Originally posted by: palehorse
Originally posted by: manowar821
Why can't the USA stay the hell out of other nations? Stop making us citizens look like douche-bags, mr. government.
1) Do you disagree with our presence in Afghanistan as well? Or just Iraq?
2) If you disagree with both, what would you have had us do after 9/11?
3) What do you think would happen tomorrow if we left both of those places today?
4) If AQ takes over either country -- or any other -- would you care? Regarding extremist training camps and the subsequently exported violence, how would you mitigate either of those developments?
inquiring minds want to know... heck, anyone else who feels the same as Mano, please take a stab at the same questions.. if you dare.
There are 3 reasons to be allowed to commit military action in another nation:
1. You've been invited/allowed by the official government, or an overwhelming majority of the people, AND there is an absolutely known direct threat against us which has attacked us from that nation.
2. That nation (ie the government officially, or an overwhelming majority of the people) performed the attack against us.
3. That nation (ie the government officially, or an overhwleming majority of the people) has launched attacks against other nations who did not first attack them AND the global community has agreed to commit to war against them to cease such actions.
That's it. Anything else is an illegal act of war, and the entire world should band together against the aggressor.
Based on that criteria Afghanistan is questionable at best, Iraq is flat out wrong.
We can work against ideologies we don't agree with, in lawful ways. We can reach accommodation with those who are willing to do so. We can contribute to solving the problems which create such groups in the world. We can commit to social and economic sanctions, and encourage others to do the same. With enough global pressure one of two things must occur: the offender will cave partially or completely, the offender will violate us in a manner already covered in the reasons for war above. This will not always work, but will diffuse a large percentage of issues. The rest is simply the cost of existing with others on the same planet.
Having caused so much damage already, leaving could cause extensive problems. However, done correctly, it could also alleviate many problems. Staying WILL cause problems, as has already been demonstrated clearly. Leaving at least returns us to a position of ideological superiority. Moreover, with proper social and economic support it should be possible to accomplish much of the positive goals of our invasion, without as much cost, losses, invoking of anger, etc. It is always best to lead by example, not by force.
If any nation is taken over by any ideological group, it presents issues. The situation you suggest would be no worse than any other, such as neo-cons taking over control of the USA, as already demonstrated. Again, the way to handle it, like anything else, is through negotiation and compromise. In extreme situations you implement sanctions and gather global support. That either forces a change, or leads to acceptable warfare.
I would go considerably farther than the original plea by extending this 'hands-off' attitude to all covert operations as well (with the possible exception of information gathering). In other words, no more school of the americas, no more cia overthrows, etc. It only goes badly for everyone involved. All such actions are at LEAST as bad as overt military engagements.
You're an idiot. Seriously.
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