Britain and the US did everything to avoid a peaceful solution in Iraq and Afghanistan

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chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
Cad:

Uh, I don't think the argument has much heft when on the one hand you are recognizing the legitimacy of the U.N. and it's hegemony over Iraq and on the other hand ignoring it. Last time I checked, this was called hypocrisy. Furthermore, I haven't even mentioned the obvious insult to the U.N.'s charter when the U.S. marched into Iraq in contravention of the wishes of the U.N. So, yes, I think hypocrisy has just the right tone....

FWIW, I don't care if you call me a socialist. Nonetheless, I'm opposed to abortion and in favor of the personal ownership of hand guns with minimal government intervention. I'm also in favor of balancing the budget. I love Kucinch and Sharpton but would never vote for them. In the last election I was moderately enamored of McCain as I'm sure Red will recall, though I ended up voting for Gore. I prefer someone who at least APPEARS to have some integrity. I think McCain still qualifies, though I strongly disagree with his support for the war.

-Robert
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: chess9
Cad:

Uh, I don't think the argument has much heft when on the one hand you are recognizing the legitimacy of the U.N. and it's hegemony over Iraq and on the other hand ignoring it. Last time I checked, this was called hypocrisy. Furthermore, I haven't even mentioned the obvious insult to the U.N.'s charter when the U.S. marched into Iraq in contravention of the wishes of the U.N. So, yes, I think hypocrisy has just the right tone....

FWIW, I don't care if you call me a socialist. Nonetheless, I'm opposed to abortion and in favor of the personal ownership of hand guns with minimal government intervention. I'm also in favor of balancing the budget. I love Kucinch and Sharpton but would never vote for them. In the last election I was moderately enamored of McCain as I'm sure Red will recall, though I ended up voting for Gore. I prefer someone who at least APPEARS to have some integrity. I think McCain still qualifies, though I strongly disagree with his support for the war.

-Robert

No, it's not hypocracy and we are ignoring nothing because we did NOT march into Iraq in "violation" of the UN's wishes. I do believe that the UN never said to NOT go;) Hypocracy would be to sanction a nation with no intent of enforcing the resolutions and agreements. Citing UN resolution as a basis for "legality" isn't hypocritical just because the UN wouldn't enforce them.:p But again - you can have your OPINION and I will have mine on the legality of the UN and this war.

Well, all I can go on is your posts on this forum that I can remember. You have expoused a Liberal view on things and that's all I can go by, but again - It is becoming quite obvious that "liberal" has become a "dirty" word and people on the left are trying to distance themselves from it by clinging to a couple "moderate" views(or <gasp> even a conservative ideal or two) and also trying to promote the label of "progressive".

CkG
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
As chess9 points out you cannot use 1441 as an excuse for going into Iraq. The UN Security Council would never have allowed it so the matter never even came up to a vote. Also if you are using the argument that Saddam deserved to be punished for not following UN resolutions you need to consider that the US also isn't complying with UN resolution 1483.

"Pillage is Forbidden": Why the Privatization of Iraq is Illegal

What are the U.S.-U.K.'s responsibilities as occupier of Iraq?

On May 22 2003, the United Nations Security Council passed Resolution 1483, abolishing sanctions against Iraq and recognizing the United States and United Kingdom as the country's occupying powers. The resolution called upon the U.S.-U.K. Authority to "comply fully with their obligations under international law, including in particular the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and the Hague Regulations of 1907."

How has the CPA changed Iraq's economy and laws?

Among many changes, the U.S.-U.K. Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) has laid off hundreds of thousands of Iraqi workers, virtually eliminated trade tariffs and enacted laws that radically alter Iraq's economy. Order 39, decreed by CPA head Paul Bremer on September 20 2003, abolished Iraq's ban on foreign investment, allowing foreigners to own up to 100% of all sectors except natural resources. Over 200-state owned enterprises, including electricity, telecommunications and pharmaceuticals have been privatized. Iraq's highest tax rate has been lowered from 45% to a flat rate of 15%. Although foreign ownership of land remains illegal, companies or individuals will be allowed to lease properties for up to 40 years.

Are these changes legal?

These laws stand in clear violation of Iraq's constitution, as is openly admitted. The U.S. Department of Commerce notes that "the Iraqi Constitution prohibits foreign ownership of immovable (real) property," and "prohibits investment in, and establishment of, companies in Iraq by foreigners who are not resident citizens of Arab countries."

Consider how the CPA's new laws and massive layoffs conform to its obligations under international law [4]:

Hague Regulations

Art. 43. The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country.

Art. 46. Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and private property, as well as religious convictions and practice, must be respected. Private property cannot be confiscated.

Art. 47. Pillage is formally forbidden.

Art. 53. An army of occupation can only take possession of cash, funds, and realizable securities which are strictly the property of the State, depots of arms, means of transport, stores and supplies, and, generally, all movable property belonging to the State which may be used for military operations.
All appliances, whether on land, at sea, or in the air, adapted for the transmission of news, or for the transport of persons or things, exclusive of cases governed by naval law, depots of arms, and, generally, all kinds of munitions of war, may be seized, even if they belong to private individuals, but must be restored and compensation fixed when peace is made.

Art. 55. The occupying State shall be regarded only as administrator and usufructuary of public buildings, real estate, forests, and agricultural estates belonging to the hostile State, and situated in the occupied country. It must safeguard the capital of these properties, and administer them in accordance with the rules of usufruct.

Geneva Conventions

Article 53: Any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations.

Article 54: The Occupying Power may not alter the status of public officials or judges in the occupied territories, or in any way apply sanctions to or take any measures of coercion or discrimination against them, should they abstain from fulfilling their functions for reasons of conscience. "

What is usufruct?

In accordance with Article 55 of the Hague Regulations, the U.S.-U.K. are "regarded only as administrator and usufructuary" of Iraq's resources and immovable property, which it must administer "in accordance with the rules of usufruct." Bouvier's Law dictionary defines usufruct as: "The right of enjoying a thing, the property of which is vested in another, and to draw from the same all the profit, utility and advantage which it may produce, provided it be without altering the substance of the thing." As usufructuary, the U.S.-U.K. coalition would have the right to use Iraq's resources without altering or destroying the character of the resource itself. It is widely recognized that agriculture, wherein crops can grow again and no serious effect is made on the soil or the land, is an appropriate usage of the right of usufruct. But oil is far different: the extraction of oil is the process of extracting the original resource itself, as the fossil fuels are not renewable and the character of the land from which it comes is severely altered, if not depleted.

Order 39
1483

Also see this article from the Guardian
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
CAD:

I'm sure everyone is slanting their political views to suit you or some perceived illegitimacy of liberalism. That's sheer hogwash and a bit over the top don't you think? Anyway, the truth is people aren't pancakes. I know this is hard for some folks to swallow, but few people fit into convenient molds. And, again FWIW, I have respect for the old fashioned conservatives, like Will and Buckley. The sort of conservatism that is frequently brandished here is cartoonish-the product of minds formed by talk radio and the Fox Cartoon Network and Drudge the Sludge. Some of the liberals sound equally as bad. I won't name names, but almost everyone who posts here would do well to think 47 times before they hit the send button. Typically, I don't send about 80% of the posts I type up. Sometimes the 47th thought just does the trick. :)

-Robert
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
GrGr:

OOOOO! Nice post! Usufruct is use.

Gee, if I hadn't been so lazy I would have looked all of that up. I'm feeling inadequate now...and rightly so. Anyway, good work.

The neocons hate the U.N. For them to use U.N. resolutions in their arguments is not only hypocritical it is clearly disingenuous.

Why don't they just admit they like playing with heavy equipment, blowing things up, and killing the bad guys?

It's the John Wayne syndrome. A loathesome malady, indeed.

-Robert
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
1
76
Ty chess9, to be honest I must point out that I only wrote the lines in the beginning of the post in case anyone thinks otherwise. The rest is a quote from nologo.org :)
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: chess9
CAD:

I'm sure everyone is slanting their political views to suit you or some perceived illegitimacy of liberalism. That's sheer hogwash and a bit over the top don't you think? Anyway, the truth is people aren't pancakes. I know this is hard for some folks to swallow, but few people fit into convenient molds. And, again FWIW, I have respect for the old fashioned conservatives, like Will and Buckley. The sort of conservatism that is frequently brandished here is cartoonish-the product of minds formed by talk radio and the Fox Cartoon Network and Drudge the Sludge. Some of the liberals sound equally as bad. I won't name names, but almost everyone who posts here would do well to think 47 times before they hit the send button. Typically, I don't send about 80% of the posts I type up. Sometimes the 47th thought just does the trick. :)

-Robert

Hehe - If only you knew how many 1s and 0s I've wasted typing and retyping responses:p
I'm not trying to say you are a Liberal - but like I said - all I have to go on is your posts and they way you present your views. I'm sorry you feel offended by someone suggesting you are a Liberal(I know I would be though;):D) But that isn't the point I was trying to make - Liberals come in all shapes and sizes which is why I responded to your "crusty" old man comment. I just find it interesting though that people seem to want to run away from the Liberal "label". Heck - I'm a Conservative - I take it seriously and am proud to be one. Sure I don't subscribe to every Conservative view, but I still don't try to run from the label. It's who I am - It's what I believe - It's the ideals I hold. I do agree though that there are some cartoonish characters in the 3 divisions(Liberal, Moderate, Conservative) - but so? They have a right to be who they are and say what they wish - I just find it mildly entertaining that people are trying to shy away from being a "Liberal"...or atleast admitting that they are. Again - this wasn't directed at you - it was a general analysis of the political landscape. There was a gallup poll released the other day about this...I'll have to go dig it up and start a thread about it so we can discuss it in a different thread though.:)

CkG
 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
6,944
3
81
I was not using the UN as justification for the war. I wasn't even making an argument for justification of the war. Well maybe a little in the last couple. I admit they were more subjective than the first couple of myths.

I was only pointing out some of the biggest inaccuracies in the statements of some of the liberals here who seem to either not know or not care about the facts.
I fully respect everyone's free speech and right to their own opinion.
And I can fully respect the fact that other's may disagree about whether or not we were right to go into Iraq.

But I find it very irritating when people use completely inaccurate statements as arguments for their position.

Somebody saying "there is no proof Iraq ever had WMD" does a terrible disservice to the credibility of their arguments because that is simply a false statement.

I would feel the exact same thing if I heard someond on the other side say "we had to attack Iraq because Saddam was responsible for 9/11" because that is just as false a statement.
 

AEB

Senior member
Jun 12, 2003
681
0
0
By the liberals logic we dont need the UN because all they do is pass resolutions and dont enforce them. Every situation is differnt. WE can't attack NKorea like iraq because we belive Nkorea HAS nuclear bombs. and we also belive they would use them. Iraq on the other had was purchasing components for a bombs from france and other countries. so if anything we prevented them from getting nuclear technology(keep in mind they had the money to buy it) France didnt want to fight because they like the russians were profiting from iraq. Germany didnt go in because they are semi-globalized because of the EURO and now te countries cant act alone w/o repricussion to the currency. Its quite simple. Deny it all you want but we were justified and needed to get saddam out of power.