Brokaw says Hispanics should try harder to assimilate

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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
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Oh fuck no. That's not how this works.
Sure it is. There's no evidence either way, which means making either argument is opinion. I certainly don't support a reasoned argument that they are assimilating any slower. Would be anecdotal at best.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,083
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Zero evidence? Call any corporate 1-800 number and tell me where I can press 3 for Mandarin, German, or French

There is OBVIOUS catering to the hispanic community. There are plenty of roads I drive down where the billboards start to all be in spanish. I'm not exactly old to remember mass migration from Europe, but not once have I seen those types of things for other languages. I've never seen a German go into a Walmart and demand an associate that speaks German. I've never seen a cell-phone company send me an advertisement with English on one side and French on the other. But again, that might just be my bias to my area - has anyone else seen it to that scale of another language in the US?

Look at the historical photo archives of any city's ethic archives. Christ just wander down to the nearest Chinatown.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Look at the historical photo archives of any city's ethic archives. Christ just wander down to the nearest Chinatown.

I've been to plenty of Chinatowns... They have typical restaurants and stores that you would expect. Plenty will speak their native tongue since they are (after all) in Chinatown

However, I've never seen a Chinese person go to a Walmart and demand that someone speak Mandarin with them.... I have definitely seen hispanics do that.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,083
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Sure it is. There's no evidence either way, which means making either argument is opinion. I certainly don't support a reasoned argument that they are assimilating any slower. Would be anecdotal at best.

The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If somebody wants to dig up some empirical evidcene that hispanics are assimilating more slowly than their historical European counterparts I'll look at it. I already said I'm aware of no such evidence and in it's absence I'm not willing to concede that the original assertion is probable.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. If somebody wants to dig up some empirical evidcene that hispanics are assimilating more slowly than their historical European counterparts I'll look at it. I already said I'm aware of no such evidence and in it's absence I'm not willing to concede that the original assertion is probable.

Here, let me google that for you:

https://www.usnews.com/news/national/articles/2008/05/15/mexican-immigrants-prove-slow-to-fit-in
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,083
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I've been to plenty of Chinatowns... They have typical restaurants and stores that you would expect. Plenty will speak their native tongue since they are (after all) in Chinatown

However, I've never seen a Chinese person go to a Walmart and demand that someone speak Mandarin with them.... I have definitely seen hispanics do that.

This is an odd example since during a few years in SF I've actually seen this exact thing happen at a Target. The store found an employee who spoke it for them to interact with.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
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While I do agree with your premise, things are a little different now. There was much less of an option not to assimilate m in a country that did not have the safety net and technology that currently exists.

Also a little tough to talk evidence.. Do you have any evidence that Hispanics are not behind the curve of our European ancestors? Shrug.

Bullshit. The last bit about proving a negative confirms it.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
48,083
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That does not address the assimilation rate of past immigrant groups in the slightest. It does, however, point out that assimilation is more difficult for people who lack legal immigrant status. It seems to me that we could fix that if we want them to integrate faster.

Additionally there is no evidence I know of that their language assimilation (which some people appear real concerned about) is actually slow by any standard. Even CATO says that's not the case:

Indeed, the story on language should also calm fears about a lack of assimilation. While Spanish has grown dramatically as a second language in the United States, there is no evidence that Mexican immigrants and their families are failing to learn English. With English advancing as the global language of business, transportation, science, pop culture and cyberspace, much to the consternation of the French, I might add, it seems implausible that a subgroup within the United States could insulate itself for long from the language of the realm. In fact, America has historically been considered a “language graveyard” because of an almost irresistible incentive for immigrants, and especially their children, to learn English. Hispanic immigrants are no exception.

Recent studies confirm that the children of Spanish-speaking immigrants are learning English. Among children of Hispanic immigrants to the United States, one recent study found that 92 percent speak English well or very well, even though 85 percent speak at least some Spanish at home. Among third-generation Hispanic immigrants (and their descendants), the predominant pattern is “English-only,” with no Spanish spoken at home.14 And that trend has actually been accelerating. As the authors of a recent study concluded, “The very high immigration level of the 1990s does not appear to have weakened the forces of linguistic assimilation. Mexicans, by far the largest immigrants group, provide a compelling example. In 1990, 64 percent of third-generation Mexican-American children spoke only English at home; in 2000, the equivalent figure had risen to 71 percent.”15

https://www.cato.org/publications/speeches/mexican-migration-legalization-assimilation
 
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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
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Do people read anymore?
That's a really invalid logical argument though, right? Massively different time and place, not to mention what data will you have from that time? I'm sure there are content expert historians, and I think it would be interesting to hear their opinions, my simple point in this thread is that it's a fairly silly argument on both sides without any actual data.. So why argue it?
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
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That's a really invalid logical argument though, right? Massively different time and place, not to mention what data will you have from that time? I'm sure there are content expert historians, and I think it would be interesting to hear their opinions, my simple point in this thread is that it's a fairly silly argument on both sides without any actual data.. So why argue it?

Why? The only historical precedents, in terms of scale, for the hispanic immigration we have seen are the flows from Europe.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
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Confirms that it's bullshit. Social services don't make it easier to not learn the language. You merely suppose that to be true.
Why do they not? Do you have a lot of experience with non English speakers and social services? Something tells me no...
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
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Why? The only historical precedents, in terms of scale, for the hispanic immigration we have seen are the flows from Europe.
Oh I think it's fine to compare with regard to massive influxes of people in generalities, but we simply don't have any real data to inform the specific argument of "xxx assimilated quicker than yyy."

We can definitely discuss anecdotal evidence, I know I've got a fair bit on both sides.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
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Assimilation is an intergenerational process and there is zero evidence I'm aware of that hispanics are somehow behind the curve of my long dead European ancestors. Most of America is far too removed from their family histories to comprehend that.

Instead I think something of a nativist bias gets exposed with comments like his that actually cuts across political and partisan lines. This should be examined with a bit more critical eye.

Yeah, I can't speak specifically to Hispanics vs other immigrant cultures like Brokaw did. No idea where he's getting that from.

I just know it's a challenge for all immigrants coming in, esp if they don't have a strong background in English. It definitely limits your employment and social opportunities.

I've also read some work associating immigration with increased rates of depression due to anxiety, social isolation and loneliness.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Why do they not? Do you have a lot of experience with non English speakers and social services? Something tells me no...

It's your assertion that social services inhibit integration. You have not provided a shred of evidence to back it up.

If anything, the opposite is true-

https://www.voanews.com/a/us-govern...-classes-for-immigrants-103737714/162985.html

State & local govts offer a variety of programs as well. Such things apparently didn't exist 100 years ago.
 

TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
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It's your assertion that social services inhibit integration. You have not provided a shred of evidence to back it up.

If anything, the opposite is true-

https://www.voanews.com/a/us-govern...-classes-for-immigrants-103737714/162985.html

State & local govts offer a variety of programs as well. Such things apparently didn't exist 100 years ago.
A 9 year old article from VOA News is your source? You certainly may be right, but that article doesn't prove it. I was simply saying I could understand how it may inhibit.

I work with immigrants every day of work, I've put in place social disparity programs particularly for immigrants, I lobbied for and fortunately got funding for a Spanish speaking social worker. I spend a portion of my day every day helping people get government benefits who have been here for years and not learned the language because I think it's important. Personally, I don't care if some of them ever learn the language. Certainly, though, this could possibly inhibit assimilation (my hope and personal is that it does exactly the opposite).

I just want to be clear on what is an opinion and what isn't. I can certainly see both sides, I would love to see some real data on it. I think it's intellectually dishonest to argue as fervently as some have here.
 
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JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
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the idea that people just need to act like milk toaste white bread people and they would be accepted is shit.
 

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
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I've been to plenty of Chinatowns... They have typical restaurants and stores that you would expect. Plenty will speak their native tongue since they are (after all) in Chinatown

However, I've never seen a Chinese person go to a Walmart and demand that someone speak Mandarin with them.... I have definitely seen hispanics do that.


So this is something you regularly encounter? In real life? Where the eff do you live?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Texas - and yes, I've seen it plenty of times.

So what? A Walmart manager in Texas or anywhere in the southwest would have to be daft to not have bilingual staff avail for customer service.

That's just reality. Deal with it.
 

zzyzxroad

Diamond Member
Jan 29, 2017
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Texas - and yes, I've seen it plenty of times.

Odd… I would think a community with Hispanic people emboldened enough to go demand someone speak to them in Spanish would employ an ample amount of Spanish speakers. You don’t huff paint right? Just looking for root cause.