burglary now punishable by death in texas

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Kerouactivist

Diamond Member
Jul 12, 2001
4,665
0
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Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Nothing's wrong with it, everything worked perfectly. An excellent decision all around.

You have the right to stop crimes in progress, you have the right to protect yourself. The question, which remains unanswered to me, is 'did they threaten Joe Horn once he was outside'? If they did then he was right. Even if they didn't the fact that the jury refused to put him on trial is completely legal and correct and the reason we have the system we do.

It is ALWAYS good for the criminal to die. Always.

I hope that you never speed when driving because if you do you're a criminal....So I guess I'll just start a vigilante crew of people that drives around shooting people that are breaking traffic law....since it's ALWAYS good for the criminals to die...geeez



 

GenHoth

Platinum Member
Jul 5, 2007
2,106
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Originally posted by: bthorny
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Nothing's wrong with it, everything worked perfectly. An excellent decision all around.

You have the right to stop crimes in progress, you have the right to protect yourself. The question, which remains unanswered to me, is 'did they threaten Joe Horn once he was outside'? If they did then he was right. Even if they didn't the fact that the jury refused to put him on trial is completely legal and correct and the reason we have the system we do.

It is ALWAYS good for the criminal to die. Always.

I hope that you never speed when driving because if you do you're a criminal....So I guess I'll just start a vigilante crew of people that drives around shooting people that are breaking traffic law....since it's ALWAYS good for the criminals to die...geeez

lol, someone missed out on the other guy trying the same weak tactic.
 

Drift3r

Guest
Jun 3, 2003
3,572
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The simple solution to all this?

Answer: Don't go around breaking into other peoples homes.

I am sure this guy didn't wake up thinking...."Hey you know what? I need to shoot someone today." Now the two burglars who got shot more then likely had talked about and planned to go break into this home from the start.
 

OFFascist

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
985
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Good shoot. I'm glad I live in a state where we take personal protection and property rights seriously.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,555
9,907
146
Originally posted by: OFFascist
Good shoot. I'm glad I live in a state where we take personal protection and property rights seriously.

Yes, yes, your sig says it all! :roll:

 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
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Originally posted by: RichardE
Good decision!

But but, haven't you ever broken the speed limit or shoplifted????

Is death an appropriate punishment, you fascist bastard? Well is it???

:laugh:
 

whylaff

Senior member
Oct 31, 2007
200
0
0
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: bctbct
Text

Audio to remind everyone how this psycho planned on killing these criminals before he left his house.
Apparently premeditated murder is fine if you live in a state like Texas with legal loopholes. Killing someone is as easy as luring them onto your property and provoking a threatening action. :confused:
By the way, did anybody catch this? :p

"and the laws have been changed in this country since September the 1st"

Was he trying to refer to 9/11, or something else?

He was refering to the personal protection laws that changed on September 1st in Texas.

Text
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,220
654
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I don't know about you guys, but I see something overly cowardly about shooting two men in their backs. I can see how it might happen with one (quick reaction), but to shoot the second guy that way? Just smells like a reason to kill to me.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
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Originally posted by: jman19
I don't know about you guys, but I see something overly cowardly about shooting two men in their backs. I can see how it might happen with one (quick reaction), but to shoot the second guy that way? Just smells like a reason to kill to me.

Um, don't try and steal anothers personal property?

Particularly in a local that makes it legal for someone to shoot you while doing so.
 

Pliablemoose

Lifer
Oct 11, 1999
25,195
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Originally posted by: jman19
I don't know about you guys, but I see something overly cowardly about shooting two men in their backs. I can see how it might happen with one (quick reaction), but to shoot the second guy that way? Just smells like a reason to kill to me.

I dunno what it's like where you live, but burglary is rampant in Texas, lots of the burglaries turn violent, and we're developing 0 tolerance for this kind of shit.

I also don't personally know a soul that gives a flying f*ck about illegal immigrant career criminals.
 

dmw16

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 2000
7,608
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This guy makes me sick! He was told by the 911 operator to wait for the police, but he chose to take justice into his own hands and that is a slippery slope. Is death a reasonable punishment for robbery? I don't think it is, and neither does the constitution.

The robbers were shot in the back, which to me would indicate they were no threat.

As a gun owner this pisses me off to no end because this guy makes all gun owners like vigilante assholes.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
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Originally posted by: Drift3r
The simple solution to all this?

Answer: Don't go around breaking into other peoples homes.

I am sure this guy didn't wake up thinking...."Hey you know what I need to shoot someone today." unlike those other 2 guys who more then likely had talked about and planned to go break into home belonging to another person.

In case you missed it ...

On the 9-1-1 phone call Mr. Horn told the dispatcher he was going to go outside and kill them.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
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Originally posted by: ericlp
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

It is ALWAYS good for the criminal to die. Always.

Do you ever speed?

Can you imagine coming back home from a long deserved vacation and your door kicked in and your stuff gone?

Would that make you mad? What if your neighbor shot the intruders and killed one. How would you feel? And all your stuff they had in the back of a moving van was safely down at the police station. Would you say thank god all my paper work, computers, TV and what not or would you march your sorry ass over to your neighbors house with a tear in your eye asking him why he shot them and he should have just let them get away with all your stuff...

Would this be OK with you? I guess I find that any asshole that is going to disrespect my property and try to steal from me ... should pay the price of being shot, and if they die well, the way I look it ... ONE LESS retarded scum of society.

I guess this is just my opinion. People that do these certain crimes yes, that even includes stealing your car, and breaking into your car to get your CD player should deserve the same fate.

Or are we suppose to just stand back and watch all these whacks just steal from us blindly? Someone has to take a stand and if your stupid enough to rob people then be prepared for the consequences.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. I think the country is too soft of stealing. That's why every house has an alarm system and 3 dogs etc....etc...etc.... I guess just triple up on the insurance and hope they don't pay a visit to you.

Actually, it would be ok if my stuff was gone. I would certainly be upset and mad, but I still would not want the person(s) who stole immaterial items to be put to death for it.

If I or my family were home, I would certainly defend myself or them. I would have no problems with deadly force either if the situation warranted it. This situation and the one that you described most certainly do not.

I pay an awful lot of home owner's insurance for the simple reason of replacing anything that was stolen. Yes, if the computer was gone certain things on it would seem irreplaceable. But then again, I am a sys admin that knows the benefit of offline storage so I wouldn't be missing as much as the "normal" person.

Originally posted by: daniel1113

There should be no qualifications necessary for one to defend his/her life and property. That's a basic right.

I agree. However, this wasn't his life that was threatened (until his own stupidity and desire to shoot someone put his life in any danger) nor was it his property.

Originally posted by: woodie1
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: MustISO
Maybe if more people got killed for committing crimes there would be less crimes committed. Certainly there might be less people willing to take that chance.

You do realize that Texas has the most executions every single year and is not in the top ten in crimes per capita?

And you do not see the relationship? We don't put up with this bull. Plain and simple.

Just what is your point? Whether "we" put up with it or not has no bearing on crime nor is it obviously a deterrent. In 2004, Texas ranked 12 in violent crimes per capita (the bad twelfth not the good twelfth).

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: ohnoes
this situation is a bit different though. Its not that he was coming into his own home, but a neighbors. The discussion in the thread isn't really about self-defense, but rather the deadly use of force to prevent felonies, which was what the guy did.

Only if he fired without being threatened in any way. If they threatened first, at all, it's still self-defense. The fact that he went out to interrupt a felony is disconnected from the fact of the shooting IF there was an intervening threat escalating it to self-defense.

What danger was he in from the second man that was running away?

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
Originally posted by: jman19
I don't know about you guys, but I see something overly cowardly about shooting two men in their backs. I can see how it might happen with one (quick reaction), but to shoot the second guy that way? Just smells like a reason to kill to me.

I dunno what it's like where you live, but burglary is rampant in Texas, lots of the burglaries turn violent, and we're developing 0 tolerance for this kind of shit.

I also don't personally know a soul that gives a flying f*ck about illegal immigrant career criminals.

But, but, but....I thought that our trigger happy population and willingness to execute for the smallest crime were deterrents?


 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
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Originally posted by: Dari
I'd rather my neighbor kill a burgular than have the burgular kill me.

the Burgular only steals hamburgers and reports of him being violent are spread by Ronald McDonald when he's high
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
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Those of us who know Texas law predicted this outcome 7 months ago. See the other thread, it's a higher quality thread anyway, where we actually quoted the law regarding the use of deadly force to protect property.

I think it's shocking that we've come to live in such a litigious and "criminal friendly" society that most people will do absolutely nothing to stop a crime, except for those brave souls who call 911. That's not the way things are supposed to be. If you see someone doing something wrong, it is your duty as a member of society to intervene as best you're able. The fact that a 70 year old man did the best he could to stop these criminals while most of the 20-somethings on this board would wet themselves and maybe dial 911 (or rush to OT and post "Somebody is breaking into my neighbors house! What do I do?") is sickening. Society is what we make of it.

Joe Horn gave the bad guys a clear choice, stop or die. They continued to carry out their felony, and they were killed. There's nothing else that Joe could do. He couldn't wrestle 2 young men to the ground himself. He did his best to make the world a just place. And some of these recent news stories seem to neglect the fact that these career criminals had a bag with $20,000 in cash and jewelry stolen from Joe's neighbors.

We need more people like Joe Horn, who stand up for what's right, and take action when people do wrong. "The police are the people and the people are the police." - Sir Robert Peel
 
Aug 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: Double Trouble
Originally posted by: loki8481
seriously, what the hell is wrong with this state?

Texas man cleared in shooting of possible burglars

HOUSTON (AP) ? A Texas man who shot and killed two men he suspected of burglarizing his neighbor's home cleared in the shootings Monday by a grand jury.

Joe Horn, 61, shot the two men in November after he saw them crawling out the windows of a neighbor's house in the Houston suburb of Pasadena.

Horn called 911 and told the dispatcher he had a shotgun and was going to kill the men. The dispatcher pleaded with him not to go outside, but Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back.

"The message we're trying to send today is the criminal justice system works," Harris County District Attorney Kenneth Magidson said.

Horn's attorney, Tom Lambright, has said his client believed the two men had broken into his neighbor's home and that he shot them only when they came into his yard and threatened him.

The suspected burglars, Hernando Riascos Torres, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were unemployed illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after a 1994 cocaine-related conviction.

The episode touched off protests from civil rights activists who said the shooting was racially motivated and that Horn took the law into his own hands. Horn's supporters defended his actions, saying he was protecting himself and being a good neighbor to a homeowner who was out of town.

"I understand the concerns of some in the community regarding Mr. Horn's conduct," Magidson said. "The use of deadly force is carefully limited in Texas law to certain circumstances ... In this case, however, the grand jury concluded that Mr. Horn's use of deadly force did not rise to a criminal offense."

Lambright did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment from The Associated Press.

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they are in mortal danger. In limited circumstances, people also can use deadly force to protect a neighbor's property; for example, if a homeowner asks a neighbor to watch over his property while he's out of town.

It's not clear whether the neighbor whose home was burglarized asked Horn to watch over his house.

http://ap.google.com/article/A...6y5d66X8hodrwD91KJA7G1

I guess it's OK when the dead are brown.

this shit blows my mind... how the hell can we justify a guy walking out of his house, in cold blood, with the cops already on their way there, and murdering two guys on his neighbor's property? his life wasn't in danger, his neighbor's life wasn't in danger... was what they were doing wrong? of course. did it warrant getting executed on the spot? wtf.

I went ahead and bolded the relevant part that you seem to ignore. I wasn't there, and I don't know the details of the case, but the defendant claims the two criminals threatened him. Personally, if I was on the jury, I'd be inclined to believe the story of the homeowner over the criminals, but I don't see how he explained shooting them in the back. Perhaps they threatened to come back later and harm him or his family, in which case I have no problem with him doing what he did. Either way, good riddance to two criminals, they won't be committing any more crimes any time soon! :thumbsup:

If you listen to the interview with the Police chief, he states that the wounds are not square in the back, but at an angle indicating that they were hit while turning.
Either way, in the State of Texas, penal code allows for the use of deadly force to defend anothers property.
If you don't like the law, don't come to Texas or don't burglarize peoples homes and businesses in Texas.
The reasoning I feel that is behind it is if you confront or are confronted by a CRIMINAL chances are they aren't going to want to go to jail, and they will kill you to prevent that. You can not debate the issue with them at that moment. It's you or him. In my book and in most Texans, a law abiding citizens life is more important than a criminal's life.
If you don't like it move to Europe or Canada where they've given the OK for you to lay down and die if you ever confront a criminal because If you try to defend yourself you will go to jail for a longer time than the criminal.

In this perfect world that you dream about things like this wouldn't be necissary, but we do not live in a perfect world and the world will never be perfect. You will never be able to rid society of people that want other peoples stuff.

 
Aug 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Originally posted by: Dari
I'd rather my neighbor kill a burgular than have the burgular kill me.

But they weren't armed and weren't going to kill anyone.

That doesn't matter. The real question is if a reasonable person would have believed that his/her life was in danger, and the jury clearly decided that was true.

If he followed the advice of the 911 operator, he would have stayed inside and been in no danger at all. Oh and let's not forget, he did not have permission from his neighbor to defend his property.

Should have put the murder in jail with the rest of his kind.

What the fuck ever. The neighbors were interviewed and they stated they were glad he defended their property. But the technicality of this case is the 2 CRIMINALS were on Joe Horns property at the time of the offense which gave him justification to defend himself. They were on his property and posed a threat to him. He is a 61 year old man, they were much younger and would have easily killed him with their bare hands.

I raise my :beer: to salute Joe Horn.
 
Aug 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: frostedflakes
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Not at all.

Do you KNOW they were no threat? Do we have an absolute report of what happened once he went outside? Because if they threatened him in ANY way he was justified.

Even if not (in which case his actions WERE illegal and morally questionable) the law was followed completely. He was brought to a grand jury, they said he's free, that's the end of it. I totally support that decision as, regardless of the legality of his actions, two absolutely horrible wastes of human flesh will no longer plague the world and I celebrate that. I just wish every criminal like them would face the same fate.
What don't you understand about shooting someone in the back. If you shoot them in the back, they are not facing you. That means they are running away from you, and not running at you. How is a person running away from you a threat? :confused:

Do you have the IQ of a kumquat?

Having your back to someone is NOT running away from them, and even if it is if it happened subsequent to a threat and during the process of firing the weapon there is no question that it was justified.

In other words:

A man with a shotgun goes out and says stop, the police are on the way.

One or both of the criminals says "we'll fucking kill you old man" and takes a step towards him.

The man raises the shotgun to defend his life, believing that he is reasonably in danger.

As he does so the two men naturally stop their forward movement and begin to turn away.

The man, already committed to an action which takes only a second or two to complete, fires the gun at the two threats.

The end result is a lawful shooting, despite the fact that the criminals were hit in the back.

I'm not saying that IS what happened, I'm saying that COULD happen, and if you don't have proof, if there is reasonable doubt, then you MUST side with the good guy against the KNOWN criminals.
Fortunately, we have the eyewitness testimony of a police officer.

http://patterico.com/2007/12/07/joe-horn-has-a-problem/

He *may* have been justified in shooting the first burglar, but the second burglar was obviously fleeing and no threat at all. And fortunately this nutjob didn't go after the plainclothes officer parked out front, if he had killed a police officer he'd surely be in jail.

Wrong again. He is justified under state penal code to "stop" someone from fleeing the scene of a burglary if he believes that there is no other way of recovering the stolen property.
 
Aug 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Good excuse to be a vigilante. I'll walk around the city with my shotgun and when I see a crime, I'll charge and I'll be defending myself.

As much as I would love to see the day when that is allowed (and welcomed), there is a huge difference between stopping a crime that occurs around someone's home and patrolling around the town waiting for crimes to occur.

Well technically in Texas you could do that. Since we have open carry laws for shotguns and rifles. As long as you are not carrying it hoping to causes fear or a disturbance you are in the clear. :D
 

daniel1113

Diamond Member
Jun 6, 2003
6,448
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Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: daniel1113
Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Good excuse to be a vigilante. I'll walk around the city with my shotgun and when I see a crime, I'll charge and I'll be defending myself.

As much as I would love to see the day when that is allowed (and welcomed), there is a huge difference between stopping a crime that occurs around someone's home and patrolling around the town waiting for crimes to occur.

Well technically in Texas you could do that. Since we have open carry laws for shotguns and rifles. As long as you are not carrying it hoping to causes fear or a disturbance you are in the clear. :D

I wasn't addressing open carry, which is allowed in most states. Hell, most states allows one to open carry a handgun. Even Texas doesn't allow that, which is a real shame.

I was merely addressing the difference between looking for a crime to stop and a stopping a crime that occurs on or near one's property.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
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This is one of a many reasons I will never live in Texas. I do not want a bunch of gun slinging vigilantes for neighbors firing rounds into my property despite their best intentions. People make mistakes and those mistakes in this kind of scenario could place my family in great danger.