Building a large file server, need some suggestions/help

[kami]

Long story short, my company needs to build a large file server. It's primary use will be for just storing files and transferring files to a few other computers on the network. It will be storing DV video files and we will need approximately 1 terrabyte of storage (1000 gigs). Right now it looks like 8 120gig drives is the best solution since cost is a big concern.

I have never used more than 4 IDE devices in one system, so I am thinking it's just best to buy a couple PCI IDE controllers (2 channels each), so we can have the 8 drives inside the computer. Is RAID that important (i have next to no experience with RAID setups) and what advantages would it give me in this situation? The files would never be edited/worked on off the server itself, it's primarily for storage and so it's easy to transfer really big files from computer to computer.

I'm thinking an AthlonXP 1800+ (w/ nforce2 mobo) with 512MB ram will be enough. Right?

Then of course a nice full tower case, but how much wattage will I need from the power supply to power all this. This machine has to be rock stable (it'll probably just be running Win2k by the way). Will I need more than one power supply? Also if I do, how the heck do you setup more than one PSU on a single PC? Ideally I would hope that a high quality 400-500 watt PSU would be enough but I could be wrong.

TIA :beer:

 

[DannyBoy]

RAID is something you should use on that server. It will make things much faster.

Only problem is if you want to back things up (Which if its a fileserver i say is a MUST), it will mean you will have to double the amount of hard drives you have.

You could just have a bunch of IDE Controller cards, but it will be much slower than a RAID array.

What speed is the network at work? 100mbit? If you can, get yourself a 1000 mbit connection. If your going to be transferring large files in the gb's ^^upwards^^ then your going to need all the network speed you can get.

Im not personally sure how to hook up more than one powersupply at a time, but i believe its done through extra cables and connectors.

You will probably need more than one PSU for that thing if you have 16 drives, im not sure for 8, but either a very powerful decent psu for 8 or even 2.

Dan

 

[kami]

Thanks. So would RAID give me a noticable speed increase if I ran it in that mode which just makes a backup on an identical drive?

I'll have to look into the 1000Mbit network stuff too, it would help a lot. Moving around 20-50 gig files will not be uncommon. I assume it's backwards compatible with 100mbit, but can you still use Cat5 cable?

 

[DaveSimmons]

You might be better off with 5 x 200 GB or even 4 x 250 GB (Maxtor, $288 each at newegg) to reduce heat problems and lower the power requirements. With 4 storage drives and an OS drive you could just use an Antec SLK3700 case and the 380 watt supply that comes with it. 1 Promise 133 TX2 card could run the 4 maxtors. The maxtor 250 GBs are 5400 RPM which lowers the heat generated and power use even more over 7200 RPM 120-200 GB drives.

Of course as MrFiTTy points out this gives you 0 backups for drive failure. The easiest backup for drive failure (but not user error, deleting files etc.) would be either RAID 1 or 5, but this does mean you need up to 2x the number of drives (read the Anandtech RAID FAQ).

For a real backup solution (against drive failure, user error, malicious users, fire, theft, lightning) you need a tape drive, stacks and stacks of tapes, and a good tape rotation / offsite backup system. Given that you could probably skip the RAID and maybe just add one extra drive as a hot spare.

 

[bozo1]

You don't need 2x the drives for Raid-5.

 

[DannyBoy]

As dave pointed out you could also go for larger drives, but the drop to 5400rpm will also be noticeable in performance.

As for tape backups, they will be a big no no.

I dont even know if its possible to get a Tape that will store 50gb's :Q and if there was one i would not want to even think of what the price mark would be.

For the price of Tape Drives, you would be cheaper off by getting yourself extra HDD's.

Also RAID 5 is designed with smaller files in mind, not large 20-50gb files. So that would not be a suggestable option in my views.

Search around for some good HDD prices and find out how much it would be for 2terabytes of data in the quickest and largest drives possible, and consider RAID 0+1 for backup's.

Dan

 

[DannyBoy]

Originally posted by: bozo1
You don't need 2x the drives for Raid-5.

He said upto 2x drives

And no you dont, which is why RAID 5 is a popular cheap option when it comes to backups in business companys / Fileservers etc.

With RAID 5 however you will also lose speed, and i would imagine you want this server to be as nippy as possible

Dan

 

[kami]

Forgot to mention im in canada, prices seem to work a little differently. I can get 120gig Maxtor's for $197 Canadian apiece, but 200gig Maxtor's run $405. Kind of wacked...the whole price per gig just skyrockets after 120gig it seems. It's $400 cheaper to go the 120gig route, though I only get 960gig instead of 1000gig (not a huge deal).

I may have to go the RAID or tape route it seems as this data is pretty damn important (uh, a whole feature film's raw footage lol).

So if I have to run a whopping 16 drives, then 2 power supplies is a must obviously. I guess all I need to know is how to have the computer's power button trigger both PSU's?

I also looked into the Gigabit NICs and I can find some Intel Pro1000's for only $59 Canadian each, but can't seem to find any Gigabit switches. These readily available yet?

 

[DannyBoy]

1000mbit switches are readily available.

I know netgear do a couple.

Infact a friend of mine has one.

Goto their site, http://www.netgear.com/

Lol just been there and they have a picture of a 1000mbit managed switch on the front page, heh

Dan

 

[DannyBoy]

Here is a link to a desktop gigabit switch from netgear. Same one my friend has.

They are pretty pricey but future proof at 10x the 100 barrier speed

 

[kami]

ANother dumb question...

I am looking at RAID cards. So say there is a 2 channel RAID card, that means I can just hookup 2 hard drives to it, and make them into a single RAID 1 array, correct? ANd a 4 channel card would let me run 2 seperate RAID 1 setups on it right?

 

[DannyBoy]

That is correct. Remember though you only get 120gb's with 2 drives as they are being mirrored.

Dan

 

[kami]

And is there a limit to how many RAID cards i can gave in a system?

 

[DaveSimmons]

For the price of Tape Drives, you would be cheaper off by getting yourself extra HDD's.

Yes, you'd need DLT drives and a changer to fully back up 1 TB overnight, but relying only on RAID is a really bad idea if there is any chance of:
* break in & theft (happened at my previous employer)
* fire, flood, burst pipe, lightning, catastrophic power supply failure -- these could take out the server and all its attached drives
* disgruntled employee sabotage
* careless employee damage (e.g. shift-delete the wrong folder and not caught before data overwritten)

You might be better off using a drive cart holder and a set of carts rather than RAID if HDs are your only backup. The drives could at least be kept removed from the server most of the time, even though you give up real-time synching of files. Of course RAID + carts would be even better / safer but then you're up to needing 1.25 + 1 TB = 2.5 worth of drives for RAID 5 + carts.

RAID cost: (newegg)
Using 5x 250 GB for RAID5 = 5 x $288 + $250-350 RAID card (cheap ones don't support RAID 5) = $1690 - 1790, + $288 for 1 spare drive
Switching to 200 GB drives, RAID = 6 x $219 + $250-350 = $1564 - 1664 + $219 for spare drive
(isong 120 or 160 means 9 drives or 7 drives, which probably means the more expensive case and power supply, which could eat up most of any cost savings on the drives)

Carts cost (offsite backup)
1 TB of drives + $20-30 per drive cart. Barring hot deals, 200 GB drives are probably most cost-effective.

the drop to 5400rpm will also be noticeable in performance

true, but the 20+ MB/sec sustained transfer rate of the Maxtors is probably enough to take all that the 100 or even 1000 mbit netcard can deliver to/from the server and its RAID card.

 

[AtomicDude512]

You guys dont get it. Get SCSI, if your company needs 1 Terabyte of space they must have money. Plus SCSI wont be as CPU intensive as RAID or BSOD. And you can string TONS of SCSI before it maxes out, all you need is a big case.

 

[kami]

I know RAID 1 won't be a total fool-proof backup method but it will be hooked up to a UPS and good surge protector for one thing. Server should be well protected from theft. We'll probably chain the thing down to be honest. Only 3 people will have full privelages, so chance of a mess up is relatively low. And data that doesn't need to be touched will probably be read-only. Drive carts may be a good idea though, but the only problem is a lot of it is going to be accessed constantly.
We are on a budget though, gonna be tough.

 

[kami]

You guys dont get it. Get SCSI, if your company needs 1 Terabyte of space they must have money.

Trust me, we don't have money. Three words: Independent film makers

 

[DannyBoy]

Originally posted by: kami
And is there a limit to how many RAID cards i can gave in a system?

As many as there are PCI slots to put them in

is probably enough to take all that the 100 or even 1000 mbit netcard can deliver to/from the server and its RAID card.

Very good point there Dave, silly me to not think of that

 

[DannyBoy]

Originally posted by: kami

You guys dont get it. Get SCSI, if your company needs 1 Terabyte of space they must have money.

Trust me, we don't have money. Three words: Independent film makers

Which is why i immediately suggested a Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks

 

[bozo1]

You also need to come up with a backup plan as well. I can't count the number of times I've seen Raid 1 and Raid 5 arrays destroyed due to a controller problem. Raid will usually save you from a drive failure but not a controller, other hardware problem, or an OS issue.

 

[DaveSimmons]

This might be more cost-effective than RAID 1, and could run in a standard case with 380-400 watt supply:
* 3Ware Escalade 7500-8 RAID controller (supports RAID 5, up to 8 drives) $413 at Newegg (www.3ware.com/products/parallel_ata.asp)
* RAID 5 you lose 1 drive's capacity so either 8 x 120 GB (= 840 GB storage) or 7 x 160 GB (= 960 GB storage) or 6 x 200 GB (= 1 TB).
(and you really should have 1 extra same-size drive ready as a hot spare)

The cost of using only 1 extra drive (2 if a spare) and a standard full tower could pay for using the more expensive RAID controller.

 

[kami]

Originally posted by: bozo1
You also need to come up with a backup plan as well. I can't count the number of times I've seen Raid 1 and Raid 5 arrays destroyed due to a controller problem. Raid will usually save you from a drive failure but not a controller, other hardware problem, or an OS issue.

Well what do you suggest?

BTW, finalized/completed stuff will most likely be burned onto DVD-Rs.