Brining a turkey before frying question

[ManBearPig]

So I know you guys recommend brining a turkey before frying it, but if I'm marinating it, is there any need for brining it? I actually don't care, my brother wants to know. Whatever tastes best is the best for me though lol.

Thanks atot!

 

[dquan97]

Brining (in sufficient length of time) is supposed to infuse the meat w/ the spices/salts deeper into the meat

 

[shortylickens]

Mom says brine or marinate only.

Never both.

 

[Farmer]

Mom says brine or marinate only.

Never both.

What the hell is the difference?

Marinate means using an acid to tenderize the meat. Brining means allowing salts to diffuse into the meat. Doing both would do both.

I.e., brining and marinating would mean soaking the meat in a solution that is both acidic and salty.

I don't see what the harm is.

 

[sactoking]

What the hell is the difference?

Marinate means using an acid to tenderize the meat. Brining means allowing salts to diffuse into the meat. Doing both would do both.

I.e., brining and marinating would mean soaking the meat in a solution that is both acidic and salty.

I don't see what the harm is.

Marinades are not intended for prolonged exposure, brines require it. If you tried to dual brine/marinade by exposing your turkey to an acidic and saline environment for an extended period of time the acid would cause the protein to denature similar to cooked food.

 

[Farmer]

Marinades are not intended for prolonged exposure, brines require it. If you tried to dual brine/marinade by exposing your turkey to an acidic and saline environment for an extended period of time the acid would cause the protein to denature similar to cooked food.

So brine first, add acid later.

 

[sactoking]

Probably not. The brine relies upon osmosis to do its thing. If you brine a bird and then marinate it, the marinade will likely pull liquid out of the bird (since the marinade solution is less saline than the bird juice) and reverse some of the benefit of the brine.

To me, doing both is like applying a dry rub and a wet rub to BBQ.

 

[disappoint]

Probably not. The brine relies upon osmosis to do its thing. If you brine a bird and then marinate it, the marinade will likely pull liquid out of the bird (since the marinade solution is less saline than the bird juice) and reverse some of the benefit of the brine.

To me, doing both is like applying a dry rub and a wet rub to BBQ.

What wrong with dry and wet in a BBQ? I've done dry rub, cook the meat then mop some BBQ sauce on it just before it's done.

 

[Ken g6]

Probably not. The brine relies upon osmosis to do its thing. If you brine a bird and then marinate it, the marinade will likely pull liquid out of the bird (since the marinade solution is less saline than the bird juice) and reverse some of the benefit of the brine.

I'm confused. Osmosis moves water from a less saline solution to a more saline solution. So why does there need to be salt in the brining process at all?

 

[Farmer]

Probably not. The brine relies upon osmosis to do its thing. If you brine a bird and then marinate it, the marinade will likely pull liquid out of the bird (since the marinade solution is less saline than the bird juice) and reverse some of the benefit of the brine.

To me, doing both is like applying a dry rub and a wet rub to BBQ.

Umm, just add acid to the brining solution. You alter the acidity without altering the relative concentration of salt.

It is also abuse of terminology to call it osmosis. It is just diffusion of salt ions into the meat.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

One or the other but, not both. Whichever you do, make sure the bird is dry before you fry.

 

[Howard]

If you brine, don't bother with anything but salt or perhaps sugar. There's no conclusive evidence that herbs or spices can penetrate the meat.

I suppose you could marinade, but acid cold-cooks meat, so...

 

[sactoking]

What wrong with dry and wet in a BBQ? I've done dry rub, cook the meat then mop some BBQ sauce on it just before it's done.

There's a difference between "wet" like adding sauce and a "wet rub".

I'm confused. Osmosis moves water from a less saline solution to a more saline solution. So why does there need to be salt in the brining process at all?

The fluid in the turkey is less saline than the brine, causing fluid to flow from the turkey into the brine. One the turkey and brine reach saline equilibrium fluid flows freely between the two. During this stage, fluid flowing back into the bird brings salt and flavorful liquid with it. That's the point of brining.

Umm, just add acid to the brining solution. You alter the acidity without altering the relative concentration of salt.

It is also abuse of terminology to call it osmosis. It is just diffusion of salt ions into the meat.

Then you're back to your original problem in that your brine is now acidic and "cooks" the turkey.

 

[zinfamous]

no acid

 

[Howard]

I'm confused. Osmosis moves water from a less saline solution to a more saline solution. So why does there need to be salt in the brining process at all?

The salt on the outside of the meat draws water out of the meat through osmosis. However, the salt also begins to cause the myofibrils to swell and increase their water-holding capacity. Ergo, no salt = no increased fluid uptake.

Also, brines are best done until equilibrium, not on a concentration/time basis. If you like salty food I suggest a 2% salt w/w brine with up to 0.5% w/w sugar. If you don't much favor salt, 1% salt w/w is better. When doing the math, you should include the mass of the food as well. The equation is concentration of salt = mass of salt divided by [mass of salt plus mass of (liquid+meat)]

Example:

10 kg turkey in a 5 gallon bucket will probably require about 10 L of fluid. The total mass of solvent is 20 kg, so to get 1% w/w you would need 202 grams of salt. Let it sit for at least 24 hours if thawed and in ice water.

The only issue with brining is that the taste of the meat gets diluted as well, and because the skin is so wet the skin doesn't crisp up as much as it potentially could - which is where either dry curing or air chilling come into play.

EDIT: To avoid the need of additional air chilling to allow the brined skin to crisp properly, you can simply remove the skin before brining, and then reattach the (air-dried in fridge) skin to the meat using transglutaminase AKA Activa RM. Or, after brining, do this: http://www.seriouseats.com/2010/09/the-food-lab-how-to-make-peking-duck-at-home.html

 

[Howard]

The fluid in the turkey is less saline than the brine, causing fluid to flow from the turkey into the brine. One the turkey and brine reach saline equilibrium fluid flows freely between the two. During this stage, fluid flowing back into the bird brings salt and flavorful liquid with it. That's the point of brining.

Nope. If there's equilibrium then not much happens due to osmosis. It's only if there is a difference in concentrations across a semipermeable membrane that osmosis can happen. Supposing that enough water came out of the meat to equalize the NaCl concentration (not likely), after that point is reached, salt already exists in equal concentrations which means one side is not going to give MORE salt to disrupt the equilibrium.

Meat does have some natural salt in it, FWIW.

 

[Farmer]

Then you're back to your original problem in that your brine is now acidic and "cooks" the turkey.

Let me spell it out:

Add brining solution. Wait long time. Add acid to brine. Wait short time. Cook.

Regarding "osmosis":

The turkey has plenty of water in it. Number/concentration equilibrium is when the salt concentration in the surrounding solution is equal to the salt concentration inside the turkey, i.e., brining increases the salt concentration in the turkey.

 

[Howard]

Number/concentration equilibrium is when the salt concentration in the surrounding solution is equal to the salt concentration inside the turkey

Obviously.

i.e., brining increases the salt concentration in the turkey.

Yes, but you haven't explained why.

 

[Gibsons]

Thomas Keller uses a lemon brine for fried chicken.
http://blog.junbelen.com/2010/01/21/brining-chicken-thomas-keller-style/

5 lemons in 2 gallons, so not super acidic, but still.

 

[Aharami]

hmmm....i have followed Emeril's recipe (but Alton brown's cooking method) for the past 2 yrs, and the turkey has come out juicy and flavorful without any basting needed. Emeril's brine calls for salt, brown sugar, oranges and lemons - so thats adding acid as well as saline solution to the brine

 

[Farmer]

Obviously.

Yes, but you haven't explained why.

Why?

Given any initial state, an isolated system will come to equilibrium. Hence, it will come to equilibrium.... I don't know how to better state that.

If you want to think of it in terms of transport, you initially have high concentration on the outside of the turkey, and low concentration on the inside of the turkey. If the system is isolated (i.e., there are no sources or sinks of salt/no flow in or out the boundaries), then its a diffusion process whose long time/steady state behavior is equal concentration everywhere. Unless the turkey skin/flesh is completely nonporous, the porosity of the turkey skin/flesh has no influence on the steady state behavior, only the time needed to converge to steady state (or how long you need to brine your turkey for before achieving maximal salt in turkey).

The process is mathematically identical to one where you have an isolated system of consisting of one unit of hot water and one unit of cold water, separated by an imperfect thermal insulator. The steady state condition is 2 units of lukewarm water, as you would expect from intuition and as is physical reality.

 

[Howard]

Why?

Given any initial state, an isolated system will come to equilibrium. Hence, it will come to equilibrium.... I don't know how to better state that.

If you want to think of it in terms of transport, you initially have high concentration on the outside of the turkey, and low concentration on the inside of the turkey. If the system is isolated (i.e., there are no sources or sinks of salt/no flow in or out the boundaries), then its a diffusion process whose long time/steady state behavior is equal concentration everywhere. Unless the turkey skin/flesh is completely nonporous, the porosity of the turkey skin/flesh has no influence on the steady state behavior, only the time needed to converge to steady state (or how long you need to brine your turkey for before achieving maximal salt in turkey).

The process is mathematically identical to one where you have an isolated system of consisting of one unit of hot water and one unit of cold water, separated by an imperfect thermal insulator. The steady state condition is 2 units of lukewarm water, as you would expect from intuition and as is physical reality.

Yes, but the chloride ions are not going to move across the barrier. Only the H2O will. If the salt doesn't move (and it won't, according to osmosis), how does the salt get inside?

From wiki:

Osmosis is the net movement of solvent molecules through a partially permeable membrane into a region of higher solute concentration, in order to equalize the solute concentrations on the two sides.

Obviously the side with the higher solute concentration is the side with the brine. The net movement is that of the solvent molecules, being water, from the low concentration side to the high concentration side. As long as the brine has a higher salt concentration than the meat does, then according to osmosis, the brine will keep sucking water from the meat until the natural concentration of salt in the meat equals the concentration of salt in the brine. I don't believe there exists any flesh in the world that is either a) salty enough that it could lose a reasonable amount of water to meet equilibrium, or b) so bloated with water that the brine could be diluted to an almost not-brine.

 

[Farmer]

Yes, but the chloride ions are not going to move across the barrier. Only the H2O will. If the salt doesn't move (and it won't, according to osmosis), how does the salt get inside?

Umm, why can ions not move through the turkey? The final configuration will be the one that is most likely, and at room temperature, the most likely configuration is one which is minimum energy or somewhere thereabouts. Unless somehow the "turkey" membrane pore size is so small it is smaller than a Na or Cl ion, they will and do move through.

The dominant process here is not "osmosis" or whatever you call it, i.e, we're not interested in solvent moving out of the turkey into the brine. We're interested in solute moving out of the brine into the turkey. Intuitively, you can imagine that this is the dominant transport mechanism. The fact that brining actually works should be convincing enough.

Think of it this way: Assume that "osmosis" is the dominant transport mechanism. Then steady state would be a bone dry turkey floating in a brine that is less concentrated than initially. Does that seem physically plausible?

 

[Howard]

Think of it this way: Assume that "osmosis" is the dominant transport mechanism. Then steady state would be a bone dry turkey floating in a brine that is less concentrated than initially. Does that seem physically plausible?

If osmosis is the only process happening then that is the only realistic situation! The solute will not move to a region of lower concentration unless the side with higher concentration is also at a higher pressure relative to the other side. Otherwise, we would not need RO systems to generate desalinated water.

Unless you are saying something happens but it is not osmosis. But then what is it? EDIT2: It's diffusion. But this in itself does not increase the juiciness of the meat, only the saltiness.

EDIT: Did you read post #15?

EDIT3: http://books.google.ca/books?id=GKg...en#v=onepage&q=myofibril brine myosin&f=false

 

[Farmer]

You/I are/am talking about two processes that happen simultaneously:

1.) There is number exchange, that is, exchange in solute (salt) particle number. Number equilibrium is achieved when concentration is equal between brine and meat.

2.) There is volume exchange, that is, exchange in solvent (water) volume. Volume equilibrium is achieved when pressure is equal between brine and turkey.

I am claiming that pressure equilibrium already exists, and hence (2.) or "osmosis" does not occur, or occurs to a small degree. There is no reason to believe that there is significant pressure difference between the water contained in the turkey and the water in the brine (I would say they are both at around 1 atm). There is, however, great reason to believe the initial concentration of salt is much higher in the brine than in the turkey, by construction. Hence, I conclude (1.) is the dominant non-equilibrium that causes transport. Specifically, it causes salt ions to diffuse into the turkey.

As such, we can expect brining to produce flavorful meat without drying it. This is supported by the fact that brining does exactly that. Brining does not produce dry, bland meat, which would be the case if (2.) was dominant, as you suggest (at least I think that's what you are suggesting).

To be honest, I trust my stat mech book more than "Ideas in Food," however what they state in that first paragraph of pp 23 actually a good explanation (they say essentially what I said here, except they apply it more locally). Sure, locally, (1.) and (2.) maybe comparably away from equilibrium, but globally, (1.) is the dominant non-equilibrium, hence governs what happens to the turkey as a whole.