Buell Folds

[MiataNC]

http://www.buell.com/en_us/
http://superbikeplanet.com/200...t/091015buellfolds.htm

EAST TROY, Wis. (Oct. 15, 2009) - Buell Motorcycle Company officials thanked the company's customers, employees and dealers for an unforgettable ride, following today's announcement by Harley-Davidson, Inc. that it will discontinue the Buell® product line as part of Harley-Davidson's go-forward business strategy. The new long-term strategy aims to drive Company growth through a focus of efforts and resources on the Harley-Davidson® brand.

 

[brblx]

The new long-term strategy aims to drive Company growth through a focus of efforts and resources on the Harley-Davidson® brand.

i.e. the new long term strategy aims to focus on extremely overpriced cruisers in an attempt to remain profitable.

 

[EightySix Four]

At least they are selling MV Agusta instead of shutting it down. VW has been interested in purchasing Ducati, wonder if they'd take MV instead. The Brutale is such an awesome bike.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

That's too bad, even if I never really "got" Buells when compared to their European competition.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: brblx

The new long-term strategy aims to drive Company growth through a focus of efforts and resources on the Harley-Davidson® brand.

i.e. the new long term strategy aims to focus on extremely overpriced cruisers in an attempt to remain profitable.

If that were the case, why would they keep Erik Buell on as an employee? Buell's statement that he, "look forward to exploring how I can continue to work with Harley-Davidson to bring advanced product technology to riders" would seem to indicate that he will remain an Employee of Harley-Davidson.

While Harley has explicitly stated that they will not be re-badging existing Buell models as Harley-Davidson bikes their decision to continue working with Erik Buell would seem to indicate that they have at least tentative plans to introduce more sporting models bearing the Harley-Davidson name in the future. I doubt they plan to push anything as sporty as the Buell-branded bikes, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the VROD and the XR1200 develop more sporting variants now.

ZV

 

[angry hampster]

Such a shame, IMO. Their bikes in the last ten years have been the most radical looking motorcycles on the market.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Wow, I guess nobody guessed that was what they meant by that crushed Buell Blast marketing campaign.

 

[andylawcc]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Wow, I guess nobody guessed that was what they meant by that crushed Buell Blast marketing campaign.

kind of a sad ironic

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
That's too bad, even if I never really "got" Buells when compared to their European competition.

Agreed. I rode to work this morning and spent the better part of my freeway commute next to a guy on a Buell street fighter that looked and sounded pretty cool. Too bad they can't keep the company afloat.

 

[DVad3r]

Damm that sucks, just when things were starting to get interesting for Buell. I always liked the XB12XT model. I wonder how much they are going now for at the dealerships, especially the 09 models.

Hey Jules I never knew you were black

 

[IcePickFreak]

Bad news, I have a few friends that work at Harley and it's been pretty unstable the past year or so. They've got to be bleeding money somewhere if they can't turn a profit with the prices on their bikes and merchandise. They're cruisers are by no means state-of-the-art, yet somehow a Harley bagger costs the same, if not more, than an Italian Superbike with exotic materials, and cutting edge engine/chassis/drivetrain design. I'd also wager Harley sells more baggers alone than Ducati, Aprilia, Agusta (who they've owned for the past year or so) sell of their sport bikes, but then again I'm in Milwaukee so my polling data may be ridiculously skewed.

 

[mwmorph]

Buell makes some unique bikes. That's sad, I was seriously considering my next bike to be something like a XB9SX, I really liked how those looked and rode, especially as a daily rider.

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: Don Vito Corleone
That's too bad, even if I never really "got" Buells when compared to their European competition.

They were actually starting to beat the euro bikes at the track. This past year they have been big winners at the track.

 

[Fenixgoon]

i guess they decided to go with the 2010 buell blast strategy across the entire product line


<--- will burn in hell

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: IcePickFreak
They're cruisers are by no means state-of-the-art,

Yeah, a dry-sump oiling system and multi-point electronic fuel injection across the entire line are such old-fashioned ideas. And then there's that ancient carbon-fibre drive belt. I mean, what kind of dinosaur machinery uses carbon fibre anymore? Don't even get me started on how the twincam engines use an out-dated idea like oil jets to cool the underside of the pistons or how Harley uses an old-fashioned hydraulic disc as the rear brake on all models while most of the competing cruisers use a state-of-the-art mechanical drum. Oh yeah, and the use of maintenance-free hydraulic lifters rather than fiddly solid lifters; what was Harley thinking?

There is a lot more technology packed into a modern Harley than most people realise; just because they have kept the 45-degree pushrod V-twin packaging doesn't mean there isn't some pretty nifty stuff going on within the engine.

ZV

 

[MiataNC]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
There is a lot more technology packed into a modern Harley than most people realise; just because they have kept the 45-degree pushrod V-twin packaging doesn't mean there isn't some pretty nifty stuff going on within the engine.

ZV

No offense, but how much polish can you put on an dinosaur turd?

I loved everything about Buells EXCEPT the lump between the frame rails. If the 1125R was not so ugly (radiator placement/cowls are obscene), it would have been a close call between that and the Triumph Speed 3 for me.

Firebolt XB12R
@1200CCs
Horsepower (bhp): 103 bhp
Torque (Ft Lbs): 84 lbs
Redline RPM: 7100 RPM
5 Speed gearbox

Even Buell knew they needed a better lump and it barely holds its own against Japanese 600s, and even then they get special (cheating) rules in AMA racing. They didn't even bother to field it against the 1000cc 4s or 1098/1198 Ducs....

Buell 1125R (Rotax powered and liquid cooled)
Horsepower (bhp): 146 bhp
Torque (Ft Lbs): 82 lbs
Redline RPM: 10500 RPM
6 Speed gearbox

Similar Jap/Ita Twins with 200CC less motor.

Ducati 999
Horsepower (bhp): 140 bhp
Torque (Ft Lbs): 82 lbs
Redline RPM: 9500 RPM
6 Speed gearbox

Suzuki SV1000
Horsepower (bhp): 116 bhp
Torque (Ft Lbs): 75 lbs
Redline RPM: 8500 RPM
6 Speed gearbox

Suzuki TL1000
Horsepower (bhp): 125 bhp
Torque (Ft Lbs): 77 lbs
Redline RPM: 8500 RPM
6 Speed gearbox

Honda RC-51
Horsepower (bhp): 126 bhp
Torque (Ft Lbs): 75 lbs
Redline RPM: 9000 RPM
6 Speed gearbox

 

[IcePickFreak]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
There is a lot more technology packed into a modern Harley

Than an Italian superbike? Look, I can take things out of context too.

In the world of 'state-of-the-art' all that stuff is old news. Are you really trying to justify a Harley cruisers price compared to a superbike? I'm not saying a Harley is junk, I'm saying it's amazing with the ridiculous mark-up on their bikes that they aren't turning a profit. Same with the ridiculous mark-up on their apparrel/merchandise; and please don't explain it's because they use the 'state-of-the-art' silk screening process.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: IcePickFreak
They're cruisers are by no means state-of-the-art,

Yeah, a dry-sump oiling system and multi-point electronic fuel injection across the entire line are such old-fashioned ideas. And then there's that ancient carbon-fibre drive belt. I mean, what kind of dinosaur machinery uses carbon fibre anymore? Don't even get me started on how the twincam engines use an out-dated idea like oil jets to cool the underside of the pistons or how Harley uses an old-fashioned hydraulic disc as the rear brake on all models while most of the competing cruisers use a state-of-the-art mechanical drum. Oh yeah, and the use of maintenance-free hydraulic lifters rather than fiddly solid lifters; what was Harley thinking?

There is a lot more technology packed into a modern Harley than most people realise; just because they have kept the 45-degree pushrod V-twin packaging doesn't mean there isn't some pretty nifty stuff going on within the engine.

ZV

Yet they are still underpowered, heavy, pigs.

 

[halik]

Some of the engineering on buells was awesome (structurally - frames with tanks to keep cg down and radially mounted rotors etc.), but the motors were garbage. I've never ridden one myself, but all the feedback i got from my friends is that it will rattle your nuts out and gets very squirelly when taking hard corners (short wheelbase?)

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: MiataNC

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
There is a lot more technology packed into a modern Harley than most people realise; just because they have kept the 45-degree pushrod V-twin packaging doesn't mean there isn't some pretty nifty stuff going on within the engine.

ZV

No offense, but how much polish can you put on an dinosaur turd?

I loved everything about Buells EXCEPT the lump between the frame rails. If the 1125R was not so ugly (radiator placement/cowls are obscene), it would have been a close call between that and the Triumph Speed 3 for me.

Yeah, and if I take the engine out of an S2000 and stick it into a pickup it'll suck too.

I agree that the Harley V-twin was a horrible choice for a sportbike engine. That doesn't make it "old fashioned", it just means that it was designed for a different purpose. I compared the Harleys as cruisers against other cruisers. A person would have to be certifiably insane to compare a Harley cruiser to a sportbike. That's like cross-shopping a Miata and a Lincoln Town Car. Two completely different purposes.

ZV

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: IcePickFreak

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
There is a lot more technology packed into a modern Harley

Than an Italian superbike? Look, I can take things out of context too.

In the world of 'state-of-the-art' all that stuff is old news. Are you really trying to justify a Harley cruisers price compared to a superbike? I'm not saying a Harley is junk, I'm saying it's amazing with the ridiculous mark-up on their bikes that they aren't turning a profit. Same with the ridiculous mark-up on their apparrel/merchandise; and please don't explain it's because they use the 'state-of-the-art' silk screening process.

They are ridiculously expensive for what you get.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: MiataNC

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
There is a lot more technology packed into a modern Harley than most people realise; just because they have kept the 45-degree pushrod V-twin packaging doesn't mean there isn't some pretty nifty stuff going on within the engine.

ZV

No offense, but how much polish can you put on an dinosaur turd?

I loved everything about Buells EXCEPT the lump between the frame rails. If the 1125R was not so ugly (radiator placement/cowls are obscene), it would have been a close call between that and the Triumph Speed 3 for me.

Yeah, and if I take the engine out of an S2000 and stick it into a pickup it'll suck too.

I agree that the Harley V-twin was a horrible choice for a sportbike engine. That doesn't make it "old fashioned", it just means that it was designed for a different purpose. I compared the Harleys as cruisers against other cruisers. A person would have to be certifiably insane to compare a Harley cruiser to a sportbike. That's like cross-shopping a Miata and a Lincoln Town Car. Two completely different purposes.

ZV

A better way to put it would be taking the engine out of a truck and putting it into a Formula One chassis. And isn't that exactly what Buell did in the beginning? I was glad to see them abandoning the Harley engines in favor of the Rotax engine. Too bad they didn't do it a decade ago, they might have done better.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: IcePickFreak

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
There is a lot more technology packed into a modern Harley

Than an Italian superbike? Look, I can take things out of context too.

In the world of 'state-of-the-art' all that stuff is old news. Are you really trying to justify a Harley cruisers price compared to a superbike? I'm not saying a Harley is junk, I'm saying it's amazing with the ridiculous mark-up on their bikes that they aren't turning a profit. Same with the ridiculous mark-up on their apparrel/merchandise; and please don't explain it's because they use the 'state-of-the-art' silk screening process.

I took nothing you said out of context. I merely isolated the specific comment to which I was replying. You said the cruisers weren't exactly state-of-the-art and I provided several examples to show that, within the cruiser market, they are quite advanced when compared to the cruisers offered by competing manufacturers.

I'm not the one trying to compare a cruiser to a supersport, that would be you. If you had intended to convey that the technology used in Harley cruisers is not the proper basis for a sportbike engine, you should have made yourself clear. I cannot be faulted for failing to be telepathic and for responding to what you actually wrote rather than what you were thinking.

If you want a sportbike, you're a moron if you're shopping for a Harley. If you want a supersport, you're an even bigger moron if you're shopping for a Harley. Just like if you want a cruiser you're a moron to be shopping for a ZX-14 or a Ducati.

The merchandise is certainly overpriced, which is why I don't buy it. They charge a lot for that because RUBs are willing to pay it, but like any luxury good demand falls very sharply when the economy falters.

As far as the ridiculous profit margin on the bikes themselves, that's debatable. The paint and chrome on the Harleys I've seen has been unquestionably superior to those on metric cruisers. Even the "top of the line" Honda VTX1800 uses copious amounts of chromed or painted plastic whereas every single panel on my low-end Sportster is metal. There's a lot of cost involved in the choice to use metal over plastics for things like side covers, fenders, and lighting trim. While Harley bikes do command some premium because of the name, this premium is not as much as it initially would seem; both for materials reasons and for workforce reasons (union contracts, etc).

I'm not a die-hard Harley fan. If I could have any bike in the world right now, I'd be trying to choose between an older Valkyrie or the new Triumph Rocket III. But I do enjoy Harleys for what they are and I love my Sportster; just as I love my old Honda Nighthawk 450. It's just really annoying when the sportbike kiddies start dumping on cruisers for being cruisers. It doesn't make sense.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Yeah, and if I take the engine out of an S2000 and stick it into a pickup it'll suck too.

I agree that the Harley V-twin was a horrible choice for a sportbike engine. That doesn't make it "old fashioned", it just means that it was designed for a different purpose. I compared the Harleys as cruisers against other cruisers. A person would have to be certifiably insane to compare a Harley cruiser to a sportbike. That's like cross-shopping a Miata and a Lincoln Town Car. Two completely different purposes.

ZV

A better way to put it would be taking the engine out of a truck and putting it into a Formula One chassis. And isn't that exactly what Buell did in the beginning? I was glad to see them abandoning the Harley engines in favor of the Rotax engine. Too bad they didn't do it a decade ago, they might have done better.

That's precisely my point, actually. The Harley engine was a terrible choice for a sportbike, just as a sportbike engine would be a terrible choice for a cruiser. As the British would say, "horses for courses".

Using the fact that a Harley cruiser is a bad sportbike as proof that they're inferior is simply ridiculous, yet that's precisely what icepick's post conveyed.

People are free to prefer cruisers or to prefer sportbikes, but I don't run around bitching that a ZX-14 doesn't have enough torque below 4,000 RPM or that it's not comfortable for a passenger or that it's uncomfortable for a 1,000 mile trip because I don't like being bent over. And the reason I don't bitch about that is because it's a supersport and those are inherent trade-offs made in the quest for all-out speed and power. It would be nice if the zip-splat crowd would at least occasionally recognize that cruisers are the way they are because of deliberate trade-offs to make them more comfortable and less tiring to ride on public roads rather than simply complaining that cruisers aren't as fast or as light as a CBR or a Ninja.

ZV

 

[andylawcc]

Zem:

your point well-taken.

now, onto another heated-debate or stereotype if you will - "Harley's engine are unreliable, and expensive to maintain and find parts for."

Does this hold any truth?