in itself. Logistics research is part of it, and so are many other areas-- it's not just chemistry and physics.

It may seem naive to some, but I maintain that it is possible for companies to do useful research, especially with a proper incentive, in the face of a small future conflict with their present interests. This conflict is overstated IMHO. If the energy market is changing (it is), it is in the best interests of every company to stay competitive by investing in new tech early and heavily. Anyone who thinks these companies aren't already researching alternative sources is foolish-- this is something one should almost know without knowing.

If there is appropriate oversight to guarantee the money won't be wasted, are you still wholeheartedly against it, or is the question one of efficiency for you? There's no way, you must admit, that energy companies would take such a large grant and return absolutely nothing, even if they were so foolishly in the now that they refused to take full advantage of the opportunity.

all of that is fine and dandy as long as they fund their own research. Our government, however, should be funding its own research efforts instead of subsidizing the research done by the oil (energy) companies.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
Government has done hardly anything about this research for years, and now it's going to do something by giving the money to Big Oil. The Manhattan Project was done by people who believed in their cause, fighting against an evil axis. It was "get to the atomic bomb first or we're doomed." The Apollo program was done by people who wanted to see mankind reach the moon and to show the Soviets what's what. The Alternative Energy research is going to be done by people who... already make a killing on oil?

i disagree... I believe that the need and beliefs are just as compelling as those for the Apollo Program dn Manhatten Project... as in, "become totally energy independent or we're doomed."

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny

Originally posted by: palehorse74
our government should be doing the research internally instead of funding 3rd parties who themselves do not even need the extra funding; and who also have obviously selfish intentions.

Hell, the Manhatten Project is a great example of how efficient the Federal Government canbe in terms of internal research. All we need to do is collect the best engineers and scientists in the fields involved, and put them up in one of our many research facilities until they find a solution. They should work around the clock and nail this thing down once and for all.

Like I said, regardless of how hard the oil companies may work toward a solution, their intentions would be very selfish. We need a research group whose only intent is to provide the U.S. with a viable solution. I'm sure it wouldnt be too hard to find a group of scientists to do this job...

I think the Manhattan Project was a totally different thing. There was a very real need to develop the atomic bomb, thus the efficiency.

Efficiency comes from a desire and a need to do something, with a very healthy dose of a desire to profit from the venture.

Does our government have a sincere desire to research alternative fuels?
Does our government have a sincere need to research alternative fuels?

I wish alternative fuel research could be like AMD/Intel or nVidia/ATI's competition-style, but I'm afraid there's neither the desire nor the financial incentive nor the market demand to do such a thing as of yet. I for one feel that we are long overdue for a sincere, massive alternative fuel research venture.

You don't think there is a need to get serious about alternative fuels research? Just because it can't (yet) be expressed in terms of economic incentives doesn't mean the need doesn't exist, that's why it's the perfect thing for the government to be involved with. There are a lot of things the free market is great at, but it isn't some magical system that solves all our problems...the areas where it falls short are EXACTLY the areas the government can do the most good. The Manhattan Project and the Apollo Program are good examples of this, the financial incentives for those accomplishments would never have been supported by a free market operation, yet I don't think many people would dispute their need.

I think there is an absolute need to get serious about this research. If you read my post you'd have found that I wished this research had started in earnest a long time ago. I wish government would have stepped in a long time ago, even raised taxes, so that we would have better, cleaner, more efficient energy today.

Government has done hardly anything about this research for years, and now it's going to do something by giving the money to Big Oil. The Manhattan Project was done by people who believed in their cause, fighting against an evil axis. It was "get to the atomic bomb first or we're doomed." The Apollo program was done by people who wanted to see mankind reach the moon and to show the Soviets what's what. The Alternative Energy research is going to be done by people who... already make a killing on oil?

I have absolutely no problem spending the money on this research. I understand that the government needs to step in and tell someone to do it, because the market's not going to do it, but the government needs to give the task to a group that has an interest in seeing the technology grow, and immediately. I'm not certain if the oil industry is the correct group to give this project to. I hardly think clean, affordable energy is on their minds.

Uh, what? I AM arguing that the government should step up to the plate and form a group to look into this and that money spent there is better than just giving it to the oil industry. You're the one who seems to be suggesting that the government isn't up to the task.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I thought we all wanted alternative fuels?

Why would an industry like the oil industry that is making TONS of money invest into research that would cause them to make less money? Do you understand that?

If we double the gas mileage of every car on the road then that is half as much gas being sold and therefore half as much profit.

It's like asking McDonalds to research ways of making people eat less fast food.

Technically, over the years, we have more than doubled the gas mileage of cars. We've also made them a lot more powerful and a lot heavier (largely safety equipment). The truth is, it is in the best interest of these companies to find alternatives. It is inevitable that we will one day turn off the tap on oil. It may take a while, but it will happen. Then again, that's telling a business that the longterm welfare of a company is more important than the most recent quarterly earnings.

 

[6000SUX]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 6000SUX

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 6000SUX
Would you rather this money be spent on 7.5 more Stealth aircraft, or on the hope of reducing the need for things like Stealth aircraft? The energy crisis is one of the biggest underlying problems we face in international affairs (besides reducing our overall efficiency-- free health care anyone?). If there were enough oversight to guarantee useful results, wouldn't it be money well spent?

read the rest of my posts in this thread. I have no problem with funding the research. My only problem is with the parties receiving this grant. I believe that the research should be done by a collection of unbiased scientists and engineers at one of our many research labs.

There's a large amount of research that is at least as well done by the companies themselves, and probably better. They're the ones that build and maintain the technology in the world's most complex machinery (oil refineries). The application research, not the theoretical stuff, is what I'm talking about. These companies would have to, for instance, participate in a plan for transitioning the nation's gas stations to different output, a huge undertaking in itself. Logistics research is part of it, and so are many other areas-- it's not just chemistry and physics.

It may seem naive to some, but I maintain that it is possible for companies to do useful research, especially with a proper incentive, in the face of a small future conflict with their present interests. This conflict is overstated IMHO. If the energy market is changing (it is), it is in the best interests of every company to stay competitive by investing in new tech early and heavily. Anyone who thinks these companies aren't already researching alternative sources is foolish-- this is something one should almost know without knowing.

If there is appropriate oversight to guarantee the money won't be wasted, are you still wholeheartedly against it, or is the question one of efficiency for you? There's no way, you must admit, that energy companies would take such a large grant and return absolutely nothing, even if they were so foolishly in the now that they refused to take full advantage of the opportunity.

all of that is fine and dandy as long as they fund their own research. Our government, however, should be funding its own research efforts instead of subsidizing the research done by the oil (energy) companies.

That's a too-broad statement. The government has a long history of subsidizing private research. You haven't given a good reason why it should necessarily be different in this case. In addition, the government IS funding its own research (research towards its goals) here; instead of being done by private universities, it will be done by private corporations. Much or most of the world's useful research is NOT performed directly by government workers.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
i disagree... I believe that the need and beliefs are just as compelling as those for the Apollo Program dn Manhatten Project... as in, "become totally energy independent or we're doomed."

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Uh, what? I AM arguing that the government should step up to the plate and form a group to look into this and that money spent there is better than just giving it to the oil industry. You're the one who seems to be suggesting that the government isn't up to the task.

I don't know if our government IS up to the task. We are lacking a lot of the solidarity and efficiency that we had back in the Manhattan Project and Apollo years. The beliefs may be compelling for people like you and me, but is it all that compelling to the people who actually make policy? Can we trust them in this day and age to use our money to the maximum benefit? Not to mention a lot of the general populace frankly seem ambivalent to the issue of energy independence. Just look at the number of people who still drive and buy cars that get 15-20mpg and spout off "you can't tell me what I can and can't do with my money" and to a lot of the wealthy and upper middle class that doesn't matter because $100+ to fill up a tank of gas is affordable for them.

Not to mention I feel that our government has gotten a lot dumber and more unwieldy than the early years. I just don't know if they're putting this funding in the right place.

EDIT: But hey, I could be wrong. Maybe the oil companies are genuinely concerned about the longevity of oil and will work efficiently to bring out alternatives. Maybe since they're already in the business of energy, they're actually the best choice because they already have lots of the infrastructure laid out and the experience to conduct this research.