Building 1st PC! Would like higher end for Photoshop, non gaming machine...

[DualMonitors]

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I'm in the US and am embarking on building my first self built PC! My current PC is a 2-yr old Dell Dimension 8200, 2.26GHz, 1.5GB rambus (just stupidly increased it from 512MB to 1.5GB in April 2004, ugh, very costly upgrade from Kingston directly), original Dell/Nvidia Ti 4200 video card (currently trying out a Matrox P650 dual dvi output card, but Matrox drivers have tons of conflicts with Outlook/Office 2003, Windows Media Player 10, etc), and the real Achilles Heel: a 250-watt power supply from Dell which will cost $149 to replace from PC Power and Cooling (California) due to Dell's proprietary holes, switch locations etc.

My goal is to use my two LCD panels both via dvi outputs (21.3" Samsung 213T just bought 9/04; and a 19" NEC 1920NX bought around 2 yrs ago). Their resolutions are 1600 X 1200 and 1280 X 1024, respectively. My uses are: Photoshop (version CS), Excel, Word, websurfing... No gaming for me, at least not yet. Dual dvi, as i mentioned, is important. I was informed that Nvidia's Nview software is a great deal better than ATI's equivalent software for dual monitor use from a number of people.

I'd appreciate advice from those of your with far greater experience for me to assemble my first self put-together PC. I was looking at the choices of an ASUS "P5AD2 Premium" 925X Chipset Motherboard For Intel LGA 775 motherboard with a P4 cpu, but was worried that for a newbie like me, an Asus motherboard plus a P4 separately might be more trouble/conflict prone than an Intel motherboard plus a P4 TOGETHER in one bundle (i.e. Intel D925XCVLK Socket 775 ATX Motherboard and Intel Pentium 4 550 3.4GHz). I've been reading about putting compounds on the cpu and stuff and got worried about buying these items like fans separately because I really don't know what's compatible with what, and neither the Asus nor the Intel bundle comes with a fan. But I did find a fan that should work (Speeze Socket 775 / Intel Prescott 3.4Ghz / Dual Ball Bearing / Copper Core / CPU Cooling Fan).

I'd like PCIeX16 for video, and most motherboards only comes with one of those. I don't know how many PCIeX1 I really want vs how many regular PCI slots I would want. Some comes with 2 PCIeX1 and 3 PCI; others come with 3 PCIeX1 and 2 PCI. I really don't know what is a good balance for the future as so many things are moving towards PCIe but few items are out yet.

I looked at good cases like Lian-Li PC-V2000, Antec P160, and Cooler Master Stacker. The Antec new power supplies called Neo sounds good, but then again, I really don't know much yet.

The goal is a robust, very fine, STABLE PC, that is more of a BMW than a delicate Ferrari. I don't want trouble. High quality, excellent Photoshop/text images are key; gaming is not important at all as I currently don't game, and the reduction of eye strain (I know that is not something PC components can do, it's more of a function of the LCD) are key goals.

I look forward to advice that you guys can give me. Sorry for the length of this posting, but want to properly present the situation.

By the way, in terms of "shopping", are newegg.com, directron.com, and tigerdirect.com the best three out there for USA people?

Thanks!

 

[DualMonitors]

So far, i've managed to choose a case and a power supply, but i still do not fully understand RAID. Mirroring sounds like a good idea to me, but people are suggesting something else: something like several hardrives w/10,000 rpm somehow tied together for faster access times. may i ask for clarification re: raid?

here's my case and power supply choices:

Cooler Master CM Stacker Full-Tower CASE, Model "STC-T01-UW" $159
PLUS: an extra "4-in-3 Module w/fan" for extra front air intake (around $21).

Coolergiant P Series EG485P-SFMA24P
http://www.coolergiant.com/pro...EG485PSFMA.html#images
http://techreport.com/reviews/2004q4/psus/index.x?pg=24

i know i have many more components to choose, but no new motherboards have come out yet...i also have to learn about all the various power connectors from the power supply. the review mentioned which power supply have which type, but i really don't know which types i want, other than the fact that the motherboard i'll want to get will have PCIeX16 and therefore, also PCIeX1 (2 or 3 of these).

thanks again.

 

[DualMonitors]

Oops, forgot to mention budget:

Is a budget of $1,500 to $2,000 for a higher end, full tower, suitable for Photoshop use and general high quality text/websurfing use a decent budget?

I got that figure from two sources: looking at a Dell xps line (which has a surprisingly large, 630-watt power supply) which is roughly around $1,800 or so, and looking at newegg/directron/tigerdirect and adding things up that seem like they are "higher end" or fancy or good/robust quality.

Again, this is for just the tower. I have two panels already. Thanks!

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Edit button, dude.

For just a tower, $1500's hugely overkill, but if you want to squeeze the most out of it, you're in the right place.

I suggest you spend the bulk of your money on storage and RAM. Photoshop loves RAM, as I'm sure you know, and you want to feed it at least 2GB.

Storage - well, you're the one who knows how much raw data you've got to work with, but in any case I'd say take that number, double it, and then add RAID 1 capability. You can never have too much space. Toss in a dual-layer DVD burner as frosting on the cake.

In my opinion, LGA775 and PCIe will do you absolutely no good other than jack up the price of your system. Both are new technology with currently minimal benefits over the old. Stick with the S478 for Intel, or S754 if you want an Athlon 64.

I haven't heard of driver issues with Outlook and such with the P650, but if it's not being good to you no sense in keeping it. Since gaming's no concern to you, pick up a used Quadro card and cables - they support Dual-DVI and have the nVidia tag you're looking for.

That's just the starting thoughts. I'm sure someone will be in to add, replace, or just flame me for suggesting.

- M4H

 

[DualMonitors]

thanks for answering.

my interest for getting a motherboard w/PCIeX16 is not for the utility of PCIeX16 for the video card, but for the expandability and the attempt to somewhat future proof (at least for a couple of years) this PC being built by having PCIeX1: PCIeX1 slots only come with motherboards that have PCIeX16 for the video card.

does that make sense?

 

[footbal07]

i would say wait a couple months and see what nforce 4 has to offer if you are worried about upgradeability

 

[tart666]

Originally posted by: DualMonitors
By the way, in terms of "shopping", are newegg.com, directron.com, and tigerdirect.com the best three out there for USA people?

newegg, mwave, and zipzoomfly are Ok. tigerdirect is the bad. unless you really think bmw's are reliable.

 

[The MACdaddy]

Get at least 2 drives: one to boot from and one as a scratch disk. The scratch can be partition of a large drive, but separate from boot drive, about 8-12 GB is plenty. This way you don't have to worry about defragging it. RAID is a bit overkill for a PS system. That would be more for Video stuff. A couple Raptors is all you need.

Believe me - this is coming from a guy that can score a 714 on PS7Bench.

 

[thirdlegstump]

Get a Mac for Photoshop!

 

[imported_Phil]

Originally posted by: deathkoba
Get a Mac for Photoshop!

:music:Troll, troll, troll your boat...:music:

 

[rshoemaker]

A MAC, of course, is a personal computer made by Apple Corporation. It uses a slow, proprietary processor, and runs a variant of unix.

Kind of like running Slackware on a P-III. Nothing wrong with it. Except that, in this case, when parts are not mass produced, they can't compete price-wise.

 

[addragyn]

"The goal is a robust, very fine, STABLE PC, "

Sounds like you have one.

Your high end Dell is a solid, reliable machine that has a level of polish and low noise you'll be hard pressed to match with a home built. And it still quite fast for your uses.

I've never had a problem with Matrox drivers and they have earned a good rep. I think some troubleshooting may be in order.

My advice. Blow that case out with some compressed air, stick a new 10k or 15k HD in it and do a fresh install onto the new HD. It will feel like a new machine.

I knnow the Dell PS seems low rated but those machines are tested and qualified. Unless you stick a bunch of drives and a mongo vid card in there you'll be fine.

 

[kpb]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Edit button, dude.

For just a tower, $1500's hugely overkill, but if you want to squeeze the most out of it, you're in the right place.

I suggest you spend the bulk of your money on storage and RAM. Photoshop loves RAM, as I'm sure you know, and you want to feed it at least 2GB.

Memory is definitely a good thing. Photoshop how ever will only address 2gbs of memory. Unless you expect to run photoshop and other large apps 2- 2.5gbs is about all you'll ever need.

Storage - well, you're the one who knows how much raw data you've got to work with, but in any case I'd say take that number, double it, and then add RAID 1 capability. You can never have too much space. Toss in a dual-layer DVD burner as frosting on the cake.

Mirroring isn't a bad idead for storage but how ever you do it putting your scratch disk on a seperate partition on a seperate drive is a good idea. Personally I'd probably get a typical 60 or what ever gig hd for system and regular apps. A raptor or 2 in a stripe for scratch if you work with lots of gig + files and a large 400gb Data drive, mirrored or regular backed up.

In my opinion, LGA775 and PCIe will do you absolutely no good other than jack up the price of your system. Both are new technology with currently minimal benefits over the old. Stick with the S478 for Intel, or S754 if you want an Athlon 64.

I'd probably agree with you on that. LGA and PCIe are the way things are going but it's way to early to say that it really gets you anything and odds are it may end up being no better than that eariler p4 with rambus longevity. There's already talk of 1ghz fsb and faster ddr2 memory. Who knows whats gonna happen with PCIe too.

I haven't heard of driver issues with Outlook and such with the P650, but if it's not being good to you no sense in keeping it. Since gaming's no concern to you, pick up a used Quadro card and cables - they support Dual-DVI and have the nVidia tag you're looking for.

That's just the starting thoughts. I'm sure someone will be in to add, replace, or just flame me for suggesting.

- M4H

 

[mooojojojo]

What the hell is up with the overkill on AT forums? 2.5GB RAM for a little Photoshop-ing (and not in a work environment too as far as I can tell)?!

Dual - I think Addragyn gave you the best advice you'll receive. A 2.26GHz P4 is still considered a fairly quick machine depending on the use. And if you do want an upgrade it's never smart to go for the bleeding-edge. Get a 3.0GHz P4 with HT for example with a tried and true 875 ot 865 mobo. I think you'd be hard pressed to notice any significant difference between that and the 3.4GHz combo you mentioned.

There's no reason to be concerned with upgradability at this time. The extra you're going to spend now on a more future proof mobo will likely amout to a large chunk of what you can spend in the future to swap both the mobo and the video card. Speaking of video card, I think that you can find one which has dual-DVI and doesn't cost a fortune, and without investing too much in one, you won't hesitate to change it in the future.

I'd be more concerned with how loud your new system will be, since it's bound to me much more noiser than your current one. And don't go overboard with that RAM. What do you use Photoshop for? If it's not editing high-res posters, I think 1 - 1.5GB will be good. With memory prices at these levels, I wouldn't buy too much.

 

[Lyfer]

Originally posted by: Dopefiend

Originally posted by: deathkoba
Get a Mac for Photoshop!

:music:Troll, troll, troll your boat...:music:

Deathkoba has a good point.

 

[igowerf]

Originally posted by: tart666

Originally posted by: DualMonitors
By the way, in terms of "shopping", are newegg.com, directron.com, and tigerdirect.com the best three out there for USA people?

newegg, mwave, and zipzoomfly are Ok. tigerdirect is the bad. unless you really think bmw's are reliable.

Directron.com is good too.

 

[The MACdaddy]

Originally posted by: rshoemaker
A MAC, of course, is a personal computer made by Apple Corporation. It uses a slow, proprietary processor, and runs a variant of unix.

Kind of like running Slackware on a P-III. Nothing wrong with it. Except that, in this case, when parts are not mass produced, they can't compete price-wise.

To bad YOU can't back up a bit of that crap. I, however like to use facts :

Like These!

Or see below for the best scores: Best overall 2.5GHz G5 (score 714) best P4 Score: 497!

Bottom line... P4s SUCK at Photoshop.

If you truly want the best that money can buy for Photoshop performance - buy a G5 our a Dual Opteron 250.

 

[CraigRT]

Originally posted by: Dopefiend

Originally posted by: deathkoba
Get a Mac for Photoshop!

:music:Troll, troll, troll your boat...:music:

lmao

 

[imported_Phil]

Originally posted by: Lyfer

Originally posted by: Dopefiend

Originally posted by: deathkoba
Get a Mac for Photoshop!

:music:Troll, troll, troll your boat...:music:

Deathkoba has a good point.

He would if he didn't troll the same crap* in any thread involving anything remotely connected to the Mac.

* And by crap, I don't mean "get a mac for photoshop", I mean some of the other nonsense he's been vomiting everywhere.

 

[imported_amx]

Originally posted by: The MACdaddy

Bottom line... P4s SUCK at Photoshop.

If you truly want the best that money can buy for Photoshop performance - buy a G5 our a Dual Opteron 250.

HAHAHAHH

R O F L!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[thermalpaste]

Originally posted by: amx

Originally posted by: The MACdaddy

Bottom line... P4s SUCK at Photoshop.

If you truly want the best that money can buy for Photoshop performance - buy a G5 our a Dual Opteron 250.

HAHAHAHH

R O F L!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HARHARHARHAR..........p4s suck at photoshop............this is outrageous stuff.....ROFLMAO

 

[The MACdaddy]

Numbers don't lie. Its not hard to find on the net. Anything bandwidth stressful (Like PS) P4s suck hind-tit compared to Dual Opterons and Dual G5s. Its an architecture thing. Just like there aren't very many rendering farms that use Xeons - they're mostly Opterons or G5s.

Laugh all you want, it just shows your ignorance of anything beyond your computer.

PS7Bench - 2x3GHs Xeons getting killled by a 2x2.0 G5

 

[Skypix7]

MACdaddy, I think you're missing the point a bit here. Our threadstarter DualMonitors is interested in something between 1500 and 2000 dollars. You're promoting the usual Mac-hype "numbers uber alles" and the hell with the costs. Heck, Opteron 250s cost $849 EACH just for the processors. That's not helping our boy here. Lots of us use Photoshop on PCs with great success, myself included, largely because we can't afford to drop $5K or more every time Apple comes out with another drool-worthy sparkly system for the elitists among us. I'd love to own one of those beautiful but out of reach MAC machines but economics rarely takes a second seat to performance for most of us. So when you promote your MAC bias without acknowledging DualMonitors stated needs, you waste everybody's time who's reading this thread.

Plus, I'm frankly bored with MAC phanatics always touting MACs and denigrating PCs. Sure, I like Jaguar's cool OS and the Ultimate Super Fast machine (this month), but Win2K pro with my Intel rig does a great job for me, has been rock solid primo stable, and that's what we need here: a system that's dependable, has good if not mach5-worthy performance, and is affordable.

So, DualMonitors, here's my 2 cents worth: I've been doing Photoshop with ever-increasing stability and reliability as well as solid performance increases since it began to run on PCs and while I'm also in the market for an (affordable!) Photoshop upgrade myself (see my current system below), I completely disagree with the contention that Photoshop sucks on P4s. For us dudes and chicks on a budget, it works great, if you consider being able to work handily on 150MB files great, which I do.

My take: lots of good advice above, especially retooling the system you have.

I've had this rig for 2 years: Asus P4PE (most stable mobo I've ever had: maybe 3 crashes in 2 years, all on really hot days, use it every day, never once got a blue screen or needed to fdisk either of my drives). P4 2.4, not OC'd. 1 meg 2.5 CL Crucial memory. 240 gigs of Maxtor 7200 hard drives.

I have two Samsung 19" LCD monitors running on a Maxtor 650 dual DVI, love them and the card. I have never had any issues at all with the card, it works like a champ. I find I have been able to make the adjustment to the LCD screens easily...I don't miss the extra finesse of a CRT as my monitors get plenty close enough for my work, which is shipped off to magazines and they tweak it more if they need to anyway. And I'm always happy with my prints, because what I see on screen is very close to my printouts, without any need for calibrating etc., although of course this isn't possible for everybody doing imaging and printing today.

The system is rock solid and I do what someone above advises: running the scratch disk on a different physical drive. Photoshop with 1 gig is not fast enough for me now, mostly because I shoot RAW files with my 8 megapixel camera and when the Browse function in PS is open, the program is sluggish in opening and processing RAW files. Imaging though up to about 150mb images is plenty fast enough. Occasionally the healing brush lags behind and saving these large files takes a few seconds. It's the opening and closing I want to speed up mostly, because I process a couple hundred images from each shoot so that's where my workflow bottleneck is.

Yep, I backup all my images to DVD, twice, i.e. a redundant DVD for each backup. I hope the media stands up to the test of long term, but I expect like we all do I'll just upgrade and transfer my imaging data as technology rolls ever onward. Hell, some of my early slides (I'm an aviation photographer) are starting to fade, so nothing's permanent, and digital offers ultimately greater longevity than any physical medium ever will...we just have to keep ahead of the power curve re deterioriating mediums.

My rap on that topic: I just don't feel right trusting hard drives with megagigs of images, it would kill my stock photo business to have a drive go down, and I don't want to pay hundreds to recover images from a hard drive crash.

My general take for your upgrade to speed up Photoshopping is a faster cpu (within cost limitations), faster mobo (800 FSB like with the Asus P4P800E-Deluxe that some on this forum recommend, or an AMD system, I don't know what to recommend there) faster hard drives (I don'mess with RAID, I just backup everything on my dual DVD at 7-8 min per 4.5gb disk (when dual blanks come out I can archive 8.5 gigs per disk).

No reason you shouldn't be able to get a screamer system for under $1500.

I'd look into dual processors for PC, don't know enough about those to know if they radically improve photoshop, although MACdaddy's chart seems to show they definitely do.

Hope all this verbiage helps.

 

[Confusednewbie1552]

Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire

In my opinion, LGA775 and PCIe will do you absolutely no good other than jack up the price of your system. Both are new technology with currently minimal benefits over the old. Stick with the S478 for Intel, or S754 if you want an Athlon 64.

- M4H

OK so don't listen to me, but let me just give this suggestion out, but you might want to go for a Socket 939 AMD Athlon 64 proccesor instead of a Socket 754 because Photoshop needs ram, you can't use the three RAM slots in a Socket 754 MOBO without haing it go to DDR333. However Socket 939 MOBOs have 4 RAM slots and can go to DDR400 using three RAM slots. I don't know maybe someone can comment and confirm this.

 

[The MACdaddy]

Originally posted by: Skypix7
MACdaddy, I think you're missing the point a bit here...

No I'm not. Look at the Windows zealot's post that started the crap.

My initial post was discouraging him from investing in a RAID sys - when just 2 drives is all you need. Some OTHER guy said just buy a Mac, then the WINDOWS Zealot made some very inaccurate claims. I want to help out the initial poster as much as the next guy, but I'm not sitting idly by why some ignorant ill-informed zealot craps all over Macs when its obvious he hasn't a clue.