Budget programming PC *Critique/suggestions welcome*

[wand3r3r]

A friend asked for input on a budget pc primarily for programming.


1. What YOUR PC will be used for.
Programming, homework etc. Probably Visual studio, SQL Server etc running locally. Should also be easily capable of gaming if he chooses to add a GPU in the future.
At this point he will use integrated graphics or the e.g. 2500k gpu if that's the route.

2. What YOUR budget is.
As little as possible, but future proof to some extent (or at least powerful enough, not lacking atm).
I was thinking $500ish but it should really get the sweet spot of whats available. Perhaps the sweet spot is really closer to $600? He said he wants the 'sweet spot' but I know money doesn't grow on trees in his world.


3. What country
US

4. brand preference.
Nope, performance / $. That seems to indicate an i7 but unsure if the budget will suffice.

5. YOUR current parts
none

6. IF YOU have searched and/or read similar threads.
Not in this price range really? I usually look above it for myself. I've read plenty about higher end stuff but not so much with such budgetary constraints.

7. overclocking
perhaps he'll oc it if the components are such that beg to be set free.

8. What resolution YOU plan on gaming with.
Not for gaming. If he purchases a GPU in the future it'll likely be for 1920x1080.

9. WHEN do you plan to build it?
Early September.

 

[wand3r3r]

I was tentatively debating the AMD/Intel route. Personally I think he should go with the 2500K and without a gpu it could possibly be had for $500is?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Intel

Processor: i5 2500k $180
Microcenter 2500K
vs
i5 2400 @ MC $150
vs
i3 2100 @ MC $100


Motherboard: (tbd) needs to have the video out for the integrated GPU in the 2500k. What would be the best budget board? USB3, SATA3 preferable?

mAtx
ASRock H61M $60 - lack of SATA 6Gb/s
vs.
ATX
GA-Z68P-DS3 - $110
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128520


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AMD

tbd

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ram: 8 GB value ram: $45 (tbd) Does the 2500k overclock only by the multiplier, meaning this could be the basic 1333MHz or whatever?
Microcenter value DDR3 1333 2x4GB
vs

G.Skill DDR3 1333 8GB $40 AP


HDD : Samsung F3 1 TB? Is there a better bang for the buck HDD yet?
Samsung F3 1TB $60
+
SSD ?
OCZ Agility 3 120 GB $165 After MIR


Video card: none (or the very minimal if no integrated available)

PSU: Antec earthwatts 650 $60 after MIR (tbd)
Antec Earthwatts 650 ($60 after MIR)
vs.
Corsair 430CX $35 AR - it's got 28A on the 12V, so you can run a reasonably-powerful midrange GPU from it



Case:
Microcenter Antec 200 v2 on sale for 35 with MIR
OR
Microcenter Antec 300 on sale for 45 with MIR
VS
mAtx
Fractal Design Core 1000 $40


Optical:
Sony optiarc DVD Burner $20

Keyboard / mouse: (tbd)

Windows is already accounted for elsewhere. (MSDNAA/.edu)

 

[zi0n.]

You will be able to use the integrated and OC if you grab an Z68 MB.

500$ without GPU should be easy.

MC 2500k - $180

GA-Z68P-DS3 - $110
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128520

G.Skill 8GB - $45
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231308

Samsung F3 1 TB - $60
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822152185

CORSAIR Builder Series CX430w $ 45
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139026

Optical -? $25 at max

Case of Choice - $60~

You could probably grab a combo @ MC with the 2500K for cheaper.

EDIT: I forgot Windows in case you DO need it so I guess Ken's idea is better.

 

[Ken g6]

Programming, homework etc. Probably Visual studio, SQL Server etc running locally.

I'm guessing your friend is a student. Does he have access to cheap or free Microsoft software, such as Windows? I recall such stuff was downloadable for me when I was a student years ago.

As a programmer myself, I'd consider the 2100 more "interesting". It's cheap, but it also has hyper-threading, which would be interesting to try multi-threading different types of code with. Or the hyper-threading can be turned off to get a more standard multi-threading performance metric. It should be OK for gaming, too. With a Z68 board, he could also upgrade to Ivy Bridge later, which will allow OpenCL programming on its integrated GPU.

Any cheap 1333MHz DDR3 (with a return policy) is fine.

Are you intending to get everything from Micro Center, or is mail-order like Newegg fine too?

 

[DaveSimmons]

Note it's an i5-2500K not i7 as you list in your second post.

> Ram: (tbd) Does the 2500k overclock only by the multiplier, meaning this could be the basic 1333MHz or whatever?

Yes, but I'd never overclock a PC used for development work. If the OC is only 99% stable you might waste hours on "code bugs" that are really caused by the OC corrupting RAM or files.

One option to save $30-40 would be i5-2500 (non-K) and a H67 chipset motherboard, with no overclocking.

 

[piasabird]

If you like nice looking black cases try this one. I understand everyone has their own idea of what a case should look like.

If you are going to go with an integrated video then maybe consider an Antec case with a power supply included. That might actually save you some money. I like the Antec New Solution Value Cases.

http://www.directron.com/nsk6582b.html

Black Antec New Solution NSK 6582B
I have a case just like this in MATX. It seems very quiet.

Check out the new comparison of processors on the anandtech front page. It is an interesting article. The i-2100 is barely faster than the G850. I still like the quads, even though they are more expensive. They would be more future proof. I never wished I had purchased a processor that was slower!

 

[wand3r3r]

You will be able to use the integrated and OC if you grab an Z68 MB.

500$ without GPU should be easy.

MC 2500k - $180

GA-Z68P-DS3 - $110
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813128520

G.Skill 8GB - $45
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820231308

Samsung F3 1 TB - $60
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822152185

CORSAIR Builder Series CX430w $ 45
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139026

Optical -? $25 at max

Case of Choice - $60~

You could probably grab a combo @ MC with the 2500K for cheaper.

EDIT: I forgot Windows in case you DO need it so I guess Ken's idea is better.

Thanks, I forgot about windows... That looks good, I am thinking along those lines but am not up to date on the exact details on the SB builds. I'll take a look at the MC combos and update if I find any deals. Forgot the optical as well.

One thought on the power, I'd like to leave the door open for e.g. a 560 ti or 6950 down the road (or 7950/7870). I guess SB doesn't need much power but if you have a 200watt GPU that seems a bit underpowered? (Granted that wasn't listed as a requirement, I'll update the post)

I'm guessing your friend is a student. Does he have access to cheap or free Microsoft software, such as Windows? I recall such stuff was downloadable for me when I was a student years ago.

As a programmer myself, I'd consider the 2100 more "interesting". It's cheap, but it also has hyper-threading, which would be interesting to try multi-threading different types of code with. Or the hyper-threading can be turned off to get a more standard multi-threading performance metric. It should be OK for gaming, too. With a Z68 board, he could also upgrade to Ivy Bridge later, which will allow OpenCL programming on its integrated GPU.

Any cheap 1333MHz DDR3 (with a return policy) is fine.

Are you intending to get everything from Micro Center, or is mail-order like Newegg fine too?

Hmm, good points. Yeah Windows is available free or nearly free (MSDNAA/.edu not sure which would be applicable )

The microcenter thing is primarily due to it being (basically the only PC shop) in the area. Of course newegg/online are all alternatives but I don't mind supporting them being I've gotten many deals from them. Price is king in all cases, if there is a compelling reason to use another store it's no question.

Now that's a thought, I should read a bit more about the i3 2100. I saw the hot deals had a combo deal recently so it could be significantly cheaper and he could possibly get a GPU or a screen with the savings. Hmm, need to weigh the pros/cons. Thanks for the thoughts!

Note it's an i5-2500K not i7 as you list in your second post.

> Ram: (tbd) Does the 2500k overclock only by the multiplier, meaning this could be the basic 1333MHz or whatever?

Yes, but I'd never overclock a PC used for development work. If the OC is only 99% stable you might waste hours on "code bugs" that are really caused by the OC corrupting RAM or files.

One option to save $30-40 would be i5-2500 (non-K) and a H67 chipset motherboard, with no overclocking.

Ah the i5.. Hadn't paid enough attention.

Good point on the OCing. At this point it would likely be a *mild* OC if at all as he's not to familiar with the whole OCing thing. Good thing to keep in mind. I'll also check into the i5-2500 but I'm not sure MC has a discount on them(?).

One more question, now there's been Z68 and H67 thrown out. I haven't followed the SB specifics (waiting for X58 successors myself). I need to read up a bit unless someone can easily summarize them.

 

[wand3r3r]

If you like nice looking black cases try this one. I understand everyone has their own idea of what a case should look like.

If you are going to go with an integrated video then maybe consider an Antec case with a power supply included. That might actually save you some money. I like the Antec New Solution Value Cases.

http://www.directron.com/nsk6582b.html

Black Antec New Solution NSK 6582B
I have a case just like this in MATX. It seems very quiet.

Check out the new comparison of processors on the anandtech front page. It is an interesting article. The i-2100 is barely faster than the G850. I still like the quads, even though they are more expensive. They would be more future proof. I never wished I had purchased a processor that was slower!

Hmm now mAtx just crossed my mind.

That case looks nice. I'll have to check out that article too.


I never wished I had purchased a processor that was slower! That is the quote of the day and applies to everything in the case

 

[DaveSimmons]

i5-2500 K = overclocking and turbo boost (automatic OC when <4 cores in use). Also HD3000 graphics, faster than the HD2000 for gaming (still not very good)
i5- 2300 / 2400 / 2500 = no overclocking, just turbo boost
i3-2100 and Pentium = no overclocking, no turbo boost.

Z68 = usually video out but not always. Overclocking, SSD cache drive option
P67 = never video out. Overclocking,
H67 = video out. No overclocking regardless of chip
H61 = video out. No overclocking regardless of chip, no SATA 6 Gb (only matters for a SSD disk)

 

[Ken g6]

Edit: DaveSimmons answered the chipsets.

I'd go for a Z68, like the one mentioned above. If he's up for for mail-in rebates, this mATX board is also good option. With the 2100, it's cheap, but there's plenty of room to upgrade later.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Note it's an i5-2500K not i7 as you list in your second post.

> Ram: (tbd) Does the 2500k overclock only by the multiplier, meaning this could be the basic 1333MHz or whatever?

Yes, but I'd never overclock a PC used for development work. If the OC is only 99&#37; stable you might waste hours on "code bugs" that are really caused by the OC corrupting RAM or files.

One option to save $30-40 would be i5-2500 (non-K) and a H67 chipset motherboard, with no overclocking.

False. ANY data corruption will cause the CPU and therefore the computer to completely crash in less than a second from it occurring.

OP:

Since this is a computer for work, your friend will probably want little noise and for it to last a long time. Because of that I'd advise you only go 1.3V on the CPU voltage while getting a CPU cooler like a Corsair A50 or a Cooler Master Hyper 212+. Both can be had for under $30, though the A50 is better overall. That will allow your friend to go to around 4.2-4.4GHz while keeping temps at the high 50Cs to low 60Cs and while keeping noise low.

If your friend only wants a mild or no OC go for a Core i5 2400 instead. It's cheaper than the 2500 and stock performance should only be 5% lower. Both can also be overclocked to around 3.8GHz on stock voltage safely. Whether he wants to do a mild or moderate OC, I recommend he gets a custom heatsink for noise and lower temps. If he's not gonna OC at all, he can use the stock cooler instead.

Also, over-clocking in Sandy Bridge only works if you have a CPU that supports Turbo Boost.

As for the motherboard, if he wants to do no OCing, he'll be fine with a low-end H61 motherboard. If he'll OC he should go for Z68 since he won't need to get a dedicated GPU and motherboard prices are not much higher than H67.

 

[wand3r3r]

Matx is an interesting thought and that board seems to have the desired criteria. One more question about that nice processor comparison, they all are sb so do they all have the integrated gpu? You mention 3000 vs 2000 but I think if he decides to game itll be necessary to buy a gpu anyway. Can they all handle hd video etc?

 

[Ken g6]

False. ANY data corruption will cause the CPU and therefore the computer to completely crash in less than a second from it occurring.

Tell that to all the people who swear their system is stable, but Prime95 or PrimeGrid (see my sig) reports errors.

 

[wand3r3r]

False. ANY data corruption will cause the CPU and therefore the computer to completely crash in less than a second from it occurring.

OP:

Since this is a computer for work, your friend will probably want little noise and for it to last a long time. Because of that I'd advise you only go 1.3V on the CPU voltage while getting a CPU cooler like a Corsair A50 or a Cooler Master Hyper 212+. Both can be had for under $30, though the A50 is better overall. That will allow your friend to go to around 4.2-4.4GHz while keeping temps at the high 50Cs to low 60Cs and while keeping noise low.

If your friend only wants a mild or no OC go for a Core i5 2400 instead. It's cheaper than the 2500 and stock performance should only be 5% lower. Both can also be overclocked to around 3.8GHz on stock voltage safely. Whether he wants to do a mild or moderate OC, I recommend he gets a custom heatsink for noise and lower temps. If he's not gonna OC at all, he can use the stock cooler instead.

Also, over-clocking in Sandy Bridge only works if you have a CPU that supports Turbo Boost.

As for the motherboard, if he wants to do no OCing, he'll be fine with a low-end H61 motherboard. If he'll OC he should go for Z68 since he won't need to get a dedicated GPU and motherboard prices are not much higher than H67.

Good to know about turbo and ocing. I also forgot about the cooler, I'll have to see what his thoughts are.

Note to self: Touch screens and typing are not yet meant to be!

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Tell that to all the people who swear their system is stable, but Prime95 or PrimeGrid (see my sig) reports errors.

There wasn't any data corruption on the CPU itself, hence it continued running. If there was the CPU would just shut down/the computer would BSOD. Things like Prime95 automatically pause when they detect any errors to prevent this exactly.

In any case, most of the people I see making these claims are the same people you see running stock out of fear. When over-clocking it's a good idea to keep voltage and CPU frequency at a moderate level. There's no need to have a 2500K at over 1.35V and over 4.6GHz, especially since the higher you go the more stability decreases. For a computer you'll service, even if it's for work, there's no problem with over-clocking as long as you have seen it's completely stable for what you're doing.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Good to know about turbo and ocing. I also forgot about the cooler, I'll have to see what his thoughts are.

Note to self: Touch screens and typing are not yet meant to be!

If he has no experience OCing I'd recommend he go for a Core i5 2400. It's only $150 on Newegg and if he doesn't want to OC it'll only be 5% slower than the i5 2500K. If he only wants a mild OC he should go that route, too. Unless he wants 4GHz or higher there's little reason to go for an unlocked Core i5.

 

[Ken g6]

If he's not overclocking and/or he's getting anything but a K-series CPU, the stock cooler will do just fine.

 

[Ken g6]

There wasn't any data corruption on the CPU itself, hence it continued running. If there was the CPU would just shut down/the computer would BSOD. Things like Prime95 automatically pause when they detect any errors to prevent this exactly.

Maybe when set to do stress tests they do. The rest of the time, Prime95 or LLR just stops working because the result is corrupted and there's no point continuing with the test.

Some instructions on a CPU may not work at high overclocks, usually floating-point instructions in the case of Prime95, while others, like the basic integer instructions the OS depends on, continue to work just fine.

 

[ghost03]

Couple of points:
1.) If budget is a very big concern, he might want to get a cheaper Sandy Bridge like previously mentioned. Certainly large compiles can benefit from a faster CPU, but from you saying that he will be doing homework type problems with it, I would think the compiles would be [relatively] small such that performance wouldn't matter all that much.

2.) While a GPU might not be necessary if he is not interested in gaming, I think a mid-range card supporting CUDA, OpenCL, etc. would be nice to have. This would allow him to practice coding massively parallel apps.

3.) Overclocking is probably OK in moderation but if he is trying to get work done any system crashes are going to be super annoying. I wouldn't let him get carried away with any serious OCing.

4.) As far as computers always crashing due to data corruption, I do not believe this is correct and that you can in fact have unintended results from corruption without a crash. Let's say our CPU is adding two numbers, let them be "0101" (5) and "0111" (7). The result should be "1100" (12). Before the addition takes place, the "5" and "7" must be stored in cache. Let's say the 2nd most significant bit in "0101" (5) is corrupted and flips from 1 to 0. The CPU will now add "0001" (1) and "0111" (7), yielding "1000" (8), the wrong answer. If 8 is outside of an appropriate range, the computer may crash. If it is a coordinate, for example, the CPU may not have a way of knowing it's wrong. This is a relatively frequent occurrence in aerospace applications--cosmic rays and other such nasty things have a habit of corrupting bits in caches and memories. As such, you don't see a modern x86 CPU in a mission critical space application such as navigation--I do not believe they have the requisite data redundancy.

 

[Ken g6]

2.) While a GPU might not be necessary if he is not interested in gaming, I think a mid-range card supporting CUDA, OpenCL, etc. would be nice to have. This would allow him to practice coding massively parallel apps.

Good point. If he's interested in such things, This GT-430 would be perfect. If you want to know how code run there would perform on an average (slightly overclocked) GTX-460, just multiply the performance by 4.

 

[Pia]

The chances of a random student ending up doing so hardware-involved programming that the computer innards make any difference are *minuscule*.

Drop the HD, replace with a cheap SSD. That's the one thing which will actually make a difference in how fast the computer feels.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

Maybe when set to do stress tests they do. The rest of the time, Prime95 or LLR just stops working because the result is corrupted and there's no point continuing with the test.

Some instructions on a CPU may not work at high overclocks, usually floating-point instructions in the case of Prime95, while others, like the basic integer instructions the OS depends on, continue to work just fine.

Couple of points:
1.) If budget is a very big concern, he might want to get a cheaper Sandy Bridge like previously mentioned. Certainly large compiles can benefit from a faster CPU, but from you saying that he will be doing homework type problems with it, I would think the compiles would be [relatively] small such that performance wouldn't matter all that much.

2.) While a GPU might not be necessary if he is not interested in gaming, I think a mid-range card supporting CUDA, OpenCL, etc. would be nice to have. This would allow him to practice coding massively parallel apps.

3.) Overclocking is probably OK in moderation but if he is trying to get work done any system crashes are going to be super annoying. I wouldn't let him get carried away with any serious OCing.

4.) As far as computers always crashing due to data corruption, I do not believe this is correct and that you can in fact have unintended results from corruption without a crash. Let's say our CPU is adding two numbers, let them be "0101" (5) and "0111" (7). The result should be "1100" (12). Before the addition takes place, the "5" and "7" must be stored in cache. Let's say the 2nd most significant bit in "0101" (5) is corrupted and flips from 1 to 0. The CPU will now add "0001" (1) and "0111" (7), yielding "1000" (8), the wrong answer. If 8 is outside of an appropriate range, the computer may crash. If it is a coordinate, for example, the CPU may not have a way of knowing it's wrong. This is a relatively frequent occurrence in aerospace applications--cosmic rays and other such nasty things have a habit of corrupting bits in caches and memories. As such, you don't see a modern x86 CPU in a mission critical space application such as navigation--I do not believe they have the requisite data redundancy.

Great info here, learned many things. :thumbsup:

So, to recap:

If your friend is gonna OC, make sure it's at moderate levels for the frequency and voltage (try to keep the CPU at 4-4.5GHz and around 1.3-1.32V). If it's an over-clock under that, get the Core i5 2400. In either of these situations, it's advisable to get a cheap custom heatsink like a Corsair A50 or CM Hyper 212+ for low temps, low noise, and high longevity. If it's gonna be at stock, the stock cooler will be fine. At stock, H61 is fine, too. If you're gonna over-clock go straight for a Z68 motherboard because your friend will be able to use the integrated GPU. He may also want to look into a mainstream or low-end GPU like the Radeon HD 5670 or lower.

 

[mfenn]

OP, here's a build:
i5 2400 @ MC $150
ASRock H61M $60 - lack of SATA 6Gb/s could theoretically become an issue, but probably not
G.Skill DDR3 1333 8GB $40 AP
Samsung F3 1TB $60
Samsung DVD Burner $20
Corsair 430CX $35 AR - it's got 28A on the 12V, so you can run a reasonably-powerful midrange GPU from it
Fractal Design Core 1000 $40
Total: $405 AR AP

That's $100 less than your budget and I doubt your friend would notice a performance difference (outside of benchmarks) between this machine and anything else that's being thrown around in this thread.

 

[Pia]

OP, here's a build:
...
Total: $405 AR AP

That's $100 less than your budget and I doubt your friend would notice a performance difference (outside of benchmarks) between this machine and anything else that's being thrown around in this thread.

He absolutely would notice a difference if the mechanical HD was chucked out and replaced with a SSD. Based on your build listing, he can afford to drop about $150 on one while staying within budget.

 

[LOL_Wut_Axel]

OP, here's a build:
i5 2400 @ MC $150
ASRock H61M $60 - lack of SATA 6Gb/s could theoretically become an issue, but probably not
G.Skill DDR3 1333 8GB $40 AP
Samsung F3 1TB $60
Samsung DVD Burner $20
Corsair 430CX $35 AR - it's got 28A on the 12V, so you can run a reasonably-powerful midrange GPU from it
Fractal Design Core 1000 $40
Total: $405 AR AP

That's $100 less than your budget and I doubt your friend would notice a performance difference (outside of benchmarks) between this machine and anything else that's being thrown around in this thread.

This seems pretty much perfect, to be honest. The only thing I'd change is the Optical Drive for a Sony Optiarc instead because it's better in terms of noise and read/write speeds. The PSU is fine as well, but there's also the Antec EA-380D or the Xigmatek NRP-PC402 if he wants to pay less upfront and get similar quality. As for the HDD/SSD issue, I think it's a good idea since it's still under budget to get a cheap SSD like a Crucial M4 64GB apart from the Spinpoint F3. It will make the system more responsive all around.