Budget HT setup question

[Agentbolt]

So I'm curious what would happen if I did this. I'm looking at a Sony STR-DG510 receiver (as an admittedly DIRT cheap stopgap) for my new home theater setup. I'm wondering, what's going to happen if I plug a Blu-Ray player of some sort (probably not a PS3) into this receiver?

The unit has 2x HDMI pass-thru inputs, but apparently they only go up to 1080i and don't accept the audio signal. The audio's easy enough, I can just plug in a coaxial or optical audio cable, but what's the receiver going to do with the 1080p signal from my Blu-Ray player?

The unit has an HDMI out that I'll plug into my TV, a 61 inch 1080p Samsung DLP. My hope (from my VERY limited understanding of video equipment) is that the receiver will spit out a 1080i signal through the HDMI out, which goes into my TV, which will then de-interlace the signal and pop a 1080p picture on the screen anyways. Is this correct? Or will it just set on fire or create a rip in the space-time continuum or something?

 

[CalvinHobbes]

Either go directly to the TV with the HDMI or go through the receiver. It should work fine.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I would just plug the video straight from the PS3 to the TV and just run audio to the receiver.

 

[Agentbolt]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
I would just plug the video straight from the PS3 to the TV and just run audio to the receiver.

Oh. Oh! Crap, what was I thinking? You guys are 100% correct. I guess once I saw modern receivers have HDMI inputs I figured I had to use them! Cripes, stupid.

Anyways, so now my visualized setup is this:

XBOX 360:
Video - Component video to component in on HDTV
Audio - Optical Audio to optical audio1 port on receiver

Blu-Ray player:
Video - HDMI video to HDMI1 port on TV
Audio - Coaxial audio to coax audio on receiver

Cox HD STB:
Video - HDMI video to HDMI 2 port on TV
Audio - Optical Audio to optical audio2 port on receiver

My TV only has one 2 HDMI ports on it. This setup should be okay, right? Am I losing anything video or audio wise from any of the 3 components? I suppose now that I think of it, whatever receiver I get won't even need HDMI inputs, will it?

 

[s44]

Yes, you're losing the ability to play the better surround sound codecs, as that Sony has neither HDMI audio in (for either bitstreaming OR accepting a pre-decoded multichannel PCM feed) nor analog 5.1 in (for accepting a pre-decoded-into-analog signal).

I believe the Onkyo 506 (and last year's 505) have analog 5.1 inputs at about the same price or less.

Note: This only matters for Blu-Ray. On the other hand, better surround audio is one of the main advantages of Blu-Ray.

EDIT: The Sony Outlet has the refurb DG720 for $210. This has HDMI audio in (no bitstreaming, but will accept multichannel PCM) and full 1080p pass-through.

 

[Agentbolt]

Originally posted by: s44
Yes, you're losing the ability to play the better surround sound codecs, as that Sony has neither HDMI audio in (for either bitstreaming OR accepting a pre-decoded multichannel PCM feed) nor analog 5.1 in (for accepting a pre-decoded-into-analog signal).

I believe the Onkyo 506 (and last year's 505) have analog 5.1 inputs at about the same price or less.

Note: This only matters for Blu-Ray. On the other hand, better surround audio is one of the main advantages of Blu-Ray.

Am I really going to notice the difference from a better surround sound codec? I'm no audiophile. My current setup is some JVC 100 dollar HTIB setup with the sound from the TV plugging into the red and white RCA jacks (I forget what that's called when it fakes Surround from that. Pro Logic?) and even that sounds okay to me.

Remember, this is a stopgap solution for maybe a year at most. As long as all three sources send 5 recognizable channels at me, I'm happy.

 

[s44]

Well, I believe some Blu-Ray discs don't even have surround tracks with the old codec!

You might as well spend the extra, what, $30? for the DG720.

(Of course, my real advice might be to get the cheapest decent receiver with pre-outs you can find so you can use it as a pre/processor later.)

 

[Agentbolt]

Originally posted by: s44
Well, I believe some Blu-Ray discs don't even have surround tracks with the old codec!

You might as well spend the extra, what, $30? for the DG720.

(Of course, my real advice might be to get the cheapest decent receiver with pre-outs you can find so you can use it as a pre/processor later.)

I'll definitely look at this Onkyo and Sony you've mentioned. Both seem to be 7.1 channel systems, I guess I'd need some new speakers for that as well. I've heard the difference between 5.1 and 7.1 is marginal, but I've never heard a 7.1 system in person either.

Uh, when you say "get one with pre-outs so you can use it as a pre/procesor later" what does that mean? I've only heard the term "pre-out" before as the port you plug the subwoofer into.

Sorry, I'm pretty clueless about this stuff.

 

[s44]

You don't need 7 speakers to use a 7.1 receiver! It just gives you the option if you want to. You can run them 5.1 if you want -- and probably should, for the moment.

By the pre-out thing I mean that what you'll really want as you get fancier isn't necessarily more complicated processing or inputs but pure amplifier power. You can't improve a whole lot on the surround processing electronics or even DACs of your average midrange mass-market surround receiver, but you certainly can improve the signal-to-amplified-sound section. So if you pick a receiver with pre-outs (unamplified analog line outs for every channel, not just the subwoofer one), you can just get a nice multichannel power amp (like this or this) and stick it on top of the receiver (so that the receiver no longer actually powers some or all of the speakers, but sends the signals for those through to the amp) to upgrade.

Edit: So what I'm talking about is a ~$400 receiver instead of a $200 one. Models in this range, with all the bells & whistles (3 HDMI 1.3a inputs, all the sound codecs, video processing up to 1080p), and pre-outs: Onkyo 705/706 (last year's 705 is apparently better than the current 706), Harman-Kardon AVR 254, Pioneer VSX-1018AH-K.

 

[Agentbolt]

Hmm, makes sense. So without pre-out outputs, I'm limited by the wattage of the receiver itself, whereas with pre-outs I can throw a 1000 watt amp on there and make the whole thing louder.

Okay, so let me get this straight. Let's say, for the sake of argument, I bought the STR DG510 receiver. It apparently supports these codecs: "The unit encodes Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby Pro Logic, Dolby Pro Logic II, and Dolby Cinema Sound" I'm not buying this one, but this is just an example.

So let's my Blu-Ray player is, for example, the BD-P1200. Again, just an an example. This thing also doesn't do Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-Master.

So then what happens when I buy a copy of 300 on Blu-Ray? http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies.php?id=451 It only lists TrueHD and PCM as audio options. Does that mean if my receiver and Blu-ray player only do DTS and Dolby Digital, that I won't get any sound? Stereo sound only? What happens? What if the receiver handles that audio codec, but the player doesn't, or vice versa?

 

[s44]

Originally posted by: Agentbolt
Hmm, makes sense. So without pre-out outputs, I'm limited by the wattage of the receiver itself, whereas with pre-outs I can throw a 1000 watt amp on there and make the whole thing louder.

Exactly. Or a 600 watt amp for the front 3 channels (which have most of the load anyway).

On the whole decoding thing.

Well, I own 300. It has plain ol' Dolby Digital 5.1 too.

But if it didn't, then yeah, you'd be stuck with just plain old stereo sound.

(1) If the player can bitstream the format but not decode it, then it depends on if your receiver can decode it.
(2) If the player can decode the format but the receiver can't, then it depends what outputs/inputs your player/receiver have and can handle. If they both have surround (5.1/7.1) analog out/in, you're fine. If they both have/can handle multichannel PCM via HDMI, you're also fine.
(3) If neither player nor receiver can decode the format (and that Samsung sucks because it can neither decode NOR bitstream the new codecs, so your receiver won't be able to decode even if it has the capability), you have to use whatever other audio tracks are on the disc. Whether it's regular DD/DTS, plain old stereo PCM, or whatever. Actually, I think all players can at least decode whatever fancy stuff is on the disc into stereo PCM, but that doesn't help much.

 

[Agentbolt]

Originally posted by: s44

Originally posted by: Agentbolt
Hmm, makes sense. So without pre-out outputs, I'm limited by the wattage of the receiver itself, whereas with pre-outs I can throw a 1000 watt amp on there and make the whole thing louder.

Exactly. Or a 600 watt amp for the front 3 channels (which have most of the load anyway).

On the whole decoding thing.

Well, I own 300. It has plain ol' Dolby Digital 5.1 too.

But if it didn't, then yeah, you'd be stuck with just plain old stereo sound.

(1) If the player can bitstream the format but not decode it, then it depends on if your receiver can decode it.
(2) If the player can decode the format but the receiver can't, then it depends what outputs/inputs your player/receiver have and can handle. If they both have surround (5.1/7.1) analog out/in, you're fine. If they both have/can handle multichannel PCM via HDMI, you're also fine.
(3) If neither player nor receiver can decode the format (and that Samsung sucks because it can neither decode NOR bitstream the new codecs, so your receiver won't be able to decode even if it has the capability), you have to use whatever other audio tracks are on the disc. Whether it's regular DD/DTS, plain old stereo PCM, or whatever. Actually, I think all players can at least decode whatever fancy stuff is on the disc into stereo PCM, but that doesn't help much.

Thanks guys, your replies have all been really helpful. Also, just in case anyone else reading this is curious:

For audio, BD-ROM players are required to support Dolby Digital, DTS, and linear PCM. Players may optionally support Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, as well as lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.[47] BD-ROM titles must use one of the mandatory schemes for the primary soundtrack. A secondary audiotrack, if present, may use any of the mandatory or optional codecs

So anything blu-ray will have either DTS or Dolby Digital, and you'll get your surround sound (assuming your receiver can decode it, and I'm pretty sure anything sold since 1996 or so can). For the extra 30 or so bucks though, you're right, might as well get the better ones

 

[s44]

Originally posted by: Agentbolt

For audio, BD-ROM players are required to support Dolby Digital, DTS, and linear PCM. Players may optionally support Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, as well as lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.[47] BD-ROM titles must use one of the mandatory schemes for the primary soundtrack. A secondary audiotrack, if present, may use any of the mandatory or optional codecs

So anything blu-ray will have either DTS or Dolby Digital, and you'll get your surround sound

Unless the one mandatory format it supports is two-channel (stereo) PCM!

 

[Agentbolt]

Originally posted by: s44

Originally posted by: Agentbolt

For audio, BD-ROM players are required to support Dolby Digital, DTS, and linear PCM. Players may optionally support Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio, as well as lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio.[47] BD-ROM titles must use one of the mandatory schemes for the primary soundtrack. A secondary audiotrack, if present, may use any of the mandatory or optional codecs

So anything blu-ray will have either DTS or Dolby Digital, and you'll get your surround sound

Unless the one mandatory format it supports is two-channel (stereo) PCM!

Oh, is that what linear PCM means? Whoopsie.

Anyways, what I ended up deciding on is an older Yamaha or Pioneer receiver. It won't have HDMI, but per my post above, it doesn't look like I actually need HDMI on the receiver. As long as the receiver I'm getting has 2 optical in and an analog 5.1 in, I'm all set. So now it'll be:

XBOX 360:
Video - Component video to component in on HDTV
Audio - Optical Audio to optical audio1 port on receiver

Blu-Ray player:
Video - HDMI video to HDMI1 port on TV
Audio - Analog 5.1 out to Analog 5.1 in on Receiver

Cox HD STB:
Video - HDMI video to HDMI 2 port on TV
Audio - Optical Audio to optical audio2 port on receiver

From what I can tell, this will again result in no loss of Video (my TV takes 1080p over component just fine) or Audio quality/options. The analog input on the receiver should accept whatever fancy audio codec my blu-ray player spits out, right?

I do lose pre-outs most likely, but this 230 dollar receiver is now becoming literally a 100 dollar used receiver. I can use that extra 150 bucks or so to upgrade the center channel speakers and such. And then of course someday get a "real" receiver that's upgradeable to a better extent.

 

[Tbirdkid]

pick up a decent hdmi switch, and run it straight to the tv.

 

[Agentbolt]

Huh. I didn't know they made HDMI switches. I guess I can avoid going component on my Xbox360 now, that'll be good.

Incidentally, I picked up a receiver. It's a Yamaha HTR 5230. Sorry S44, I'm sure you're doing a spit take or throwing something at the wall after I admitted that, but it looks like it's actually going to do everything I want it to. And if not? It was 50 bucks

 

[s44]

Naah, a $50 temporary solution is good. A $200 one would be a waste.

 

[Agentbolt]

Originally posted by: s44
Naah, a $50 temporary solution is good. A $200 one would be a waste.

So you approve, then? It's roughly 8 years old and obviously doesn't have HDMI or decode basically anything, but it has analog 5.1 inputs and sounded really good when I checked it out. With some good speakers and a good decoding Blu-Ray player, my research and you guys' help seems to indicate it'll play everything the way it was meant to be played (STB and Xbox 360 over optical, and Blu-Ray over analog out) sound wise.