building sff opinions!

NEWYORKJETS000

Golden Member
Sep 26, 2005
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im looking at building a sff pc. the cpus im looking at our these two.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819103871
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-065-_-Product

some people i have talked to say the amd is faster with 4 cores and some say the intel with hyperthreading? im stuck with what cpu to go with. i prefer amd over intel. but there are way more boards for matx for intel then amd. i have looked at some mini itx and found a couple i liked.

as far as cases i always liked that lian li matx case they came out with a few years ago v300?
they dont sell it anymore though so if you have a suggestion for a nice cube case lian li or silverstone lemme know...

thanks in advance!
 
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DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
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What will you do with it?

A silent work PC is a completely different build from a gaming PC, which is different from a HTPC (and HTPC has playback-only vs. tuner/recording variants).

What kind of budget?
 

fffblackmage

Platinum Member
Dec 28, 2007
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What is your budget and what are you doing with this computer?

edit: hah, a few seconds late.
 

NEWYORKJETS000

Golden Member
Sep 26, 2005
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i do some photoshop and multitask alot! not really gaming, not a htpc it will br my main pc. i do like to hook my pc to my tv to watch movies though. i have a dvi to hdmi cable i use. cheaper is better would like to try and do around 400, but gimme some suggestions.
 

fffblackmage

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Dec 28, 2007
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NEWYORKJETS000

Golden Member
Sep 26, 2005
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i like that one as well.. im still 50/50 if i want a matx or a slightly bigger one like the LIAN LI Lancool PC-K56W.. neither one of them have psu so will have to add that in.
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
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I'm not sure if that APEX case is a good one.

It is a mixed bag.

GOOD
Cheap
Small
Shiny
Works well either horizontally or vertically
Uses "normal" sized drives, not notebook drives (cheaper)
Full height expansion slot

BAD
PSU is shady, likely inefficient and unable to put out power listed on label
PSU fan is the SOLE source of case ventilation
CPU heatsink/fan can't be more than about 2" tall before it hits the PSU fan

MEDIOCRE
Nothing done to make stuff quieter
PSU is SFX sized, but can't use SFX PSUs with protruding fans (like Seasonic 300W)
Only around 1" space between a short optical drive and the PSU, barely room for cables

BTW the same case has been sold under Rosewill and Thermaltake brands. Notable is the fact that even though Thermaltake is known to overrate their PSUs (for instance TR430 is really a 350W PSU) they downrated the same 250W PSU to around 220W.


That is a big ATX mid tower. Nothing SFF about it.
 

Zap

Elite Member
Oct 13, 1999
22,377
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81

What for? People will see this thread when they see it. It isn't as if this area is a hotbed of activity. This is "SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones PCs" and not "For Sale/Trade." Before my earlier reply I haven't been on the forums since Thursday, and this thread was still in the top 10.
 

fffblackmage

Platinum Member
Dec 28, 2007
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It is a mixed bag.
Hmmm... I thought that might be the case. I guess the only real selling point is the price, and even then, you get what you pay for.

If you want more feedback/advice, "General Hardware" has more activity and includes several regulars who help others with their builds. You could either start a new thread or request to have this thread moved over there.



A summary of the mATX build we discussed via PM:

$100 - AMD Athlon II X4 640
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...&SID=u00000687

$60 - ASRock 880GM-LE (mATX mobo)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813157199

$105 AR - Galaxy GeForce GTX 460 768MB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814162058

$38 - Mushkin Enhanced Essentials 2x2GB DDR3 1333
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...&SID=u00000687

$43 - SAMSUNG Spinpoint F4 HD322GJ/U 320GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...&SID=u00000687

$30 - Rosewill R102-P-BK (mATX Case)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811147111

$39 AR&P - Antec NEO ECO 520C
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371030

$17 - LG DVD Burner
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...&SID=u00000687

Total = $432 after rebate and promo code.

I know you're thinking of getting the ~$70 Lian-li now, but I feel that if you want to pay that much for a case, you might as well get a good SFF case. Otherwise, for an mATX case, cheaper seems better, since you're not getting any special feature like SFF. Up to you though.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
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^ nice list for a budget build. 120mm exhaust fan = good cooling, and the steel case might also be a little quieter than thin aluminum.

That's also about the smallest mATX case you can make to use a standard PSU and full-height card slots.
 

flensr

Member
May 28, 2009
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For what it's worth, I've had better luck with intel systems. All of my AMD systems required "fiddling" to get them stable, but none of my intel systems required any more fiddling than slapping them together and installing the basic drivers, most of which are included in most OS distributions. Every one of my AMD systems ended getting parted out due to instability, and those same components that seemed to be flaky in the AMD system worked fine when matched to an intel cpu and compatible mobo.

I only bring this up because for an SFF build, troubleshooting can be a total pain due to the small case and time consumed building and rebuilding out of the small case. For a system I don't want to crack open again, I use high quality components and an intel cpu, simply because even when the price/performance favors an AMD solution, I can't afford the time to spend troubleshooting.

Yes, this is just my own experience. Lots of AMD users are going to say I'm a hater, but no-kidding, I have owned several AMD based systems in the past because back when I had time to spend on messing with my computers, I really liked the price and performance of the AMD solutions. But on average I had to open up the case on my AMD systems at least once a month, and spend time booting/rebooting and changing drivers or other settings at least once every other week. On my current socket 775 system, I opened the case 3 times in 2 years. Once to clean out the filters and blow dust from heatsinks, once to upgrade my hard drive, and once to upgrade my cpu from dual to quad core. That's it for system maintenance. Yea I paid more for the parts but I have saved hundreds of hours of my time. My last socket 939 system was super fast when I bought it, but I went through 3 PSUs, 2 mobos, 3 cpus, 3 sets of memory, 2 HDs, 2 NICs, and 3 video cards, not to mention hours and hours finding driver combinations that would keep away the BSOD monster and put off HD data corruption. Oh yea, I had to restore from backups 5 times too, with the AMD system. I haven't done that ONCE with my intel system, and haven't swapped out a single component either.

My HTPC uses all of the surviving components from my last AMD system, and they work great... for a few days, then the system hangs, even with a fresh OS install. That's just fine for HTPC use since I don't use it too much. My daily use maching must keep working without constant maintenance though, and that's why I switched back to intel after many years of using AMD. My windows home server system is based on a 10 year old celeron running at 1ghz, and it has run 24/7 for a year without a single system hang. I never had an AMD system that could do that.

As for components, I've also had great luck with western digital hard drives. Again from the maintenance point of view, the WDC caviar black hard drives have an extra 2 years warranty and seem to be more durable in my experience. They're fairly fast and you'll only spend an extra $20 or so for the drive vs. other ones with lower performance and lesser warranty. I haven't had a WD Caviar Black fail on me, ever. I've had a number of other drives go bad, but never had a WD drive fail. If you want to save some money, I got a WD caviar blue 1TB drive and it also seems to be very good. Decent speed, quiet, and cheaper than the caviar black drives. If you are going to use a 2.5" drive in your SFF build, the WDC scorpio black notebook drives are very nearly as fast as many desktop drives. They're quiet, don't use much power, have decent performance, and have a good warranty.

Back to the original post though, I'd go intel for a system I didn't want to fiddle with, based on 20 years of fiddling around with computers. I'm done playing with computers, now I just want to USE them. And I've had a lot better luck with overall system stability and durability with intel systems no matter what generation of intel or AMD cpu/mobo/chipset I've used. AMD systems are cheaper and can be very fast, but all of the ones I've purchased have required nearly constant fiddling to keep them running, even when I use the highest quality parts I can find.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
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Based on 32 years of fiddling with computers, and having built several AMD systems that were problem-free for years. I'm going to disagree and say that AMD systems are perfectly reliable when built using decent components and run at stock speed.

What gets people in trouble is overclocking, unlocking cores that failed at the factory, using junk PSUs, not cooling the system properly. And being a hater ;)
 

flensr

Member
May 28, 2009
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I remember my first memory upgrade, taking an 8086 system from 512k to 1mb of ram. That involved pulling around 20 little chips with special chip pulling tongs, and pressing in the replacements. I was only around 12 yrs old so as you can imagine, about half of the time spent in that upgrade was straightening bent pins. The next 3 months was largely spent finding ways to use the "unusable" area above 640k. I think I finally settled on using it as a ramdisk for loading microsoft flight simulator or spacewars. C-wars and P-wars were favorites in 1987-1989... That intel system survived a LOT of abuse from me as I figured out how to use it, although I still used my C-64 (and C-128) for gaming with colors, music, basic programming, and BBS usage. Must have been 1981 or thereabouts. I still remember the game that needed a hardware dongle that did nothing but short out two pins on the expansion card slot of the C-64/128. A bent paperclip did the trick nicely after we lost the dongle...

If you want real reliability though, find one of those old original cyrix DRX2 386 replacement cpus :) That was the first cpu I owned that came with a heatsink.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
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(shakes cane at the young whippersnapper above me)

My first PC was a TRS-80 Model 1. I bought a beat-up RO33 teletype to use as its printer, and soldered the interface myself. Good times. After that it was an Atari 800, C=64, and finally a 286 12 MHz way back in '88. I did the RAM chips and 287 math coprocessor upgrade for mine too.
 

shamans33

Junior Member
Apr 28, 2010
13
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@flensr

I've built over 40 systems (AMD and Intel) in the past 2 years alone. At present time, there's no difference in reliability. They're both reliable. You're quoting experience on really old hardware which is totally irrelevant to the OP (no longer for sale). Furthermore, your post is totally offtrack from the OP. Why turn the thread into a AMD vs Intel argument?
 

flensr

Member
May 28, 2009
84
1
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It isn't OP. Go back and read it. The original question WAS in fact AMD vs. Intel. I wouldn't have posted it if the OP had not specifically asked for opinion regarding that specific question.

Regarding your reliability comments, that is your experience. Mine is different and I get my current info on that particular debate from some poor guy who does tech support for a small gaming company. A significantly larger percentage of his hardware related tech support problems come from the AMD side of the house, even today.

So that's why I clearly labeled my first post "opinion", and frankly it's pretty rude to flame someone for posting a clearly marked opinion, while spouting your own opinion as if it were some natural law or otherwise established fact.

Finally, back on topic, I think that the OP needs to look at the new encoding/decoding capabilities of the new sandy bridge cpus. That sort of thing, the ability to do very fast transcoding without an add-on GPU, could be very important to an SFF build depending on what the box will be used for. If it won't be used for gaming, the unique capabilities of the new sandy bridge CPUs should be looked at closely before going the low cost route with AMD simply because depending on what parts are selected, power consumption, cost, and complexity may be reduced with the highly integrated intel solutions at this time.
 

flensr

Member
May 28, 2009
84
1
71
(shakes cane at the young whippersnapper above me)

My first PC was a TRS-80 Model 1. I bought a beat-up RO33 teletype to use as its printer, and soldered the interface myself. Good times. After that it was an Atari 800, C=64, and finally a 286 12 MHz way back in '88. I did the RAM chips and 287 math coprocessor upgrade for mine too.

Did your school let you borrow a dial-up terminal and modem over the weekends? My high school was a math/science magnet school in San Diego, and it had two highly capable (for the time) second-hand mini computers on loan from UCSD (think mainframe that only takes up *half* of a room) with dial-up terminal modems. We could borrow one of them newfangled terminals that had both a keyboard AND a 25 line tty screen, plug in one of those big modems where you set an AT&T standard handset into the little rubber cups, and connect at a whopping 300bps to do our FORTRAN homework (and try to hack the teacher's account). Astounding! I think I had 512k storage space on the massive 5mb hard drive for projects.

The PET computers with the little chicklet keyboards were the first ones I used in elementary school. The rich kids all had TRS-80s when I was in 5th and 6th grade, but I had to settle for a C-64 and used the teacher's VIC-20 during class.