Building a media center PC

[dclive]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

Originally posted by: sumrtym
CPU: P4 Celeron 2.4 Ghz

Well, there goes all your credibility - you suggested a Celeron. 😛

Go for the XP-M 2500, but don't buy an IGP nForce board - get a discrete TV-out capable card instead, like an R9200.

- M4H

Why do you need any of that to do what he's describing? That said, with Fry's having AMD CPUs + MB in the $75 range, it's silly to get less unless there's a very specific purpose.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: sumrtym

Originally posted by: fragstar
This is all crazy talk. Media center can't not be bought separately. You will need a preconfigured unit. I would suggest a small form factor pc, probably a shuttle. Check the microsoft website for a list of media center partners to find out who actually sells these products.

What the heck? Who would want to use Microsoft's Media Center anyway???? Go with Sage, or MyHTPC, or BeyondTV. I can't imagine why you'd want to spend more money to Microsoft than what it costs yourself, AND be limited in your hardware software (not to mention crippling usability / portability of records with DRM)!!!

You want crazy talk, I think you just spouted it....

MCE2004 (aka Media Center 2004) is *very* slick software, *very* easy to use, and very well organized. A lot of people are confused in setting up hardware and software; MCE2004 makes that a lot easier. Plus you can get full and loaded setups from Dell and the other usual suspects for $800-ish - pretty inexpensive for a fully configured computer.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: NiMhBatt
Thanks for all of your help. Your suggestions and even your debating because its helped a lot.

You are right. I don't want M$MCE. BLEH. The majority of the DVDs we play right now are on my laptop which is a PIII 750 with 512 MB of ram.. and my wife plays MP3s all the time on her Athlon XP 2500 system. Part of the reason I want a mediacenter PC is because I want to up the output and have a dedicated system. I want to keep the costs reasonable because I doubt there will be any game playing on it but I'm not ruling out spending a little extra to get good options or features.

On that note... I think this has pretty muched nixed the idea of the Real card I mentioned before but thats not a big deal. I don't seem to need it.

Can I get some input on Sound Cards and Speakers? I want Dolby Digital Surround capability so I was looking at the upper end Audigy 2 ZS' which I believe have that ability. Or should I look for a surround sound system to tie this into somehow?

Thanks,

Except for DVDs, do you have anything that will take advantage of 5.1? Most of the PCs these days ship with pretty decent audio-out; many of the nForce (and even lots of Dell/Compaq/etc. brands) ship with 5.1-out already in the box....

 

[RyanM]

Why the fsck would you want hardware MPEG2 encoding? The last time I checked, the great thing about a media center PC is you can slap in a Raptor, locate your files elsewhere on the network on a shiny huge-ass 250 GB drive, and encode everything directly for MPEG4. Burn them as data to DVD, and whammo, massive fscking amounts of movies on a single disc. All you need the hard drive in the HTPC to do is run the proggies, have some Vmem, and occasionally handle timeshifting.

The only time you'd EVER need to encode MPEG2 is if you're burning a DVD for a lame-ass technologically-impaired friend who's too low-tech to put together, or even utilize, an HTPC, at which point, you can do that in the background with TMPEGEnc and take the quality time to make fun of his ass.

Fsck MPEG2 hardware encoding. Get a good cheap TV Tuner that's open enough to support your BeyondTV's and MyHTPC's, a cheap videcard with decent video output (or higher end if you game), an Athlon XP-M with a nice copperheatsink and low-pro 80mm zalman fan, a Raptor for fast load times on every proggie you run, and an audio card with optical output to your reciever (AV-710, and you DO have a reciever, right?)

And don't tell me you need a gig for an HTPC. Unless you're doing gaming or encoding video 24/7, you'll rarely touch 512.

Let's total this up:

Antec Aria case ($118 shipped on newegg)
Athlon XP-M ($70 to $200 depending on speed)
MicroATX mobo (I recommend the MSI KM400A board, model number escapes me, $67 shipped on Mwave. SATA, 4 Mobo USB headers, GREAT layout for the Aria, and official support up to 3000+)
Hard drive for programs and windows (20 to 40 gigs, the faster the better - $40 to $120 depending)
RAM (A stick of PC3200 Geil will run you $95 shipped, and it'll do 2-3-2-6 at PC2700 speeds)
Audio (AV-710, $23 shipped)
Video (Radeon 9600, decent gaming, great output, $110)
TV Tuner (take your pick of the $50 to $70 pricerange)
Optical Drive (NEC 2510A - $90 shipped)
Heatsink (SLK-800A, $20, Zalman 80x15mm fan, $10)
BYOA network access

Grand total using the minimum specs - $693. And that's assuming you buy it all new, and bring no components of your own to the table. It'll be cool, silent, and damn fast for just about anything.

Seriously though - Don't host the files on the HTPC. Your primary PC is much better suited for serving up and storing large volumes of files effectively, and a 100 Mbps wired network (or 11g) is more than suitable for streaming 10 Megabit per second DVD-quality video, let alone 4 Mbps Xvid stuffs.

 

[EvanAdams]

I think the whole media center thing came from the threads topic 😉

 

[wyvrn]

Somebody needs a timeout 😛

1) Why use two computers to do what one can? Personally I want my HTPC to be standalone and not need to be networked.

2) $693 is nearly twice what I will spend on a reliable, stand-along HTPC that can do everything.

edit: I should say everything except gaming, which some people consider part of an HTPC but I don't. I am concentrating on the Home Theatre part, and using my Xbox for games. 🙂

 

[RyanM]

What're the specs on this stand-alone, do everything system, and what'd you pay for the parts?

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: MachFive
Why the fsck would you want hardware MPEG2 encoding?

To offload the stress and issues of encoding from the computer's CPU in order to deliver a more reliable recording environment. With MPEG2 encoding, it just works - no issues, no problems.

The last time I checked, the great thing about a media center PC is you can slap in a Raptor

Any old drive is fine. No sense spending more $$ and getting a faster drive that just heats up the case faster and has no other tangible benefit.

locate your files elsewhere on the network on a shiny huge-ass 250 GB drive, and encode everything directly for MPEG4.

...which takes a fast CPU, and the results can be anywhere from pretty good to pretty bad, depending on your settings, resolutions, etc. With the MPEG2 card, you don't need to worry about any of that - a Pentium 3 / 800 can handle everything and have CPU cycles left over - that's a big advantage, as many people have older CPUs lying around.

Burn them as data to DVD, and whammo, massive fscking amounts of movies on a single disc. All you need the hard drive in the HTPC to do is run the proggies, have some Vmem, and occasionally handle timeshifting.

That'll work, sure. That's one way to do it. 🙂

The only time you'd EVER need to encode MPEG2 is if you're burning a DVD for a lame-ass technologically-impaired friend who's too low-tech to put together, or even utilize, an HTPC, at which point, you can do that in the background with TMPEGEnc and take the quality time to make fun of his ass.

I have better things to do with my friends - like treat them like real people. The MPEG2 card makes it all transparent - a lot of people have better things to do than play with encoders and TMPEGEnc type programs.

Fsck MPEG2 hardware encoding. Get a good cheap TV Tuner that's open enough to support your BeyondTV's and MyHTPC's, a cheap videcard with decent video output (or higher end if you game), an Athlon XP-M with a nice copperheatsink and low-pro 80mm zalman fan, a Raptor for fast load times on every proggie you run, and an audio card with optical output to your reciever (AV-710, and you DO have a reciever, right?)

A basic TV tuner is $30-40 these days. NewEgg has MPEG2 tuners for $80-ish. For the extra $40, I think it's well worth it.

And don't tell me you need a gig for an HTPC. Unless you're doing gaming or encoding video 24/7, you'll rarely touch 512.

Agreed. My Media Center 2004 box has 256M.

Let's total this up:
Antec Aria case ($118 shipped on newegg)
Athlon XP-M ($70 to $200 depending on speed)
MicroATX mobo (I recommend the MSI KM400A board, model number escapes me, $67 shipped on Mwave. SATA, 4 Mobo USB headers, GREAT layout for the Aria, and official support up to 3000+)
Hard drive for programs and windows (20 to 40 gigs, the faster the better - $40 to $120 depending)
RAM (A stick of PC3200 Geil will run you $95 shipped, and it'll do 2-3-2-6 at PC2700 speeds)
Audio (AV-710, $23 shipped)
Video (Radeon 9600, decent gaming, great output, $110)
TV Tuner (take your pick of the $50 to $70 pricerange)
Optical Drive (NEC 2510A - $90 shipped)
Heatsink (SLK-800A, $20, Zalman 80x15mm fan, $10)
BYOA network access
Grand total using the minimum specs - $693. And that's assuming you buy it all new, and bring no components of your own to the table. It'll be cool, silent, and damn fast for just about anything.

Don't forget the operating system - call it another $200 for XP Pro - that's $900 or so.

Or just get Compaq/HP's Media Center 6x0 series they're discontinuing - Best Buy has it for $600 or so, and it's *great*, has a *great* OS, MPEG2 encoder card, DVD+-4x, and other great goodies.

Seriously though - Don't host the files on the HTPC. Your primary PC is much better suited for serving up and storing large volumes of files effectively, and a 100 Mbps wired network (or 11g) is more than suitable for streaming 10 Megabit per second DVD-quality video, let alone 4 Mbps Xvid stuffs.

I don't see why it's an issue where it's hosted, since anything nowadays can easily stream the minimal MPEG2 thruput required.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: MachFive
What're the specs on this stand-alone, do everything system, and what'd you pay for the parts?

--- Agreed - it's easy to add a MPEG2 card to your existing PC, and you wouldn't even notice it while it's recording. That's another good idea.

(I'm very happy with the MPEG2 Asus card I found for $18 over at NewEgg. 🙂 )

 

[wyvrn]

Originally posted by: MachFive
What're the specs on this stand-alone, do everything system, and what'd you pay for the parts?

Scroll up a few posts and you shall see 🙂 The cost could go up if I want more hdd space, but probably only $40 more for an extra 40-60 gigs. That should really be enough for most people's needs.

 

[RyanM]

Originally posted by: wyvrn

Originally posted by: MachFive
What're the specs on this stand-alone, do everything system, and what'd you pay for the parts?

Scroll up a few posts and you shall see 🙂 The cost could go up if I want more hdd space, but probably only $40 more for an extra 40-60 gigs. That should really be enough for most people's needs.

Ah, but you simply can't compare that system to the one I spec'd out. For one, you bought a large number of the parts used, and many of the components are not even current tech.

So it's no shock it cost half as much. It'll also probably half as fast as the system I spec'd. 😉

And who said there's no point for a Raptor in an HTPC? I disagree. If you're going the network storage route, like I plan on doing, a large hard drive is unneccesary, and a Raptor will give you the fastest application launch times and speeds of any non-SCSI drive out there. Extra heat. Pah! A well-designed ventilation setup on an HTPC can conquer the extra heat they put out with no problem. And hell, they're not Seagates. 😉

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: MachFive
And who said there's no point for a Raptor in an HTPC? I disagree. If you're going the network storage route, like I plan on doing, a large hard drive is unneccesary, and a Raptor will give you the fastest application launch times and speeds of any non-SCSI drive out there.

So you'll save that extra six tenth of a second (no, I'm not kidding - check out http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.html?i=2101&p=10) while launching Media Center (bear in mind that's all you'll be doing the vast majority of the time on a Media Center PC - you'll suspend it instead of shutting down, so boot time isn't an issue anymore either), and absolutely nothing you do on the machine will have any kind of disk-based constraints at all. That's wasted money. It's kind of like putting an ATI x800 on a Media Center PC - you could, but since it's just going to show television images, why not save $400 and put a $30 Radeon 9200 in there instead? It will work exactly the same...

Extra heat. Pah! A well-designed ventilation setup on an HTPC can conquer the extra heat they put out with no problem. And hell, they're not Seagates. 😉

Yes, but you're paying extra for something that's absolutely unnecessary. Don't you think it would be wiser to put that money into your workstation, which, assumedly, you heavily use every day?

 

[RyanM]

I already have a Raptor in my workstation. 😉

Point ceded. It's overkill for most uses. Still, a man can dream, can't he? heh

 

[wyvrn]

Ah, but you simply can't compare that system to the one I spec'd out. For one, you bought a large number of the parts used, and many of the components are not even current tech.

So it's no shock it cost half as much. It'll also probably half as fast as the system I spec'd.

Au contraire! That's the point EXACTLY. Why build a machine that's twice as fast if you don't need it. You're wasting money. What benefit is the power going to give if my machine will do exactly what most people want their HTPC's to do? That's like buying a V8 truck to haul home the groceries. You may look cool, but in the end who is the dumbass for overspending trying to impress people they don't even know? I certainly don't care what people on a message board think 😉

I laugh at people spending $1000 on an HTPC when they will not even come close to getting their money's worth out of the system. I plan on applying the money saved on my project to furnish my media room with audio and video equipment, for my personal enjoyment. So have fun with your Ki1leR Syst3M dooood!

Yes, but you're paying extra for something that's absolutely unnecessary. Don't you think it would be wiser to put that money into your workstation, which, assumedly, you heavily use every day?

You are looking for wisdom where it does not exist. He wants the WOW factor 😀

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: wyvrn

Ah, but you simply can't compare that system to the one I spec'd out. For one, you bought a large number of the parts used, and many of the components are not even current tech.

So it's no shock it cost half as much. It'll also probably half as fast as the system I spec'd.

Au contraire! That's the point EXACTLY. Why build a machine that's twice as fast if you don't need it. You're wasting money. What benefit is the power going to give if my machine will do exactly what most people want their HTPC's to do? That's like buying a V8 truck to haul home the groceries. You may look cool, but in the end who is the dumbass for overspending trying to impress people they don't even know? I certainly don't care what people on a message board think 😉

I laugh at people spending $1000 on an HTPC when they will not even come close to getting their money's worth out of the system. I plan on applying the money saved on my project to furnish my media room with audio and video equipment, for my personal enjoyment. So have fun with your Ki1leR Syst3M dooood!

Exactly! So many people don't understand this. The best Media Center PC is typically the old 3 year old junker with a video card with S-Video out, an MPEG2 encoder card, and MCE2004 or similar software on it - most people can put this together for $30 for a video card, $80 for an MPEG2 card, $30 for a remote, and $60 or so for software - plus any old PC they've got lying around. Why spend money for something that is going to be hidden away anyway?

 

[RyanM]

I was simply giving an example using off-the shelf, retail, new parts. If I had configured a more budget-oriented system, meeting that price point would be no problem - But that wasn't what I was doing.

Apples to oranges, gentlemen.

Besides, this is something that's going to come down to personal preference. I don't like MPEG2 as a storage format, I much prefer MPEG4 - So any HTPC I build or spec out is going to be designed around streaming MPEG4, encoding MPEG4, with the ability to convert to MPEG2 as an afterthought.

We're working towards two different goals, which makes the argument a bit moot.

 

[Buickbeast]

Originally posted by: dclive

Originally posted by: wyvrn

Ah, but you simply can't compare that system to the one I spec'd out. For one, you bought a large number of the parts used, and many of the components are not even current tech.

So it's no shock it cost half as much. It'll also probably half as fast as the system I spec'd.

Au contraire! That's the point EXACTLY. Why build a machine that's twice as fast if you don't need it. You're wasting money. What benefit is the power going to give if my machine will do exactly what most people want their HTPC's to do? That's like buying a V8 truck to haul home the groceries. You may look cool, but in the end who is the dumbass for overspending trying to impress people they don't even know? I certainly don't care what people on a message board think 😉

I laugh at people spending $1000 on an HTPC when they will not even come close to getting their money's worth out of the system. I plan on applying the money saved on my project to furnish my media room with audio and video equipment, for my personal enjoyment. So have fun with your Ki1leR Syst3M dooood!

Exactly! So many people don't understand this. The best Media Center PC is typically the old 3 year old junker with a video card with S-Video out, an MPEG2 encoder card, and MCE2004 or similar software on it - most people can put this together for $30 for a video card, $80 for an MPEG2 card, $30 for a remote, and $60 or so for software - plus any old PC they've got lying around. Why spend money for something that is going to be hidden away anyway?

I guess neither of you have a htpc feeding a decent HDTV display. Even the most expensive HTPC systems cannot play 720p-1080p with FFDshow maxed out. You need to build a HTPC around your system not the other way around. If your using grandma's $400 tube, yeah 3 year old technology is fine but if you are running a $2000 and up HD display, why not spend an equal amount on the HTPC.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: Buickbeast

Originally posted by: dclive

Exactly! So many people don't understand this. The best Media Center PC is typically the old 3 year old junker with a video card with S-Video out, an MPEG2 encoder card, and MCE2004 or similar software on it - most people can put this together for $30 for a video card, $80 for an MPEG2 card, $30 for a remote, and $60 or so for software - plus any old PC they've got lying around. Why spend money for something that is going to be hidden away anyway?

I guess neither of you have a htpc feeding a decent HDTV display. Even the most expensive HTPC systems cannot play 720p-1080p with FFDshow maxed out. You need to build a HTPC around your system not the other way around. If your using grandma's $400 tube, yeah 3 year old technology is fine but if you are running a $2000 and up HD display, why not spend an equal amount on the HTPC.

Because there are next-to no tuners for the PC that can tune HDTV, and since it wasn't mentioned in the thread it's a nonissue?

Seriously, there's ATI's HDTV Wonder, and there are perhaps 2-3 others, most fairly expensive, and most of the software (TV recording software) that's out there on the market won't take advantage of the HD-part of it, so what's the point for most people?

And since broadcasts aren't in 1080p anyway, what's the point? Just what is it you're capturing anyway?

 

[Buickbeast]

Originally posted by: dclive

Originally posted by: Buickbeast

Originally posted by: dclive

Exactly! So many people don't understand this. The best Media Center PC is typically the old 3 year old junker with a video card with S-Video out, an MPEG2 encoder card, and MCE2004 or similar software on it - most people can put this together for $30 for a video card, $80 for an MPEG2 card, $30 for a remote, and $60 or so for software - plus any old PC they've got lying around. Why spend money for something that is going to be hidden away anyway?

I guess neither of you have a htpc feeding a decent HDTV display. Even the most expensive HTPC systems cannot play 720p-1080p with FFDshow maxed out. You need to build a HTPC around your system not the other way around. If your using grandma's $400 tube, yeah 3 year old technology is fine but if you are running a $2000 and up HD display, why not spend an equal amount on the HTPC.

Because there are next-to no tuners for the PC that can tune HDTV, and since it wasn't mentioned in the thread it's a nonissue?

Seriously, there's ATI's HDTV Wonder, and there are perhaps 2-3 others, most fairly expensive, and most of the software (TV recording software) that's out there on the market won't take advantage of the HD-part of it, so what's the point for most people?

And since broadcasts aren't in 1080p anyway, what's the point? Just what is it you're capturing anyway?

Sorry, I need to clarify. I'm mainly talking about displaying not recording. Scaling your DVD's to fit your HDTV is "IMHO" the biggest thing about a HTPC.
HTPCnews has a great article with before and after pics of scaling.

 

[dclive]

Originally posted by: Buickbeast
Sorry, I need to clarify. I'm mainly talking about displaying not recording. Scaling your DVD's to fit your HDTV is "IMHO" the biggest thing about a HTPC.
HTPCnews has a great article with before and after pics of scaling.

Given that the picture data you're scaling is 480p, what's the point of scaling it higher? You'll end up losing clarify, no matter how many sharpening effects you put it through. I saw the web page, and I'd like to know how they're creating data that isn't there. If the raw data is 480p, what are they doing to put even more data onto an HDTV image?

 

[Buickbeast]

Originally posted by: dclive

Originally posted by: Buickbeast
Sorry, I need to clarify. I'm mainly talking about displaying not recording. Scaling your DVD's to fit your HDTV is "IMHO" the biggest thing about a HTPC.
HTPCnews has a great article with before and after pics of scaling.

Given that the picture data you're scaling is 480p, what's the point of scaling it higher? You'll end up losing clarify, no matter how many sharpening effects you put it through. I saw the web page, and I'd like to know how they're creating data that isn't there. If the raw data is 480p, what are they doing to put even more data onto an HDTV image?

Your creating and sharping the data that is already there. I have a HTPC scaling my dvd's to 720p and even my less "tech savy" friends can tell the inprovement in the PQ.

 

[RyanM]

Originally posted by: dclive

Originally posted by: Buickbeast
Sorry, I need to clarify. I'm mainly talking about displaying not recording. Scaling your DVD's to fit your HDTV is "IMHO" the biggest thing about a HTPC.
HTPCnews has a great article with before and after pics of scaling.

Given that the picture data you're scaling is 480p, what's the point of scaling it higher? You'll end up losing clarify, no matter how many sharpening effects you put it through. I saw the web page, and I'd like to know how they're creating data that isn't there. If the raw data is 480p, what are they doing to put even more data onto an HDTV image?

Keep in mind that just by playing the 480p image on your TV, it's being "scaled" to fit the screen - Except that's just done by default by the TV. By pre-scaling the image, running corrections on it, and sending that signal to the TV, the TV does less scaling to get it to full size, and has a better image to put up to begin with.

 

[wyvrn]

From what I have heard, all of the HDTV tv cards available right now suck and they are too expensive for what you get.

Yes scaling is nice, but watching dvd quality ain't all that bad. I watch dvds on my 65" Pioneer and it doesn't look bad. I am not going to double my costs just for scaling, which imo, isn't enough of an improvement to justify the cost. I will wait until 1) more hdtv content is available and 2) there is better hardware options available.