Building a new PC

[davenp]

Upgrade time for me. Current system is 2+ years old at this point, and while it still works ok, the fact that my new Geforce 8800GT DOESN'T FIT ON THE MOTHERBOARD is a good excuse. I'm looking for, essentially, a thumbs up before I pull the trigger and spend all this money; is all this going to work?

Primary use is gaming, movie watching (non-High Def), object of worship/general extension of lifeforce.

Also, I'm passing along my current machine to my brother; am I out of line asking for....$200? $100?

XP Pro on both.

Current
Case: Sonata II w/450Watt SmartPower 2.0
Motherboard: EPOX EP-9NPA+ULTRA (with new heat sink...the original fan was horribly noisy)
Processor: AMD Athlon 64 3700+ Processor (San Diego)
Memory: 2 GB of Corsair DDR400 XMS3200
Video: eVGA GeForce 6800 GS
Sound: Chaintech AV710

Plus it's got a network card (I couldn't get the motherboard's onboard capability to work, and since I had a spare card lying around, never felt the need to sort it out), a 250 gig HD, a DVD burner and an additional DVD drive. I'm leaving the drives in there for the sake of convenience, and because I'd like to finally leave ATA behind me. Oh, and a floppy drive. I don't need to bring that over to the new one, do I? We're done with floppys by now, right?

After doing some research and reading, here's what I've come up with for the new machine (prices from New Egg; in my cart ready to go):
Case: Sonata III w/500W PSU ($80 after mail-in rebate). Not an Antec fanboy or anything, it just seems like a good deal with the included PSU.
Motherboard: GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS4 ($180) This is where I'm unsure. Not really a hardcore overclocker, but maybe it's time to start...on the other hand, I only plan on using the one video card, so the second PCI-E x16 is a waste. Better to go with a cheaper varient, like the GA-P35-DS3L ($100)?
Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 ($190) with an Artic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro ($22). I'm open to suggestions on the fan.
Memory: 4 GB total of Corsair XMS2 DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) ($37 for each set of 2, after rebate)
Video: eVGA Geforce 8800 GT (already have it, thank you eVGA Step-Up program)
Sound: I have no idea; a Creative Sound Blaster SB0570 Audigy SE 7.1 ($30)? Not that I have a 7.1 system. As long as it has a dedicated headphone jack...

Rounded out with a Samsung SATA DVD burner ($30), and (maybe not right away) two Western Digital 750 gig SATA HDs ($160 each), with which I'd like to try setting up RAID for the first time. Plus the two SATA HDs I'm going to bring over from the old machine. All of this is expensive, but doable.

Thanks guys!

 

[Doclife]

I would change to the following if I were you:

MOTHERBOARD: Gigabyte GA-P35-DS3R Revision 2.0 $127

If you don't do SLI and plan to overclock, this is the board for you. This board is highly overclockable, have superb on-board sound, have bigger heatsink on the north bridge chipset than the DS3L and 8 USB ports on the I/O backplate. The fact that it has superb on board sound, means that you don't need to buy a sound card.

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E4500 (2.2Ghz with x11 multiplier) $125

If you plan to overclock then the E6750 is not a very wise choice in terms of headroom and cost.

CPU COOLER: None. If your goal is to overclock the CPU to 3GHz (where the sweet spot is in terms of performance/power consumption/heat) or not overclock at all then an aftermarket cooler is overkill. Current generation of Intel CPU is running relatively cool and the stock cooler is more than adequate. The Intel stock cooler is very quiet, even under load. I suggest you give the Intel stock cooler a try. You'd be surprised how good it is.

I have the big Ninja 6 pipes cooler, but decided to use the stock cooler because it is smaller and the fan is blowing down; thus cooling not only the CPU but also other hot components that are nearby such as the north brige chip/heatsink, MOSFET. Another reason is that both the stock cooler and the Ninja gave me the same overclock. My CPU will not run faster than 3GHz no matter which cooler I use or how much more voltage I applied.

 

[davenp]

Good points on the Motherboard and cooler. Let me ask you about the processor though - part of my research were the Ars Technica guides, and they have a line in there: "Currently, all the CPUs Intel offers below the E6550 (save for a few 1066 FSB holdovers) are based on the Allendale core, offer only half the cache of the Conroe (2MB unified L2 instead of 4MB), and run on an 800MHz FSB. " Does that make a difference in the real world?

 

[PolymerTim]

As usual, the answer is "it depends". I'm no expert, so maybe someone else can chime in with specifics, but in some cases the extra cache will matter and in others it won't.

Also, depending on how high you want to overclock, you should consider the multiplier on your cpu since it will determine how hard you have to push your fsb to reach your overclock.

From what I've read, it's true that you can reach a moderate overclock with the stock cooler, but you will get lower temps using just about any aftermarket cooler (Link) and the ACF7 Pro is considered a pretty good buy for the money. Of course, as a tower cooler, it won't help much with your NB and PWM temperatures (as Doclife pointed out), but at moderate overclocks, this shouldn't be a problem.

I would like to make sure you know that if you buy an E4xxx or E6xxx series chip, it will be obsoleted almost immediately (Link). If you're not in a hurry to buy, you might want to wait for these new Penryn chips to come out. For the same price as an E6750, you can get an E8400 (0.3 GHz faster, 50% more L2 cache, runs cooler on less power) before the end of the month.

I agree that the DS4 is overkill for your use. I second the DS3R, even if you don't need the raid, since it has better on-board sound. There are also many other P35 boards that would do well.

A note about the RAM, 4 sticks can sometimes reduce your max overclock a bit, but this shouldn't be a big problem unless you really want to push your overclock. The 2GB chips can also sometimes limit the max overclock a bit, but I would rather have the 4GB than a little higher speed.

Good luck with your build!

-Tim

 

[davenp]

Thanks Tim. Your advice to wait on the processor is well taken, and I can certainly wait a couple of weeks - I just have this unusable 8800GT burning the equivalent of a hole in my pocket.

As for the cooler...I can probably wait and see on that as well.

4gigs of RAM almost seems like an absurd amount to me, but after the rebate it's less than $20 a gig. So what the hell.

I may still order the Sonata III now though; $80 seems like a great deal, what with free shipping. My last case cost me a lot more, I seem to recall.

 

[Doclife]

Originally posted by: davenp
Thanks Tim. Your advice to wait on the processor is well taken, and I can certainly wait a couple of weeks - I just have this unusable 8800GT burning the equivalent of a hole in my pocket.

As for the cooler...I can probably wait and see on that as well.

4gigs of RAM almost seems like an absurd amount to me, but after the rebate it's less than $20 a gig. So what the hell.

I may still order the Sonata III now though; $80 seems like a great deal, what with free shipping. My last case cost me a lot more, I seem to recall.

I agreed that $80 for the Sonata III w/500W Earthwatt PSU AND free shipping is a steal. I suggest you get it now before the deal is dead. Computer case and quality PSU are a few things in the computer world that will not obsolete over night; thus, it is not a bad idea to buy them in advance when the price is right.

As for the amount of cache memory, 2MB versus 4MB, you can compensate for lower cache memory with higher operating frequency of the CPU. Thus, CPU with 2MB cache memory can provide the same performance as CPU with 4MB cache if you raise the operating frequency of the 2MB CPU by sufficient amount (for example 3Ghz 2MB CPU, compare to 2.4Ghz 4MB CPU). This is one of the fundamental reasons for overclocking : using lower cost part to achieve equivalent or better performance than higher cost part by increasing the applied voltage, frequency.

Coolers. Since the current generation of Intel CPU is running relatively cool, the temperature differences between a stock cooler and an aftermarket won't be that great (~10C at full loaded and even less when idle, IIRC). A few more degrees will not affect the life expectancy of the CPU, especially if you only plan to keep your computer for less than, say 10 years. $50-$60 for a gigantic cooler that I see selling is really overkill and not necessary IMHO, unless it is the complete silent PC that you are after. I suggest you use the money saved to buy better speakers, monitor, where they will have immediate impacts to your senses every day.

 

[chuckm]

This cooler is NOT top of the line, but comparable to the freezer pro, $7 after MIR;
http://www.newegg.com/product/...p?item=N82E16835103031

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: davenp
Thanks Tim. Your advice to wait on the processor is well taken, and I can certainly wait a couple of weeks - I just have this unusable 8800GT burning the equivalent of a hole in my pocket.

As for the cooler...I can probably wait and see on that as well.

4gigs of RAM almost seems like an absurd amount to me, but after the rebate it's less than $20 a gig. So what the hell.

I may still order the Sonata III now though; $80 seems like a great deal, what with free shipping. My last case cost me a lot more, I seem to recall.

This is a strange time to buy. The E4500 is an interesting processor because it offers Core 2 Duo technology with an 11x multiplier for less than $130. You're right to be concerned about the 2MB cache (the E6550 and up have 4MB), but when clock speed is most important I think the cheaper CPU will probably get you the best overclock. This is because the E6750 you had picked out only has a multiplier of 8x. So, that means you'll need to crank up your motherboard to FSB375 to reach 3GHz, whereas the E4500 will get there with only FSB273. Now, I admit I don't have a lot of first-hand experience with this, but the numbers quite obviously suggest that the E4500 will put less strain on the board for the same clock speed--which in turn means you *should* be able to get more speed out of it than the E6750. In my opinion, I'd rather have a faster clock than more L2 cache. And of course the price is less, too.

The Gigabyte P35 line is a great way to go, but I'd go for the base model GA-P35-DS3L ($106) unless you need features it's missing. However, I can't imagine what you'd need that it doesn't have, so that's what I'd suggest as a base. I don't think the audio chipset upgrade is justification for a $28 price premium for the next tier, especially when even a cheap-o dedicated audio card would blow either onboard option away.

As for the CPU cooler, I *highly* suggest you try the retail bundled cooler, first, and only get an aftermarket hsf if you're unsatisfied with it. I doubt you'll end up wanting it, which will save you money. Conversely, if you do end up upgrading to aftermarket, then you won't have lost a dime, and you'll know that your money was well-spent.

One last thing: keep in mind that to use more than 3GB RAM you'll need a 64-bit operating system.

Good luck!

 

[Andvari]

How do you determine the multiplyer of a processor?

 

[Doclife]

Originally posted by: Andvari
How do you determine the multiplyer of a processor?

By dividing the operating frequency of the CPU by the base FSB frequency (Front Side Bus). The full FSB frequency is the base FSB x 4

For example, E6750 operating frequency is 2.66Ghz and the base FSB frequency is 333MHz (Full FSB is 333Mhz x 4 = 1333Mhz); the multiplier must be 2660Mhz/333Mhz = 8

E4500 operating frequency is 2.2Ghz and the base FSB is 200Mhz (Full FSB is 200Mhz x 4 = 800Mhz); the multiplier must be 2200Mhz/200Mhz = 11

 

[Roguestar]

Originally posted by: Andvari
How do you determine the multiplyer of a processor?

What Doclife said, and it's already set in the BIOS when you drop the chip in. You can also ususally see the multiplier on tech specs on most websites.

 

[PolymerTim]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
This is because the E6750 you had picked out only has a multiplier of 8x. So, that means you'll need to crank up your motherboard to FSB375 to reach 3GHz, whereas the E4500 will get there with only FSB273.

I would agree in general (and I am not very experienced in this but have been reading a lot) but you have to consider if you are running up against the limit of the processor or the board. Most upper end boards like the DS3R can easily hit 400MHz from what I've read. In fact, I think the E6750 at 400MHz FSB and your DDR2-800 RAM at a 1:1 ratio is a very popular and just about effortless overclock to 3.2GHz. That's what I was plannign for my build before I decided to wait for the Penryns. I think the E4xxx series can also get to about 3.2GHz, but I think you are starting to push the proc to its limits at this point. I'm pretty sure if you look at max overclock, the E6750 will beat out any E4xxx chip on an upper end board, even with its smaller multiplier. The reason the E4xxx and E2xxx series chips are so popular is that they are much cheaper and for modest overclocks (like 3.2) can get to similar speeds.

I agree about the cooler. For a modest overclock, you will not be limited by your stock HSF. I am thinking about gettig a midrange cooler jsut because I like to see my temps in the 40s under load instead of the 60s, but I don't think it really matters in the end. I agree, for modest overclocking, you should start with the stock HSF and then decide if you want to spend money to lower your temps.

I agree that 4GB does seem like a ridiculous amount of RAM, but you're right that the price is so cheap right now you might as well. Like hurtstotalktoyou mentioned, you will only see about 3.2GB in a 32-bit system, but 3.2 is still better than 2 and it will be there if you upgrade to 64-bit. Whether or not you need 4GB over 2GB really depends on your use. If you play some of the latest and greatest 3D gaming titles or work with graphic rendering, video editing, or just about anything from Adobe, then it will probably be put to good use. If you upgrade to Vista, it will also be put to good use. There is a new feature in Vist called SuperFetch that actually learns your computer usage patterns and tries to predict what programs you will load before you load them and puts them in RAM for you. It even recognizes different days of the week and times of the day. So people freak out when they see that Vista is using 2GB of RAM by itself, but then they go to open up a program and it opens instantly with no HD activity - now that's sweet.

-Tim

 

[davenp]

<<One last thing: keep in mind that to use more than 3GB RAM you'll need a 64-bit operating system. >>

Riiight. I of course knew that. I, uh, just forgot.

Oh well. Two sticks of 512 for $16 after rebate!

Regarding the Motherboard....I've used Gigabyte's handy comparison tool and I think I'm going to go with the "R" varient, as I have it in my head that I want to set up a RAID array at some point.

As for the processor, the conversation has crept upwards until it is well over my head. hurtstotalktoyou and PolymerTim have both pointed out that it's a bad time to buy, with new intel processors literally just around the corner, so I'll hold off for a couple of weeks before going through with this (from that chart linked earlier, the E8400 looks like a likely bet). Sticking with the stock cooler also seems to be the consensus.

Incredibly useful advice, everyone!

 

[BlueAcolyte]

How about the DFI blood iron... I just looked at it and it looks pretty good... It's a bit cheaper than the DS3R as well, but has the same ICH9R chipset and onboard RAID.

 

[Doclife]

Originally posted by: davenp
<<One last thing: keep in mind that to use more than 3GB RAM you'll need a 64-bit operating system. >>

Riiight. I of course knew that. I, uh, just forgot.

Oh well. Two sticks of 512 for $16 after rebate!

Regarding the Motherboard....I've used Gigabyte's handy comparison tool and I think I'm going to go with the "R" varient, as I have it in my head that I want to set up a RAID array at some point.

As for the processor, the conversation has crept upwards until it is well over my head. hurtstotalktoyou and PolymerTim have both pointed out that it's a bad time to buy, with new intel processors literally just around the corner, so I'll hold off for a couple of weeks before going through with this (from that chart linked earlier, the E8400 looks like a likely bet). Sticking with the stock cooler also seems to be the consensus.

Incredibly useful advice, everyone!

You can buy 1GB stick of HP DDR2 667Mhz memory for $7.50 (after $20 rebate for each stick, Free shipping) here

http://www.costcentral.com/proddetail/HP/PX976AT/L49299

I bought 4 sticks and got my rebate from HP within 4 weeks. The memory chips used in these RAM modules are manufactured by Micron Technology, the parents company of the Crucial brand. I was able to overclock 4 sticks to 720Mhz with stock voltage without any problems. I haven't try to overclock it further.

BTW, I stopped by Fry's Electronics today and saw they have the Sonata III case w/500W Earthwatts PSU on sale for $65 (after $25 rebate). I think this is a very good deal.