Boston Mayor-elect: Police do not need AR-15s

[Absolution75]

AR-15 can also shoot 5.56, which has the same dimensions of .223. While 5.56 has received criticism for stopping power on the battlefield, the standard civilian police officer does not need such a round.

5.56 and .223 are basically the same round. There are some case dimension differences, but they are basically the same thing. You can shoot .223 out of a 5.56 and its fine. The only real difference is the amount of pressure the chamber is subject to when the round is fired, .223 expects lower chamber pressures and its generally not safe to fire a 5.56 out of a .223 chamber. Its the same for .308 and 7.62x51 (except backwards, .308 is the higher pressure round).



I really don't see how giving them a high powered rifle is going to make much of a difference to anyone except someone in body armor. You get hit by a 9mm Glock17 and you're still in a life threatening situation. Getting hit by a 5.56 projectile instead of a 9mm projectile isn't going to make a lot of difference. Police shoot to kill, what difference does it make if its from a different caliber.


Also, 5.56/.223 can penetrate Level 2 body armor, but not Level 3. Idk about armor piercing bullets though, I kinda doubt police run those.

Finally, afaik fragible ammo or whatever is crap and I doubt they use it. It still goes through walls and people just fine.

 

[OCGuy]

5.56 and .223 are basically the same round. There are some case dimension differences, but they are basically the same thing. You can shoot .223 out of a 5.56 and its fine. The only real difference is the amount of pressure the chamber is subject to when the round is fired, .223 expects lower chamber pressures and its generally not safe to fire a 5.56 out of a .223 chamber. Its the same for .308 and 7.62x51 (except backwards, .308 is the higher pressure round).

Yes I learned that my KEL-TEC didn't like 5.56 when a fired round became stuck in the barrel due to the pressure.

My point was that calling .223 an "upclose" varmint round is kind of extreme, seeing as how it is basically the same as a standard issue NATO round used on the battlefield.

 

[Scotteq]

Listen, I live outside of Boston and spent several years working in Boston. Barring special events, I have never seen a Cop walking around with an AR15...ever....so they may have them now but apparently there isn't much use for them other than big events. How about we wait to see what the Police think about this?

Most jurisdictions will keep them in the trunk of their patrol cars.

Used to be the police would keep the heavier weapon locked in a rack on the dashboard center, but that piece of real estate is now occupied by their computer.

 

[Absolution75]

Yes I learned that my KEL-TEC didn't like 5.56 when a fired round became stuck in the barrel due to the pressure.

My point was that calling .223 an "upclose" varmint round is kind of extreme, seeing as how it is basically the same as a standard issue NATO round used on the battlefield.

Oh, I missed that point. But still disagree that police don't need that round, getting shot is bad for you no matter what caliber it is (save for if you have body armor, in which case you need a higher powered rifle round).

You probably know the military also uses 9mm as the standard sidearm round. You can get AR-15's in 9mm as well, would that make them "less lethal?" I kind of doubt it. Perhaps if you're engaging an enemy at over 200+ yards it may, though I doubt police regularly get in firefights that far away.

If you take away AR-15s from cruisers, it limits police ability to deal with planned criminal activity involving body armor.



My point, to be clear:
If you don't have body armor and you get shot, it doesn't really matter with what caliber the bullet is.
If you do have body armor, you getting shot with a handgun isn't going to do much, so police need a high powered rifle.

 

[child of wonder]

What we really don't need is former high school football players and bullies getting badges and guns then given nearly complete autonomy to harass, intimidate, confine, and commit acts of violence against regular citizens thanks to the "good ole boy" mentality of the police force to protect their own which makes the police the number 1 gang in America.

 

[Kadarin]

I currently own 2 AR15 variants, one AR10, a shotgun, and two handguns. Does this mean the police need to be armed with full auto M16s and drive around in APCs? No.

 

[Scotteq]

...
My point, to be clear:
If you don't have body armor and you get shot, it doesn't really matter with what caliber the bullet is.
If you do have body armor, you getting shot with a handgun isn't going to do much, so police need a high powered rifle.

There's some pretty interesting entries in the what the military call PDW {Personal Defense Weapons}. These are short of a full sized rifle, and therefore a more appropriate size for what should be a Civilian agent. And some of them can use specialized rounds which penetrate common body armor. MP7, FN P90, etc.

I'm not thrilled with the idea of street level cops with full auto weapons, though. And anything which can penetrate body armor will also go through walls, car bodywork, and unarmored people. Continuing to spread joy and happiness to anyone else in the path.

 

[Genx87]

According to the new incoming mayor, Boston police do not need AR15s.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/12/30/incoming-boston-mayor-police-clash-over-ar-15-proposal/



Didn't the LA police go through this with the bank robbers who had full-auto AK-47s and were wearing body armor? The police found themselves outgunned by criminals.

Liberalism at its finest. When the need to stop an active shooter arises, just use harsh language.

I applaud a politician who thinks the state doesn't need more firepower.

 

[bradly1101]

Tibetans used to be a profoundly gentle people. Perhaps what we need is a culture that teaches folk how to be evolved humans.

Agreed.

Poverty breeds crime. I think respect for a fellow human may too often take a backseat to desire and perceived needs.

In so many places around the world (including here) there are just too many people trying to squeeze into the jobs that pay a enough to live on. The problem is overpopulation.

People try to keep up any way they can. I could never steal, but I think I understand the desperation that brings one there.

Too often (including here) people are derided for being on 'assistance' (food stamps, social security, medicaid, food banks, unemployment, disability, etc.).

Just reducing food stamps and unemployment the way we have could send some into that desperation that leads to crime. What a solution!

 

[moonbogg]

I just looked at pictures of an AR-15 shooting through three standard body armor vests, the kind good for stopping pistols. Shooting was done at 50 yards. I say its an up close varmint round, and by up close I mean 250-300 yards max for humane kills on a coyote. No one uses .223/5.56 for hunting larger animals usually, because it isn't good for stopping such large animals, and a person is pretty large compared to a coyote. Still, I'm surprised that such a small bullet could penetrate so much. They are called high powered rifles, but they are actually one of the least powerful commonly available rifles there are, aside from rim fires. High powered rifle is .308 or greater IMO.

 

[unokitty]

If you are firing at an unarmed suspect, like the Boston Police did during the capture of the Boston Marathon bomber, its not clear to me how having a more powerful automatic weapon would help.

Nor is it clear how having more powerful weapons would help with 'friendly fire' causalities, like also happened during the pursuit of the Marathon bomber.

Just my opinion but I think that having a good relationship with the people that are being policed as well as having good training are both more important than the automatic weapon or cartridge that a police department utilizes.

Uno
US Army MP Academy Graduate

 

[Absolution75]

There's some pretty interesting entries in the what the military call PDW {Personal Defense Weapons}. These are short of a full sized rifle, and therefore a more appropriate size for what should be a Civilian agent. And some of them can use specialized rounds which penetrate common body armor. MP7, FN P90, etc.

I'm not thrilled with the idea of street level cops with full auto weapons, though. And anything which can penetrate body armor will also go through walls, car bodywork, and unarmored people. Continuing to spread joy and happiness to anyone else in the path.

Don't get me wrong, I don't advocate cops busting their AR-15s out at the first sign of trouble. It should be a weapon of last resort, but I think its a good "just in case gun". So I wouldn't ever want to see a cop walking down the street brandishing an AR-15. They could also go without the full-auto, but I don't think it really matters. Full-auto sounds scarier than it is. Unless you're laying down suppressing fire, its just a waste of ammo.

Though you should look up 5.56/.223 penetration testing results. It is a bad caliber if you want to shoot things through barriers. The small fast bullet typically disintegrates quicker compared to handgun calibers. In that regard, there is typically less "over-penetration" compared to 9mm.

 

[xj0hnx]

I was wondering why someone would think its useful against body armor. Also, I think if I was a cop I would be very uncomfortable with only a pistol. I'd want something that I could actually hit someone with beyond 50ft or whatever range a pistol is reliably good at (basically very close range only).

Most engagements on the street, civilian and LE are within 10m, many within 5m or closer. There is almost no reason at all for firearms that range out to 800m in an urban environment. Even the military is using more short barreled firearms for urban warfare.

 

[xj0hnx]

I would think only the SWAT teams would need such heavy duty artillery and guns. But occurrences like what happened years ago in LA are very rare. But my stance on that is "better gun control" methods... and doing thorough background checks, and not allowing people to sell guns online without having a background check done or other measures. This would decrease the possibility of a nut job, or robbers getting AK-47 or armor piercing rounds.

You clearly do not think before you type. Criminals do not buy guns and go through background checks. I could go get a machine gun, and armor piercing rounds with in an hour if I wanted and not even have to show ID. Background checks are only good for honest people, criminals, pretty much by definition, do not follow the law, ergo, more laws are not going to stop them from getting guns, as a matter of fact, it doesn't even make it harder, hell it almost makes it easier.

 

[her209]

Boston PD needs bombs because terrorist used them at the marathon!!!

 

[OCGuy]

AR-15s don't have full auto.

 

[Doppel]

Only SWAT teams need rifles.

The ongoing militarization of the police force needs to stop.

And actually it isn't "liberal" to avoid wasting public resources.

This.

Regular joe bob cop doesn't need a machine gun--and apparently many of them are select fire. People tend to use the tools they are given and US police have gone full retard with their weaponization.

 

[Scotteq]

.... Though you should look up 5.56/.223 penetration testing results. It is a bad caliber if you want to shoot things through barriers. The small fast bullet typically disintegrates quicker compared to handgun calibers. In that regard, there is typically less "over-penetration" compared to 9mm.

/agreed - which again goes to the 'Patrolmen don't need ARs' argument. Wrong tool for the job. The very qualities a civil administrator would like about it, such as it's relatively low likelihood to over penetrate, fly in the face of police justifications to have it ('take out tough/armored targets'). Not to mention police procedure: cordon off the area and keep everyone out - including officers - in order to contain the subject. Regular uniformed officers can do that, no military hardware needed.

If you're going to, and I'm not saying we should... Despite the fact that many/most jurisdictions already do... A full sized rifle just doesn't seem to be a good fit.

 

[Zodiark1593]

How bout a compromise? An officer is allowed a service semi-auto M4 rifle when said officer completes a marksman course. Full auto rifle in an urban area is a no no, and I don't want a newbie with a rifle either.

 

[Texashiker]

the False Dilemma you are presenting in this thread.

False Dilemma?

Are you saying the Hollywood shootout and Sandy Hook never happened?

 

[OCGuy]

False Dilemma?

Are you saying the Hollywood shootout and Sandy Hook never happened?

Good lord

 

[Texashiker]

Good lord

Would you please get to your point?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Only SWAT teams need rifles.

The ongoing militarization of the police force needs to stop.

I totally agree!!

 

[OCGuy]

Would you please get to your point?

You have already done a great job of proving my point.


Carry on.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Are you saying the Hollywood shootout and Sandy Hook never happened?

Those are not reasons for everyone who owns a badge to have assault rifles!!