Breaking News: N. Korea to abolish nuclear program for 'military purpose,' negotiator says..
- Thread starter Insane3D
- Start date
The United States has demanded an immediate dismantling of the North's nuclear program. Pyongyang says it wants aid and security guarantees before it begins to do so.
We already held up our end of that deal...
We already held up our end of that deal...
now we can smash him without retaliation!! it's like kim jong forgot about what happened to saddam after he got rid of his weapons of mass destruction...
i'm kinda glad Saddam didn't have any WMD. woulda been a real mess if he did. too bad Shrub wasted $87b to find that out. but yes, the world is safer now, but is it $87 billion safer? or $8.7 billion safer when adjusted for halliburton inflation.
i'm kinda glad Saddam didn't have any WMD. woulda been a real mess if he did. too bad Shrub wasted $87b to find that out. but yes, the world is safer now, but is it $87 billion safer? or $8.7 billion safer when adjusted for halliburton inflation.
What do you bet they'll demand a breeder reactor for their "peaceful" program? "Umm, that plutonium is just stored for safe keeping in one of our underground facilities near a launchpad. Not used for military purposes, honest."
Trusting North Korea is about the most moronic thing anyone could do at this point.
Trusting North Korea is about the most moronic thing anyone could do at this point.
umm Yay? Let us see what these talks accomplished.
1) The Taechon and Yongbyon reactors are not being dismantled.(Yongbyon only has one purpose)
2) Kim Jong Il and Co. are still in power.
Yeah, we really accomplished something.... Saying they will "freeze" or "end" their nuclear capabilities is a joke; they were supposed to end those in 1994.
Also, we haven't completed our end of the deal of the 1994 agreement. The two light-water nuclear reactors have not been finished and the food aid being sent for the next month or so is quite insufficient to provide for N. Korea.
1) The Taechon and Yongbyon reactors are not being dismantled.(Yongbyon only has one purpose)
2) Kim Jong Il and Co. are still in power.
Yeah, we really accomplished something.... Saying they will "freeze" or "end" their nuclear capabilities is a joke; they were supposed to end those in 1994.
Also, we haven't completed our end of the deal of the 1994 agreement. The two light-water nuclear reactors have not been finished and the food aid being sent for the next month or so is quite insufficient to provide for N. Korea.
does anyone know where you can get a video of Madelene Albright dancing a little jig with Kim Jong Il? I remember seeing it years ago when she went over to N.K. to seal the "deal" that President BJ had come up with to "dismantle" NK's nuclear capability.
I just love the spin that the Bush Admin puts on the whole sordid chain of events, the Clintonites having not done much better. The DPRK serves as an all purpose boogeyman, a magnificent ruse. They threaten nobody but their southern cousins, and even that is much overblown. Why? because they don't have the resources to actually wage war, lacking any backing from their Chinese and Russian neighbors- they suffer from chronic shortages of food and fuel, obvious prerequisites for any conflict lasting more than a few days. And a conventional war would last a lot longer than that, given the defense in depth by the south, their advanced powerhouse economy, and ample backing by both the US and Japan.
What we're witnessing is foreign policy designed to serve a domestic agenda- NMD, Military expansion and solidification of support for a "Great Patriotic Leader"- GWB. The Admin needs "Enemies" to support their policy, so if there aren't any of real consequence, they'll create them, preferably only in the mind of the electorate. Current policy does just that. It's a powerplay exploitation of the deliberate fearmongering used successfully in the wake of 9/11.
It reallly doesn't matter if the DPRK has a few nukes, which I doubt. The disparity in power assures that their entire country would become a nuclear wasteland within minutes of their use against any American ally. The DPRK is obviously aware of this. The issue is finding a way for the DPRK to refrain from such development or proliferation for reasons of self interest. Current Admin policy actually encourages, almost demands that they engage in such activities.
That's not to say that I approve of the DPRK regime, or defend them at all. The current round of increased tensions are not of their making, however, but rather of our own. It's not really about them, but about us, and about how easily we're manipulated by posing and chest thumping.
What we're witnessing is foreign policy designed to serve a domestic agenda- NMD, Military expansion and solidification of support for a "Great Patriotic Leader"- GWB. The Admin needs "Enemies" to support their policy, so if there aren't any of real consequence, they'll create them, preferably only in the mind of the electorate. Current policy does just that. It's a powerplay exploitation of the deliberate fearmongering used successfully in the wake of 9/11.
It reallly doesn't matter if the DPRK has a few nukes, which I doubt. The disparity in power assures that their entire country would become a nuclear wasteland within minutes of their use against any American ally. The DPRK is obviously aware of this. The issue is finding a way for the DPRK to refrain from such development or proliferation for reasons of self interest. Current Admin policy actually encourages, almost demands that they engage in such activities.
That's not to say that I approve of the DPRK regime, or defend them at all. The current round of increased tensions are not of their making, however, but rather of our own. It's not really about them, but about us, and about how easily we're manipulated by posing and chest thumping.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
- 29,307
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I'd call kidnapping Japanese citizens and firing missiles over Japan 'threatening,' how about you? Hell, NK even threatened Australia awhile ago after Howard went on record about NK's maritime narcotics smuggling. I don't regard the massive amount of artillery aimed at Seoul 'overblown' either. Kim's a nut, NK is dangerous, and both are independant of who is currently in the White House. Kim Il Jong dances to his own drum, not ours (unfortunetly).
Yeh, well, cage69, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that "over japan" is the only real way they could test fire a rocket, and that it probably had enough payload capacity to deliver a commemorative coin of their great leader...
And while the DPRK definitely dances to their own drum, they're not stupid, either. Instigating full-scale war would be suicidal, and they're obviously well aware of that.. Their true military capabilities are really only along the lines of forcing any invader to pay a high price.
And they're big on posing and chest puffing, too- like a kid whistling in the dark...
Yet they're being portrayed as some kind of massive threat, which is pure hogwash. They're the last of the paranoid Stalinist regimes, and will crumble from internal pressures, provided that their govt has no outside threats with which to rally support in the populace...
And while the DPRK definitely dances to their own drum, they're not stupid, either. Instigating full-scale war would be suicidal, and they're obviously well aware of that.. Their true military capabilities are really only along the lines of forcing any invader to pay a high price.
And they're big on posing and chest puffing, too- like a kid whistling in the dark...
Yet they're being portrayed as some kind of massive threat, which is pure hogwash. They're the last of the paranoid Stalinist regimes, and will crumble from internal pressures, provided that their govt has no outside threats with which to rally support in the populace...
they threaten everyone, everyday, all the time...you need to read some more, and spend less time gazing in your navel.
start with reading this everyday like I do..N. Korean News Agency, and you'll start to get a sense of how screwed up and dangerous they are.
they have directly threatened Japan - Nearly two years ago, the communist North test-fired a long-range missile that flew over Japan and landed in the Pacific, rattling nerves across East Asia
they have an operational missle, the Taepodong 1 missile that can hit japan and much of the pacific rim nations.
they are developing (or have) the Taepodong 2 with range of up to 8,000 km, which i believe would be able to reach Los Angeles carrying a nuclear warhead.
N Korea threatens US targets
you are utterly naive and perhaps hopelessly stupid. you need to study harder in school.
The missile capable of hitting the United States has not been tested; it's assumed that the missile is fully functional and can hit the western part of the United States.
Also, for those saying there is no threat to Americans; go look up how many Americans are based in Japan and South Korea.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
- 29,307
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I'm not so sure about him being hopelessly stupid, but he's giving those South Korean youth organizations a run for their money in the naivete' department...
I love how he points out "Well where else could they shoot it?" Yeah, I'm sure the Japanese see nothing wrong with a hostile neighbor (who has chem/bio and most likely one or two nukes) following up their invective with a demonstration on their reach. Sure, geography should excuse that.
A head of state, crazier than an outhouse rat, in charge of one of the largest and best trained militaries in the world. Who endorses international kidnapping. And narcotics smuggling. And has a history of military intimidation and extortion. And who can't be trusted to abide by signed agreements. Should I bring up slave labor? Oops, guess I just did.
Sorry ghhnn, I'm not sure what came over us. It's obvious NK is a peaceful, timid place with honorable leadership and I can't imagine what all the fuss is about.
I highly suggest a visit to the DMZ, Panmunjom, tunnels, etc., for those thinking that the situation there is "overblown".
Thank you, Heartsurgeon, for the ad hom- coming from a right wing zealot, who clearly believes any fairy tale ol' Dubya cares to spin, I'll take it as a compliment. If you, or anybody else, seriously believes that an impoverished pipsqueak of a nation on the other side of the world poses any kind of real threat to the truly great and very powerful United States per se, you're the victims of scaremongering propaganda so weak as to be laughable. I hope you have your duct tape and visqueen handy, too- why not go out to the garage and fondle it right now?
The DPRK leadership talks a lot of trash, because they're scared shitless of the US, apparently for good reason with the Bushies in power. Witness the charade foisted off on the American public as cause for invading Iraq, and the large number of mindless twits who still believe it, in spite of no evidence in favor and much against.
Thes guys don't have enough diesel fuel to harvest their crops, let alone invade any of their neighbors, and a chronic food shortage of epidemic proportions- continuous famine. Their military equipment is hopelessly dated, spare parts non-existent, support from China or Russia *obviously* not forthcoming. Any attempt at large scale hostilities against any of their neighbors will result in their being stomped flat- it's just that simple, and not contingent on their possession of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons at all. While that leadership is portrayed as madmen in this country, they're clearly not stupid enough to initiate war- they can't win, and they know it. Dubya knows it too, that's part of the reason they're the perfect beard for his propaganda machine, for the fearmongering and penis waving so popular since 9/11.
Their missile technology has been hyped up to make us think we're in mortal danger, when, in fact, we're well out of their range, given the current and near term state of their technology.
http://www.missilethreat.com/missiles/
If the taepodong2 missile becomes operational, and if they can develop a warhead of less than 750 kilos, they could hit hawaii or alaska, maybe. Try to remember that first generation nukes are quite heavy- the bombs used on hiroshima and Nagasaki weighed ~4000 kilos, so they've got a long ways to go. Give 'em a lot of credit, say they could bring the weight down to 1500 kilos, and they still don't have any missile that could get it off the ground...
And, uhh, just what would such a strike do for them, other than bring on total obliteration in under an hour?
They'd have to be utterly desperate, with absolutely nothing to lose, and Dubya is doing his best to make them feel that way... much to the chagrin of our ROK allies. It's easy for the Admin to talk their own trash while pulling American troops back from the DMZ, leaving the ROK to take the big hit of a few hundred thousand first day casualties and their Capital city destroyed if worse comes to worse. They're scared, too, and rightfully so- there are obviously other madmen in this world beside Kim Jong Il... madmen whose dreams of world domination are a lot more realistic than Kim's, and they already have a hit list.
I'll say it again, I'm not defending the DPRK regime, despite efforts to say that I am. It seems clear, however, that this escalation of tensions serves no purpose other than the Bushies' domestic agenda and the possibilities of miscalculation by the DPRK. If anybody knows how to deal with the DPRK, that would be the ROK- let them take the lead in this matter, support our allies in whatever way they want, rather than forcing them into an unnecessary confrontation. If history teaches us anything, it's that regimes like the DPRK depend on foreign threats and isolation to control their population- the one thing they can't survive is peaceful trade and communication with the outside by their own people.
The DPRK leadership talks a lot of trash, because they're scared shitless of the US, apparently for good reason with the Bushies in power. Witness the charade foisted off on the American public as cause for invading Iraq, and the large number of mindless twits who still believe it, in spite of no evidence in favor and much against.
Thes guys don't have enough diesel fuel to harvest their crops, let alone invade any of their neighbors, and a chronic food shortage of epidemic proportions- continuous famine. Their military equipment is hopelessly dated, spare parts non-existent, support from China or Russia *obviously* not forthcoming. Any attempt at large scale hostilities against any of their neighbors will result in their being stomped flat- it's just that simple, and not contingent on their possession of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons at all. While that leadership is portrayed as madmen in this country, they're clearly not stupid enough to initiate war- they can't win, and they know it. Dubya knows it too, that's part of the reason they're the perfect beard for his propaganda machine, for the fearmongering and penis waving so popular since 9/11.
Their missile technology has been hyped up to make us think we're in mortal danger, when, in fact, we're well out of their range, given the current and near term state of their technology.
http://www.missilethreat.com/missiles/
If the taepodong2 missile becomes operational, and if they can develop a warhead of less than 750 kilos, they could hit hawaii or alaska, maybe. Try to remember that first generation nukes are quite heavy- the bombs used on hiroshima and Nagasaki weighed ~4000 kilos, so they've got a long ways to go. Give 'em a lot of credit, say they could bring the weight down to 1500 kilos, and they still don't have any missile that could get it off the ground...
And, uhh, just what would such a strike do for them, other than bring on total obliteration in under an hour?
They'd have to be utterly desperate, with absolutely nothing to lose, and Dubya is doing his best to make them feel that way... much to the chagrin of our ROK allies. It's easy for the Admin to talk their own trash while pulling American troops back from the DMZ, leaving the ROK to take the big hit of a few hundred thousand first day casualties and their Capital city destroyed if worse comes to worse. They're scared, too, and rightfully so- there are obviously other madmen in this world beside Kim Jong Il... madmen whose dreams of world domination are a lot more realistic than Kim's, and they already have a hit list.
I'll say it again, I'm not defending the DPRK regime, despite efforts to say that I am. It seems clear, however, that this escalation of tensions serves no purpose other than the Bushies' domestic agenda and the possibilities of miscalculation by the DPRK. If anybody knows how to deal with the DPRK, that would be the ROK- let them take the lead in this matter, support our allies in whatever way they want, rather than forcing them into an unnecessary confrontation. If history teaches us anything, it's that regimes like the DPRK depend on foreign threats and isolation to control their population- the one thing they can't survive is peaceful trade and communication with the outside by their own people.
North Korea doesn't need diesel fuel to fire hundreds of thousands- millions of artillery shells (with conventional, biological, and chemical warheads) at Seoul. It would be quite an undertaking in airpower to take out these artillery pieces which are nestled in very tough underground bunkers (with openings to fire through). So N. Korea has sufficient ability to inflict heavy casualities on Seoul's millions of citizens.
But you are correct in that their conventional forces are overrated: their army has terrible old equipment, their air force is roughly equivelent to Iraq's air force at the time of Operation Desert Storm, their navy is tiny patrol boats and some mini subs, they have terrible fuel shortages, and I'm sure training is bad if the troops don't have fuel to practice driving, and have to spend all their time foraging for food.
N. Korea's missile capability poses a threat to S. Korea and Japan, but the capabilities of the "future" Taep'o-dong 2 are based on conjecture and possibilities. N. Korea cannot currently hit the United States. Of course, as someone pointed out, there are Americans in S. Korea and Japan, just as there are Americans in Columbia threated by rebels, just as there are thousands of U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan and U.S. citizens in India (not to mention CALL CENTERS) threatened by Pakistani missiles, just as there are thousands of U.S. soldiers in Iraq threatened by Saudi Arabian ballistic missiles.
Zephyr
GoPackGo
Diamond Member
- Oct 10, 2003
- 6,487
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- 126
If North Korea some how managed to hit the US with a Nuke...dont you think there would be a "retaliation" in fact the Nuclear subs would hit KJI in the a$$ with a whole bunch of them.
Honestly though, I don't think they do anything without Chinese approval first. There would be a huge war in asia and china cant afford it. If china were to side with NK, then my guess is we should quit importing from them, freeze any north american or european assets, etc, etc...
Honestly though, I don't think they do anything without Chinese approval first. There would be a huge war in asia and china cant afford it. If china were to side with NK, then my guess is we should quit importing from them, freeze any north american or european assets, etc, etc...
Typical -- posting ignorant statements wholly unsupported by facts of any kind. Until you can actually post intelligently about the military capabilities as well as the political and social reality of North Korea, why don't you just keep your inaccurate assertions to yourself?
Thank you, too, Andrew R- perhaps you'd care to post something of substance, yourself? Or simply bleat the current Admin's line of agitprop fearmongering?
Merely asserting that I don't know what I'm talking about in a rather insulting and defamatory way isn't much of an argument, is it? Unless, of course, you're sticking with the flock, under the care of our own "Great Patriotic Leader".
Let me put it to you like this- if Kim is so strong and so committed to aggression, why didn't he attack when the US was distracted in Iraq?
Things have changed since 1950, both militarily and geo-politically. Forces seemingly strong in entrenched positions are quite vulnerable when exposed, as would be the obvious case in the event of an attack. Such forces would require high mobility, air superiority and a reliable source of supply from the rear in order to prevail. Explain how the DPRK will accomplish that in some non-fairy tale scenario, OK?
Merely asserting that I don't know what I'm talking about in a rather insulting and defamatory way isn't much of an argument, is it? Unless, of course, you're sticking with the flock, under the care of our own "Great Patriotic Leader".
Let me put it to you like this- if Kim is so strong and so committed to aggression, why didn't he attack when the US was distracted in Iraq?
Things have changed since 1950, both militarily and geo-politically. Forces seemingly strong in entrenched positions are quite vulnerable when exposed, as would be the obvious case in the event of an attack. Such forces would require high mobility, air superiority and a reliable source of supply from the rear in order to prevail. Explain how the DPRK will accomplish that in some non-fairy tale scenario, OK?
Nitemare
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2001
- 35,461
- 4
- 76
Kim Jong will wait until we get a pacifist beatnik in office, until then he will continue to run his mouth and make his threats. We did move a couple of destroyers over there after the initial artillery bombardment in Iraq.
Kim Jong might be crazy, but he's not stupid. They could take South Korea easily, but in the mean time North Korea would be totally devastated militarily and ripe for an invasion by China.
China might have helped them in the beginning, but they probably would not mind a regine change....something about a neighbor country ruled by a mad man with nuclear capabilities would make anybody nervous.
Anandtech Experts at work I see! Very good guys, keep up the good work, and remember to shake in fear of the evil North Koreans.
Zephyr
Zephyr
K1052
Elite Member
- Aug 21, 2003
- 49,164
- 39,389
- 136
This is just more extortion by Kim Jong's leadership. He just wants more money, energy, and food for free.
A military confrontation could damage South Korea pretty badly, but it would likely destroy North Korea.
As long as the U.S. is stongly allied with South Korea and willing to strongly defend it (meaning prepared to use strategic nuclear weapons) Jim Jong will not make the first move, unless he has a death wish.
A military confrontation could damage South Korea pretty badly, but it would likely destroy North Korea.
As long as the U.S. is stongly allied with South Korea and willing to strongly defend it (meaning prepared to use strategic nuclear weapons) Jim Jong will not make the first move, unless he has a death wish.
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