BTX, PCI-Express... new everything

Davegod

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Nov 26, 2001
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Great news for producers, crap news for us. Sometime next year your upgrade will require a 100% new PC. Well OK not quite, but not far off - your ram and peripherals will probably be OK, maybe hard drive - probably if you have a SATA one. The case fans will probably be ok too, though they might read this and correct their forgetfullness.

OK so everyone expects they'll need to buy a new motherboard for the latest CPU's next year, maybe unless you have an Opteron.

But, invested in a quality case? quality PSU? Going to need new ones when BTX (Balanced Technology Extended) comes along.

Uber expensive graphics card sitting in your machine? Oops, its not going to fit in PCI-Express. I dont even have a clue if any normal PCI devices are going to fit - but I'm assuming not.

Even looking at pics of Athlon64 motherboards, expensive bolt-on socket A heatsinks likely wont have a chance of fitting.


Well OK, so ill-informed scaremongering over, the above is the impression I get from things I've read since PCI-Express and BTX started getting mentioned. I have no clue how it affects servers or whatever, frankly I dont care, only interested in desktops, particularily mine.

Any good info sources, or opinions on these? What's the thoughts about having to replace practically everything in your PC next time round? Thinking of delaying that upgrade now, or scaling back from the high end options? Sceptical the new standards are just new money-making standards? Most importantly of course, is it worth me buying that expensive 9800pro/TX when the damn thing wont fit my new system a year from now?


quick info on PCI-Express, more detail.
also note Graphics for PCI Express to pose real cooling problems.

Cant find much on BTX, I think its not announced fully yet :/ IIRC there's a pic of what I assume is a BTX mobo in the anandtech PCI-Express article (at first I thought the image had been flipped). There is a snippet at the bottom of inq - about a dozen other places seem to know/say the same and no more.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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The sky is falling, the sky is falling.
You know you can still get mobos with ISA slots, right?
It will be no worse than it has been the past few years, having to get new NICs, soundcards, video cards, motherboards, CPU, RAM...
 

AdmiralTiger

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Feb 17, 2003
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PCI Express isn't backward compatible with PCI cards.

Socket A heatsinks AREN"T designed for Athlon 64's and you won't be able to fit one on it - you need an K8 heatsink/fan combo to make it fit on the board - there will be a retention clip on the board (at least on some boards anyway) that will accomodate heavier heatsinks.

The hardware changes I knew about months ago... I was actually waiting for PCI-Express to come out so I could make my next gfx purchase by then. There's a few things that popped up as of late that I learned from a hardware guru on an IRC network: There will be a 15-channel sound card coming out sometimes in 2Q 2004, it will be Azalia-based (don't ask me, I don't know much about Azalia) but I can tell you this, it'll be much better than current 6-channel (or 8 now?) standard for motherboards. and I believe it'll be PCI-Express compatible (most likely 1x)

SATA II is supposed to take off in Q3-Q4 2004.. I think. I'm just speaking out loud on this as I don't want to browse through the web all over again for the information on this. SATA II Specifications will put the bandwith of the bus from 150 MB/s to 300 MB/s/.

I think it's great that we'll have the opportunity to be able to use a completely different hardware standards - but of course it'll be a lot harder for Joe Consumer to be able to absorb the technology that comes out with it. Oh yeah, now I remember what I wanted to look at earlier: EFI, or short for Extensible Firmware Interface, the ad hoc replacement for BIOS (and also the death of floppy drives) - I believe that now there's a rumor (well not exactly) about BTX standards, it looks like EFI will be implemented on BTX boards - and that will spell doom for the floppy and I say it's about damn time. As for the BTX, it is actually my first time of hearing about this new standard for hardware.. I wonder how much of a positive change the new standard can do over the old one... I was getting used to using the ATX form factor. :-/

As for your gfx dileema - I say wait for the PCI-express cards to come out before making a high-end card purchase. Just IMO.
 

Davegod

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Nov 26, 2001
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Originally posted by: Cerb
It will be no worse than it has been the past few years, having to get new NICs, soundcards, video cards, motherboards, CPU, RAM...
New NIC only required when going from ISA to PCI, and then NICS rapidly became standard fare on motherboards anyway, plus theyre not exactly a $400 graphics card. Graphics cards, theyve worked since PCI to AGP switch, and even then you could still put it in the PCI slots!

Motherboards, cpu and, to a less extent ram, is what people intend to upgrade anyway - either those 3 or the graphics card being a significant upgrade. Or both, although these people are less affected. I dont think people expect to have to replace their case and psu very often though.

dunno why you bother with the sky is falling crap, there's no big whine rant just a discussion peice. dont like it then dont read my thread k?
 

AndyHui

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Oct 9, 1999
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As you can see from towards the end of my article, there are a number of diagrams where PCI and PCI Express will co-exist.

As far as the BigWater form factor is concerned, it's mounted on the other side of the case, that's why the board looks like it's been flipped.

We'll see.
 

AdmiralTiger

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Feb 17, 2003
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Originally posted by: AndyHui
As you can see from towards the end of my article, there are a number of diagrams where PCI and PCI Express will co-exist.

As far as the BigWater form factor is concerned, it's mounted on the other side of the case, that's why the board looks like it's been flipped.

We'll see.

I was led to believe that legacy PCI cards can work on PCI-X as it's backward compatible and not PCI-Express... my mistake. Thanks.

As for the BTX (or aka BigWater form factor as you'd call it) - you mean it will be placed on the other side of the case, i.e. on the left side of the case and not the right? (hey, Im just saying it from the perspective of the front of the case.. unless it's been switched around to the top :-D) If you have any links or info about this BTX thing, drop them pls - I need to gather as many information about it as I can so I don't have to ask questions about it later :D
 

Davegod

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Nov 26, 2001
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fifteen channel sound? they dont really expect people to go pickup a set of 15 speakers do they? :confused:

tbh a lot of the new stuff looks proper good. proper hsf mountings for amd, about bloody time. EFI sounds good too, the whole BIOS concept somehow seems unfitting these days, even if it has become that much easier since the ridiculousness of my first build. Its just going to be expensive and I think a lot of people are going to be caught out with fairly recently purchased hardware that no longer fits. Still cant comprahend why they need to mess with case designs, and PSU changes seem to be for the hell of it.

as it happens I've been delaying graphics card upgrade for ages because there wasnt anything worth bothering to do it for until HL2, Halo and D3 which were expected this quarter back then. PCI-Express etc seems to be another good 6 months away? I guess i'll end up going for the 9800 and later grab the fastest cpu i can go with for AGP and see how long I can hold off for.
 

AdmiralTiger

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ROFL Anand - you actually scare me sometimes - I was looking and looking for it frantically on google for the last 10 minutes and I decided to refresh the page, and YOU spoke... you could've saved me some time! OH wait, you just did. :D Thanks very much. :beer:
 

AndyHui

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I think you need to take into account that the vast majority of the market purchases an entire new system rather than upgrading it, so major changes like these are not going to hurt most regular consumers.
 

AdmiralTiger

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Originally posted by: AndyHui
I think you need to take into account that the vast majority of the market purchases an entire new system rather than upgrading it, so major changes like these are not going to hurt most regular consumers.

Yeah, you sure do have a point there, but it'll be somewhat harder for a regular customer to convert to a new standard... in a sense. For most of us enthusiasts, it would be much easier for us to jump into the new form factor bandwagon. I have a feeling all those new technologies won't come all at the same time, but within a timespan of several months, perhaps a year. It'll be a gradual transition to the new form, and of course a regular customer will never really know about it until the next time they shop around for a new PC.
 

AdmiralTiger

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Originally posted by: oldfart
Will we finally have graphic cards that are not "upside down" like AGP cards are now?
I think you're talking about the card having the core/small hs/fan facing the bottom of the case instead of the top of the case - if that's the case (no pun intended) - I doubt it. However, we'll have to see what happens.
 

Budman

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Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: oldfart
Will we finally have graphic cards that are not "upside down" like AGP cards are now?

Wouldnt that just mean more heat towards the cpu?

I think they should keep in upside down.
 

Cerb

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Aug 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: Davegod
Originally posted by: Cerb
It will be no worse than it has been the past few years, having to get new NICs, soundcards, video cards, motherboards, CPU, RAM...
New NIC only required when going from ISA to PCI, and then NICS rapidly became standard fare on motherboards anyway,
...you forgot going from 10Mb to 100Mb, only to get replaced by the next mobo upgrade. Gb being offered, even if only on high-end, mobos, is VERY nice.
plus theyre not exactly a $400 graphics card. Graphics cards, theyve worked since PCI to AGP switch, and even then you could still put it in the PCI slots!
You're right, it's not. The most expensive video card I've ever had was my Voodoo2 at $209. If it doesn't say All-in-Wonder, I won't spend that kind of money on video.
Motherboards, cpu and, to a less extent ram, is what people intend to upgrade anyway - either those 3 or the graphics card being a significant upgrade. Or both, although these people are less affected. I dont think people expect to have to replace their case and psu very often though.
...that's why a few of us learned about AMD approved PSUs the hard way.
dunno why you bother with the sky is falling crap, there's no big whine rant just a discussion peice. dont like it then dont read my thread k?
You just make it sound like it is going to be some great big thing...really, it isn't. It's just the normal thing that we've been going through since I can remember...from my 386 SX on up.
My comment about ISA was to note this:
You can get ISA slots if you want them.
It wasn't even until the socket 478 P4s that ISA went completely under (it was still common to have a lone ISA slot at the bottom through the early socket Athlon boards).
PCI and AGP aren't just going to die. There is going to be a nice transition. In fact, server boards are going to be the only ones where it'll be a pain, since then you actually find uses for what are extra slots on home machines. For the first year or so, PCI Express slots will go unused, much like AGP did, except for the real cash spenders buying high-end PCs.

I'd be willing to bet that it will be a very simple, smooth transition. While certain things may get in the way, by the time things don't fit and you can't find good drivers, the "new" replacement parts are pretty cheap, or integrated into new mobos.
 

Cerb

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Originally posted by: Budman
It wasn't even until the socket 478 P4s that ISA went completely under (it was still common to have a lone ISA slot at the bottom through the early socket Athlon boards).


Here's a P4 mobo with ISA slots ----> http://www.soyousa.com/commerce/proddesc.php?id=194


And an other. ----> http://www.ibase-i.com.tw/mb800.htm


;)
...hence mentioning that you can still get one. Amazing, isn't it? I'd love to know what people actually need them for.

 

HokieESM

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Jun 10, 2002
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Originally posted by: Cerb
Originally posted by: Budman
It wasn't even until the socket 478 P4s that ISA went completely under (it was still common to have a lone ISA slot at the bottom through the early socket Athlon boards).


Here's a P4 mobo with ISA slots ----> http://www.soyousa.com/commerce/proddesc.php?id=194


And an other. ----> http://www.ibase-i.com.tw/mb800.htm


;)
...hence mentioning that you can still get one. Amazing, isn't it? I'd love to know what people actually need them for.


Its MUCH easier to make an in-house ISA card than a PCI one. What would you use this for? Controller for custom equipment.... sensor monitoring.... both on the same card, even. Its mostly for the instrumentation crowd--usually in research areas, because if you need a custom card (a one-off)... you're probably doing research.

But note that ISA-equipped P4 motherboards aren't common. :) Its not like you can call up Newegg and have 15 choices. :)

 

AndyHui

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Originally posted by: AdmiralTiger
Originally posted by: AndyHui
I think you need to take into account that the vast majority of the market purchases an entire new system rather than upgrading it, so major changes like these are not going to hurt most regular consumers.

Yeah, you sure do have a point there, but it'll be somewhat harder for a regular customer to convert to a new standard... in a sense. For most of us enthusiasts, it would be much easier for us to jump into the new form factor bandwagon. I have a feeling all those new technologies won't come all at the same time, but within a timespan of several months, perhaps a year. It'll be a gradual transition to the new form, and of course a regular customer will never really know about it until the next time they shop around for a new PC.
I would still argue that the impact to the Regular Joe would be minimal. Most have no idea what is going on inside their computer when they purchase. All they look for is processor speed, RAM, hard disk size, whether or not it has a DVD drive or CDRW, if it has a network card and if it has sound. On the face of answering these questions, NONE of them are affected by whether your system is based around PCI Express or the motherboard/case form factor.

 

Davegod

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Nov 26, 2001
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Originally posted by: Cerb
You just make it sound like it is going to be some great big thing...
originally posted by: me, in the first post
Well OK, so ill-informed scaremongering over,
[...]
Any good info sources, or opinions on these?
;)

fwiw, I've not seen anything suggesting a "smooth transition" yet, only thing I've seen -- and feel free to point to the other info seeing as that was the whole point anyway-- to suggest this would be historically this has happened - but the articles linked suggest to me that PCI will be 100% incompatible with PCI-Express, so having both doesnt make too much sense. As originally started, its a thread for discussion and to find out this sort of info, so yoru harping isnt exactly appropriate or necessary. Oh look, AndyHui basically said the same thing about PCI+PCI-Express co-existing, but actually did it in way that is useful, so I'm re-reading the article. [edit: I'm saying PCI but I'm more interested and probably thinking more, for my current buying decison, about an AGP slot being available for my possible new card]
 

Davegod

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I would also agree, in my hardly any sort of expert way, that joe consumer would be least affected. They tend to buy whole systems and do it in frequently anyway, so pretty much everything needs upgraded anyway - even those who have become techy enough to make their first self build probably only keep case, monitor and maybe mouse/keyboard.

Confusion about AGP etc for those who have read a guide in some year-old PC mag can be sorted reasonably easily.

But still I think the self build / upgrade segment is pretty large, and especially around here :p Hasnt been much discussion on PCI-Express (a couple of threads in gen) and almost nothing on BTX, yet lots of people buying expensive hardware that might unexpectedly be redundant form their next setup. How often do you see threads where people pay a lot for a case because they expect to have it for their next n systems, or go buy a 480w psu. I'd hazard a complete guess that 50% people on AT forums upgrade vid card seperately from mobo/cpu.

Naturally pretty much the whole thing is inevitable anyway, but its a lot better if people are fully aware when making $$$ decisions :)
 

skace

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Jan 23, 2001
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new everything is good. for reasons already stated. You want to upgrade your current pc? upgrade it. You want a real nice new pc? buy new parts. Options for everyone. I want new stuff as I can afford it.
 

Cerb

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Originally posted by: Davegod
I would also agree, in my hardly any sort of expert way, that joe consumer would be least affected. They tend to buy whole systems and do it in frequently anyway, so pretty much everything needs upgraded anyway - even those who have become techy enough to make their first self build probably only keep case, monitor and maybe mouse/keyboard.

Confusion about AGP etc for those who have read a guide in some year-old PC mag can be sorted reasonably easily.

But still I think the self build / upgrade segment is pretty large, and especially around here :p Hasnt been much discussion on PCI-Express (a couple of threads in gen) and almost nothing on BTX, yet lots of people buying expensive hardware that might unexpectedly be redundant form their next setup. How often do you see threads where people pay a lot for a case because they expect to have it for their next n systems, or go buy a 480w psu. I'd hazard a complete guess that 50% people on AT forums upgrade vid card seperately from mobo/cpu.

Naturally pretty much the whole thing is inevitable anyway, but its a lot better if people are fully aware when making $$$ decisions :)
My upgrades:
K6-2 350: needed PCI. Had Awe32, 10Mb NIC, Voodoo2, S3 Virge, and external 28.8 modem.
Duron 800@1000: AGP. 10Mb NIC, cheap Yahama soundcard and GF2 GTS.
Athlon 1800+: Had good excuse to upgrade. NIC and GF4 Ti 4200 for cards. When I upgrade next it will be an Audigy 2 and GF4 Ti 4200 (or, if enough $$$ comes my way, Radeon 9x00).

If I need AGP 8x or PCI Express, I'll make a partial upgrade to get them. A new form factor will involve the same thing (mainly a mobo upgrade in both cases). If you stay a bit behind the curve (maybe 6 months), it's no big deal--you know well ahead of time what you're getting into and what the good parts to buy are. Caution and patience.

If you're sticking with new things, you're either risking being left with little or no upgrade path (which means near nothing to the average consumer), or you stay w/ branded machines and don't worry about it (you're making the informed decision to buy something like an average consumer).