British cops get in trouble for murdering Brazilian

tomywishbone

Golden Member
Oct 24, 2006
1,401
0
0
It took time and nobody is going to jail, but the final verdict is clear... the cops mudered an innocent Brazilian electrician.

British shooting

UK police guilty in Brazilian's death By D'ARCY DORAN, Associated Press Writer, Thu Nov 1, 8:06 PM ET.

LONDON - London's police force was found guilty Thursday of endangering the public during a frantic manhunt for four failed suicide bombers that led to the killing of an innocent Brazilian man on a subway train.

Police had staked out an address belonging to two of the failed bombers at dawn on July 22, 2005. It was less than 24 hours after the attackers' devices failed to ignite on three subway cars and a double-decker bus. Police feared they were set on trying to strike again.

The manhunt unfolded with the British capital already on edge after four suicide bombers killed 52 commuters two weeks earlier.

The officers watching the building trailed Brazilian electrician Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, out of the apartments, suspecting he was one of the bombers. They followed him onto two buses, into a subway station and finally into a train. There, officers, believing he was a bomber, shot him seven times at close range in front of morning commuters.

On Thursday, a jury found police guilty of breaking health and safety laws. Judge Richard Henriques ordered the Metropolitan Police to pay a total of $1.16 million for breakdowns in the operation.

"One person died and many others were placed in potential danger," Henriques said after the verdict.

The judge acknowledged the manhunt had been "a unique and difficult operation."

"This was very much an isolated breach brought about by quite extraordinary circumstances," he said.

The force had denied the charge, saying the killing was an error, not a crime. Outside London's Central Criminal Court, police chief Ian Blair expressed "my deep regret" over de Menezes' death.

"No police officer set out on that day to shoot an innocent man," he said. "I am certain that this death was the culmination of actions by many hands, all of whom were doing their best to handle a terrible threat facing London on that day ? a race against time to find the failed suicide bombers of the day before."

Blair said he had no intention of resigning after the verdict. Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he had "full confidence" in the police chief, despite opposition calls for Blair to step down.

Blair did not rule out an appeal.

The Brazilian Foreign Ministry issued a statement saying the government doesn't consider that the decision closes the case.

"Although without specifying the individuals responsible for the tragedy, the decision recognizes the responsibility of the Metropolitan Police in the case and opens the way for new initiatives in favor of the family of that innocent Brazilian citizen," the statement said.

No individual officers were charged over de Menezes' death. The foreman of the jury told the court that blame should not rest with Deputy Assistant Commissioner Cressida Dick, the officer in charge of the operation.

Prosecutors claimed "fundamental failures" at all levels led to the death of de Menezes.

Police thought the Brazilian might have been Hussain Osman, who dropped his gym membership card at the scene of one of the failed attacks. An officer who was meant to identify him as he came out was away "relieving himself," prosecutor Clare Montgomery told the court.

The surveillance officers asked the Scotland Yard control room several times if they should arrest him, but were told to wait for a firearms team to arrive, Montgomery said.

She described the chaos at police headquarters, claiming an officer responsible for listening to messages could not hear what was being said because colleagues not involved in the case crammed into the room to listen to events unfold.

Despite officers' doubts about his identity, Dick testified she was told five times that the man police were following was Osman.

An officer called out on the radio that the man being pursued was "our man" and was acting "nervous and twitchy," a firearms officer testified.

The marksmen could be seen running down the subway station's escalator in security video footage shown to jurors.

A surveillance officer, identified as "Ivor," described following de Menezes into the subway car, grabbing him and pinning him to his seat when he realized firearms officers were there. He shouted: "Here he is."

The armed officers shot de Menezes five times in the head, once in the neck and once in the shoulder. The jury was shown photos of de Menezes lying dead on the car's floor.

Police lawyer Ronald Thwaites told the jury that de Menezes was shot because he had behaved suspiciously and "because when he was challenged by police he did not comply with them but reacted precisely as they had been briefed a suicide bomber might react at the point of detonating his bomb."

(This version CORRECTS AMs. SUBS 5th graf, `On Thursday ...' to correct fine to $1.16 million sted $2.1 milllion)



 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
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This is the result of advances of the ideals of the far-right. The lives of foreigners are not worth much in the EU.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is the result of advances of the ideals of the far-right. The lives of foreigners are not worth much in the EU.
What a bunch of crap.

The cops thought the guy was about the blow himself up taking them with him.
I suspect that many of us would have done the same thing in their shoes.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is the result of advances of the ideals of the far-right. The lives of foreigners are not worth much in the EU.
What a bunch of crap.

The cops thought the guy was about the blow himself up taking them with him.
I suspect that many of us would have done the same thing in their shoes.

Guilty on sight, execution without trial. That is the EU way.

The police officers involved should be charged with murder. It was a completely bungled operation. Children would have been more competent.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is the result of advances of the ideals of the far-right. The lives of foreigners are not worth much in the EU.
What a bunch of crap.

The cops thought the guy was about the blow himself up taking them with him.
I suspect that many of us would have done the same thing in their shoes.
Yeah, I kill people all the time because I suspect they are going to blow themselves up. Doesn't everyone?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: maddogchen
so a guy pins him down, then they shoot him?

They mistook a White/Hispanic guy as an Ethiopian, pinned him down, and executed him on the spot. Cover-up followed.
 

beyoku

Golden Member
Aug 20, 2003
1,568
1
71
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: maddogchen
so a guy pins him down, then they shoot him?

They mistook a White/Hispanic guy as an Ethiopian, pinned him down, and executed him on the spot. Cover-up followed.

Wow, how can you mistake a White/Hispanic guy for an Ethiopian?
And last time i checked Ethiopians were not blowing themselves up. :confused:
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is the result of advances of the ideals of the far-right. The lives of foreigners are not worth much in the EU.
What a bunch of crap.

The cops thought the guy was about the blow himself up taking them with him.
I suspect that many of us would have done the same thing in their shoes.
Yeah, I kill people all the time because I suspect they are going to blow themselves up. Doesn't everyone?
I think "all the time" is just exaggerating for effect. I do it no more than every 1-2 years. :)
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is the result of advances of the ideals of the far-right. The lives of foreigners are not worth much in the EU.
What a bunch of crap.

The cops thought the guy was about the blow himself up taking them with him.
I suspect that many of us would have done the same thing in their shoes.

That's the worst argument in the history of all the crappy arguments you've made on P&N. The cops aren't SUPPOSED to react like "many of us", they are supposed to exercise restraint and protect the public without turning into trigger happy lunatics. The fact that YOU would do what they did is an iron-clad argument AGAINST those actions being OK. You are not a police officer, I don't think it's a very good idea for the police to act like the average Joe in any situation.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is the result of advances of the ideals of the far-right. The lives of foreigners are not worth much in the EU.
What a bunch of crap.

The cops thought the guy was about the blow himself up taking them with him.
I suspect that many of us would have done the same thing in their shoes.

That's the worst argument in the history of all the crappy arguments you've made on P&N. The cops aren't SUPPOSED to react like "many of us", they are supposed to exercise restraint and protect the public without turning into trigger happy lunatics. The fact that YOU would do what they did is an iron-clad argument AGAINST those actions being OK. You are not a police officer, I don't think it's a very good idea for the police to act like the average Joe in any situation.

What?

They weren't "acting like an average Joe". They weren't even acting like regular British police - who don't carry firearms, BTW.

Sounds like they were a special assembled response team specifically for terrorism threats. A combination of unfortunate circumstances, errors and a foolish response to police commands by the victim resulted in a tragedy. Some time these things happen, it has before and it will again.. If you know to prevent such things, while at the same safeguarding the public from such bombers, please do send them the memo.

Fern
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: KIRBYEE
Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Guilty on sight, execution without trial. That is the EU way.

I'd rather be executed than rot in a concentration camp for years without trial. ;)
There's a lot of irony in what you're saying btw.

Please enlighten me on the irony.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
This is the result of advances of the ideals of the far-right. The lives of foreigners are not worth much in the EU.
What a bunch of crap.

The cops thought the guy was about the blow himself up taking them with him.
I suspect that many of us would have done the same thing in their shoes.

That's the worst argument in the history of all the crappy arguments you've made on P&N. The cops aren't SUPPOSED to react like "many of us", they are supposed to exercise restraint and protect the public without turning into trigger happy lunatics. The fact that YOU would do what they did is an iron-clad argument AGAINST those actions being OK. You are not a police officer, I don't think it's a very good idea for the police to act like the average Joe in any situation.

What?

They weren't "acting like an average Joe". They weren't even acting like regular British police - who don't carry firearms, BTW.

Sounds like they were a special assembled response team specifically for terrorism threats. A combination of unfortunate circumstances, errors and a foolish response to police commands by the victim resulted in a tragedy. Some time these things happen, it has before and it will again.. If you know to prevent such things, while at the same safeguarding the public from such bombers, please do send them the memo.

Fern

Well actually I was responding to ProfJohn, who seemed to be arguing that the cops did indeed act like an average Joe would.

As for how professionaly they reacted, let's add up their tally here. How many bombings have overreactions like this prevented? I'm betting the number is zero. On the other hand, we have this dead guy who did nothing worse than not exercise the best judgement in the world. Given the ratio of stupid people to actual bombers, I'd say overzealous cops are way more likely to kill more random Brazilians than stop any terrorists. The trade-off we make should keep that in mind, because a system where the cops are a bigger threat to your life than the terrorists they are trying to stop is not a good one.

There are no perfect solutions, but ANY solution should bear in mind that terrorists are extremely rare. Yet our policy, both as applied to the public as a whole, and police in particular, seems to make the unspoken assumption that anyone doing anything hinkey at all is probably a terrorist and you should react as if he was. That is the driving factor being incidents like this. I suggest that a rational observer, not caught up in the terrorism frenzy, would NOT have thought the police acted correctly. Sure, the guy was acting a little weird, but the first thing that pops into your mind should not be "he's a terrorist", particularly if your job is to protect the public. That's what my "memo" would say.