Building our first home...looking for advice (Cliffs included for the lazy)

[leeland]

Hi all,

My wife and I are in the final stages of bidding between two contractors to build our new home.

Builder #1
They have been the builder who has designed the plans, is a large home building company in our home town and has a ton of resources due to their size. As a result they have a Project manager and building 'assistant' who will spoon feed you and walk you through the entire process...picking out all the carpeting, doors, fixtures...matching things, etc...

They dig on average 2 homes a week to give an idea of volume...also due to the size of their operation I feel they are a little more on the expensive side.

Builder #2
Is an established builder of over 10 years (13 to be exact I think), built over 220 custom homes and has built homes that are 100,000 to 1,000,000 dollars in price. He probably builds 25 - 40 homes a year...maybe less with the economy...

He is the whole show along with his wife so is overhead is low and the prices tend to be a lot less than builder #1. He manages the operation and subs out all the work.

His wife is his assistant and does help with some guiding but probably not as much as builder #1 and from what I am seeing he will hand us off to ear sub to meet with vs. having someone go with us to pick stuff out.


I think they both do a great job on the homes and they are both part of a home parade program where you get to view newly built homes for them to showcase. They have excellent quality for the final product.

SO...my questions are this...

When we got the plans developed by Builder #1, the bid out all the work and gave an itemized list of the costs and projected allowances. We reviewed them and I took that estimate and handed it to Builder #2 with all the costs whited out and he is in the process of bidding the same.

If you keep the same allowances for both they should cancel out and you would be left with an apples to apples comparison of would be cheaper (assuming the final product would be on the same level) Correct?

Also...anyone that has gone though this process please give me some past experiences, things that caught you off guard or that were the hardest part...

Did anyone have any horror stories of things during their build or unexpected expenses?

I am thinking it won't be that terrible to pick out fixtures, cabinets, flooring...etc as my wife and I are pretty level with each other when it comes to stuff like that...

Cliffs
1. Building new home
2. Have two builders bidding out project
3. Looking for past experiences from others
4. Any gotcha's that you didn't expect
5. Would you do it again

P.S.

We had this bid out by both builders a year ago when we started and Builder #2 was about 20-25,000 dollars cheaper...a year later it has gone down in price with the second bid from builder #1 due to the economy and new home sales / builds. I am anxious to see what the second bid comes back from builder #2 (should know at the end of the week)

I am leaning towards builder #2 as he is cheaper, does just as nice of a job and just today mentioned that we could possibly have our new home in the home parade which would allow even more upgrades at a discounted rate (BONUS!).

Wife wants builder #1 because she has a re pour with our 'consultant' and feels she will guide us through the whole process and hold our hands while we pick things out. I tend to agree on that part but not if it is 20,000 dollars more!

Thanks for reading.

Lee

 

[leeland]

NOBODY has built a home on ATOT Come on I would have at least expected some smart ass comments or an off the cuff reply...

Someone say something

 

[deadlyapp]

NOBODY has built a home on ATOT Come on I would have at least expected some smart ass comments or an off the cuff reply...

Someone say something

Its "rapport" not re-pour

 

[leeland]

Its "rapport" not re-pour

now we are getting somewhere....please don't judge me for my public school education...but thanks for the lesson

 

[dmcowen674]

Beware of the contract.

It was on the news that builders have put a clause in that they get residual sales on the house for hundreds of years. So if you sold your house 10 years from now you would have to pay the builder again.

That's bullshit and should be ruled illegal.

 

[deadlyapp]

now we are getting somewhere....please don't judge me for my public school education...but thanks for the lesson

It's ok, I had to double check my spelling anyways, but you wanted a response so I gave you one

 

[Sea Moose]

Dont always go with the cheaper option

Compare the exclusions and inclusions.

One builder is cheaper for a reason and so he needs to cut costs some where....


Edit:

Ask the builders the question. Ask expensive builder

"why are you worth 25 000 Moar?

 

[lykaon78]

Keep the wife happy. Its her home - you're just living there.

 

[Sea Moose]

Keep the cat happy. Its her home - you're just living there.

Fixed

 

[Vette73]

Go with builder 2 but put the "saved" money back in the house. Use foam panel for the side of the house for higher insulation and less noise, Cat6 run in all rooms (monoprice has roll of cat6 cheap) , run 12ga wires for 20amp power in rooms not 14ga, get better windows (fiberglass windows not vinyl), 5/8" roof with 30year shingle (not 7/16" and 25year shingle), etc...

I did all that in my addition I just did (passed final inspection last week) and the cost was not that much more. Labor to install a better fiberglass window is the same or less then installing a cheap vinyl window. So the extra cost is the goods, not labor.

Where are you at? Your profile does not have a location.

 

[leeland]

Go with builder 2 but put the "saved" money back in the house. Use foam panel for the side of the house for higher insulation and less noise, Cat6 run in all rooms (monoprice has roll of cat6 cheap) , run 12ga wires for 20amp power in rooms not 14ga, get better windows (fiberglass windows not vinyl), 5/8" roof with 30year shingle (not 7/16" and 25year shingle), etc...

I did all that in my addition I just did (passed final inspection last week) and the cost was not that much more. Labor to install a better fiberglass window is the same or less then installing a cheap vinyl window. So the extra cost is the goods, not labor.

Where are you at? Your profile does not have a location.

I am in the midwest (Wisconsin) so it gets plenty cold.

I just took a look at our most recent bid and we are quoted with what appears to not be that great of windows

"From the quote"
windows to be low-E insulated glass with screen manufactured by Andersen, single-hung, vinyl with wood jamb

30 year landmark shingles


I found a decent website for information regarding windows...
http://www.efficientwindows.org/city_all.cfm?new=N&prodtype=WN&id=46

From the little reading I have done I haven't seen something why fiberglass is better than vinyl windows...

Can you post your reasoning for conversations sake?


Thanks much,

Lee

 

[Vette73]

I am in the midwest (Wisconsin) so it gets plenty cold.

I just took a look at our most recent bid and we are quoted with what appears to not be that great of windows

"From the quote"
windows to be low-E insulated glass with screen manufactured by Andersen, single-hung, vinyl with wood jamb

30 year landmark shingles


I found a decent website for information regarding windows...
http://www.efficientwindows.org/city_all.cfm?new=N&prodtype=WN&id=46

From the little reading I have done I haven't seen something why fiberglass is better than vinyl windows...

Can you post your reasoning for conversations sake?


Thanks much,

Lee

Fiberglass does not shrink/expand like vinyl does. So less cheance of leaks and also much stronger. Think vinyl siding where you have to leave it a little loose so it can expand and contrast due to temp changes.

I bought mine from Pella direct. Cost about the same as a "good" vinyl from a big box store. I got all sliders for mine as my wife wanted the biggest window she could get and double hung does not go as large.

Marvin also makes fiberglass windows but the local place was way to high and did not care if I was the installer. Pella gave me the builders price so I ordered from them. Maybe different in your kneck of the woods so call around. But for where you live a good window will pay for itself when the temps drop.

"Though this can be debated the highest quality fiberglass windows generally outlast the vinyl windows. It is certainly true that fiberglass windows contract and expand less than vinyl windows because of temperature change. As a result they suffer less from weather changes. Vinyl windows are prone to warping, rotting, cracking, bowing and shrinking in areas with severe weathers. These problems are not faced if you use fiberglass windows as they are less brittle and less affected by temperature change."

 

[Gibson486]

My mom has built a home before.

That itemized list, how detailed is it? Does it simply say, "Insulate home: XXXXX" or is it specific down to the type?

As for not taking the cheapest option, yes, it obvious. However, this is private bid. They do not want a pissed off consumer. You need to ask a contractor why his price is higher.

Also, sub bidding the work is not always a good thing. When they bid out the work, do you pick who wins the bid? If not, does the lowest bidder always win? Keep in mind that in the contractor world, things just have to meet plans, they do not have to be followed line by line. If he tells the sub to build this, will the sub be able to take the liberty and do a cheaper design that does the same exact thing? The last thing you want is a sub having to do a redo on something. This means the sub is now eating into his profits. Once the profit dries up, things can go downhill fast if the contractor does bus his ass early in the game.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

re pour?
really? i guess i could let it slide since even firefox doesn't catch it.

 

[leeland]

My mom has built a home before.

That itemized list, how detailed is it? Does it simply say, "Insulate home: XXXXX" or is it specific down to the type?

As for not taking the cheapest option, yes, it obvious. However, this is private bid. They do not want a pissed off consumer. You need to ask a contractor why his price is higher.

Also, sub bidding the work is not always a good thing. When they bid out the work, do you pick who wins the bid? If not, does the lowest bidder always win? Keep in mind that in the contractor world, things just have to meet plans, they do not have to be followed line by line. If he tells the sub to build this, will the sub be able to take the liberty and do a cheaper design that does the same exact thing? The last thing you want is a sub having to do a redo on something. This means the sub is now eating into his profits. Once the profit dries up, things can go downhill fast if the contractor does bus his ass early in the game.

An example of the itemized list would be something like this

insulation:

basement walls to have 1" foam
walls are R-19 fiberglass batts with 4-mil poly over
ceiling to r-50 blown insulation with 4-mil poly room side
all required proper vents in attic
all joints in framing members of wall are caulked
box sills are spray foamed

Both companies have sub contractors for the work. Both companies have had the same core group of sub's for their big stuff (roofers, framers, flooring, electrical, plumbing) and then it expands to several groups that are big in the area for stuff like cabinets...and then whole sale peeps for stuff like lighting...they submit the bids out to all the sub's and see where they are with the price when they come back.

I don't think they would have two great sub's for a particular task and a third inferior one that is going to do a sub par job...they would have quality guys since it is their rep on the line if things go sideways.

I don't want to sound like a dope but the both builders have been in business for over 10 years, have built a large number of homes in a wide range of prices and have good or great reps.

I can't imagine that a building company could afford to own staff for each of those functions and to keep costs down from their end they would HAVE to sub-contract the work...so having a sub-contractor is just part of the business

As for lowest bid win's I wouldn't just go on price alone...not when this much money is involved. My honest opinion is that builder #1 might product a superior product and builder #2 can do just as well if not the same.

The price different to me comes down to overhead and profit margin.

#2 is a smaller operation, works on a smaller scale but does good work.
#1 is larger operation, does a lot more work and also has a good final product.

Fiberglass does not shrink/expand like vinyl does. So less cheance of leaks and also much stronger. Think vinyl siding where you have to leave it a little loose so it can expand and contrast due to temp changes.

I bought mine from Pella direct. Cost about the same as a "good" vinyl from a big box store. I got all sliders for mine as my wife wanted the biggest window she could get and double hung does not go as large.

Marvin also makes fiberglass windows but the local place was way to high and did not care if I was the installer. Pella gave me the builders price so I ordered from them. Maybe different in your kneck of the woods so call around. But for where you live a good window will pay for itself when the temps drop.

"Though this can be debated the highest quality fiberglass windows generally outlast the vinyl windows. It is certainly true that fiberglass windows contract and expand less than vinyl windows because of temperature change. As a result they suffer less from weather changes. Vinyl windows are prone to warping, rotting, cracking, bowing and shrinking in areas with severe weathers. These problems are not faced if you use fiberglass windows as they are less brittle and less affected by temperature change."

I have been reading up on the different window types and materials...

It sounds like some of the pro's for Fiberglass are:

1. stronger
2. maintenance free
3. can paint

Con's:
Cost
Not as good of an insulator vs Vinyl (I have seen mixed reviews about this)

 

[Vette73]

An example of the itemized list would be something like this

insulation:
 
basement walls to have 1" foam
walls are R-19 fiberglass batts with 4-mil poly over
ceiling to r-50 blown insulation with 4-mil poly room side
all required proper vents in attic
all joints in framing members of wall are caulked
box sills are spray foamed

Both companies have sub contractors for the work. Both companies have had the same core group of sub's for their big stuff (roofers, framers, flooring, electrical, plumbing) and then it expands to several groups that are big in the area for stuff like cabinets...and then whole sale peeps for stuff like lighting...they submit the bids out to all the sub's and see where they are with the price when they come back.

I don't think they would have two great sub's for a particular task and a third inferior one that is going to do a sub par job...they would have quality guys since it is their rep on the line if things go sideways.

I don't want to sound like a dope but the both builders have been in business for over 10 years, have built a large number of homes in a wide range of prices and have good or great reps.

I can't imagine that a building company could afford to own staff for each of those functions and to keep costs down from their end they would HAVE to sub-contract the work...so having a sub-contractor is just part of the business

As for lowest bid win's I wouldn't just go on price alone...not when this much money is involved. My honest opinion is that builder #1 might product a superior product and builder #2 can do just as well if not the same.

The price different to me comes down to overhead and profit margin.

#2 is a smaller operation, works on a smaller scale but does good work.
#1 is larger operation, does a lot more work and also has a good final product.




I have been reading up on the different window types and materials...

It sounds like some of the pro's for Fiberglass are:

1. stronger
2. maintenance free
3. can paint

Con's:
Cost
Not as good of an insulator vs Vinyl (I have seen mixed reviews about this)

I was able to get my Fiberglass for about 10% more then what a Vinyl woudl cost. So in the long run it is not that much. Also my only vinyl window in house is colder then the fiberglass one so the insulating part of it does not hold up in my limited comparision. But you can also get the Fiberglass foam filled. I skiped it and then used the Door/Window foam to fill my own up.

My biggest point is that just a little bit more, foam boards for siding/thicker wiring/etc..., does not add a hugh part to the bill, but has a very high return rate if you plan on living there a while. I even went with a 2X6 wall to get a R-25 on my wall (R6 from the foam and R19 from the fiberglass).
Also look into using PEX for your waterpipes. Installs quicker and cheaper. I converted my house and used PEX in my addition.

 

[leeland]

Our plumbing is quoted as PEX which is nice!

So if I am reading your post correct you have fiberglass windows (that originally were NOT insulated) and you did your own foam insulating using what?

If that is true...how were you able to gain access to the 'inside part of the fiberglass frame to accomplish this.

Please forgive my ignorant question if the windows now allow for this sort of access...

Can you also expand on the upgrade on the electrical? What benefits you gain? Or give a simple example of how you would utilize that in your new addition?

Thanks,
Lee

 

[Vette73]

Our plumbing is quoted as PEX which is nice!

So if I am reading your post correct you have fiberglass windows (that originally were NOT insulated) and you did your own foam insulating using what?

If that is true...how were you able to gain access to the 'inside part of the fiberglass frame to accomplish this.

Please forgive my ignorant question if the windows now allow for this sort of access...

Can you also expand on the upgrade on the electrical? What benefits you gain? Or give a simple example of how you would utilize that in your new addition?

Thanks,
Lee

Yea foam filled was a option for my windows. I passed as it does not help a lot. But when I got them I saw the little holes on the top and bottom and they covered them with glue. I picked the glue out and filled with the Window/Door foam yopu get at lowes/HD/etc... the kind that does not expand as much so it will not bow a window/door. Not sure how much the foam will help but I had a little time and wanted to try it.

For wiring if you run 12ga wire instead of the standard 14ga you can use 20amp outlets abd breakers. So for a 120volt setup that means you get up to 2400watts out of that line vs 1800 from a 14ga setup. So I can run more items without tripping the breaker and also means less voltage drop in the line from the thicker wire. My MiLs room is in the addition and she runs a space heater int he winter. So the extra power can run that and her TV at the same time. I ran 2 lines to ehr room so she can run heater, TV, and a Iron and not trip the breaker. Also ran 2 cable lines to her room. 2 outlets with 1 for Cable/Internet and 1 for Over the Air Digital TV. Did nto do the Cat6 like some other rooms as she never use it and I was getting low.

 

[leeland]

I was researching on your 2x6 wall comment and found an excellent article which goes into some science on if it is feasible in your given area by doing some simple math.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B217_Extra_Wall_Insulation.shtml

Our home plans were bid with 2x6 exterior walls and 2x4 interior walls

 

[Vette73]

I was researching on your 2x6 wall comment and found an excellent article which goes into some science on if it is feasible in your given area by doing some simple math.

http://www.askthebuilder.com/B217_Extra_Wall_Insulation.shtml

Our home plans were bid with 2x6 exterior walls and 2x4 interior walls

Yea thats what we did as well. 2X6 outside and 2X4 inside. 2X6 inside is only if you need to block one room from another for some reason like sound. But you can buy drywall (costly) to cut out sound. Lowes here carries it but it cost to much for what we were building.

Look into foam panel instead of OSB for the exterior wall. It does cost more but is easy to hang and adds another R6 per 1".

 

[Homerboy]

In WI you do NOT skimp on Windows (I'm in Milwaukee)
Pay the price and get GOOD windows.

Where are you building?

 

[leeland]

In WI you do NOT skimp on Windows (I'm in Milwaukee)
Pay the price and get GOOD windows.

Where are you building?

Fox Cities Area (West of Neenah)...

As for your windows comment I cannot agree more.

Our current has the worst windows...the home is 10 years old and we have to plastic them every winter because of the condensation and frost build up on the inside of the windows.

After reviewing this website that has a TON of info I want to get some more information on what is available to us...

http://www.efficientwindows.org/index.cfm

 

[Homerboy]

Fox Cities Area (West of Neenah)...

As for your windows comment I cannot agree more.

Our current has the worst windows...the home is 10 years old and we have to plastic them every winter because of the condensation and frost build up on the inside of the windows.

After reviewing this website that has a TON of info I want to get some more information on what is available to us...

http://www.efficientwindows.org/index.cfm

We did an addition on our house a few years back (bedroom and bathroom). We went, by our architect's and builder (single guy) recommendation with some high-end Pella windows. Wood interior, vinyl exterior. Low E yadda yadda yadda. We have 4 casement 2x2 windows and 2 double-hung (with transom). Can barely feel the WI cold through them and NO draft at all (rest of the house is 60 year old single hungs with some winter storms from 1960...Brrrrrrrrrrrr).