Boston and MA tobacco laws

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bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: bozack
And good luck enforcing that patio ban...

Money is a great motivator

How many fines do you think a bar owner can stand before complying?

Dave, I don't know if you have been to a bar with a deck or a patio but as someone who has on more than a few occasions, all I can say again is good luck, short of getting perimeter guards they are going to be facing an uphill battle.

the money they spend on the police force needed may just cost these places their profits, as servers often get laughed at when they ask people to stop smoking....and people who patronize these places don't care about fines.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: Perknose

Yeah, I gotta' agree, bo, cigar bars exist for that purpose and are not so numerous that any non-smoker is somehow forced to work in one.

We forget, but we Americans have always had that social facist instinct. Prohibition is merely the best known example.

Holy shit!, hell hath frozen over :)
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
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Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: mect
Originally posted by: ironwing
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
I can understand banning smoking from bars, the workplace and other such public places but to ban it from Cigar Bars and Smoke Shops is ridiculous.

This slippery slope was predictable.

Environmental tobacco smoke is a health hazard and ought to be mitigated in the workplace, any workplace. Exempting smoke shop employees from workplace protection from tobacco smoke would be like exempting lead miners from protections against lead poisoning.

Right, so did they ban lead mining? No, they provided the workers with adequate protection. Why not legislate that safety masks be provided for workers. I don't think the law should require workers to wear them, but if they are provided, then the company is providing a safe work environment, and people's freedoms aren't removed.
Don't get me wrong, I can't stand to be around smokers. I would be in favor of banning smoking from public parks and other areas, but in a private business, as long as they are providing for the safety of their employees, that isn't any business of mine.

Masks would be a last resort. With worker protection, first line is to engineer the hazard out, if that is not possible, then use administrative controls to prevent/reduce worker exposure, and then lastly to require workers to wear PPE. Companies are required to provide a safe working environment. Optional PPE in the face a present hazard fails this
requirement.

Right, and it is impossible to engineer smoking out of a smoking bar. As I asked before, should they ban the mining of lead? There are substitutes for it, they just aren't as good (whether it be price, properties, etc). And while you are correct that the law mandates that the companies require PPE, I've never agreed with that. I believe the company should inform the employees of the hazards and provide the PPE, but that should be the end of their liability. Especially since many of the safety standards are flat out ridiculous, as would be the case for some people in this scenario. For example, if a person smokes and works at a smoking bar, why should that person have to wear protection against smoking.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: bozack
And good luck enforcing that patio ban...

Money is a great motivator

How many fines do you think a bar owner can stand before complying?

Dave, I don't know if you have been to a bar with a deck or a patio but as someone who has on more than a few occasions, all I can say again is good luck, short of getting perimeter guards they are going to be facing an uphill battle.

the money they spend on the police force needed may just cost these places their profits, as servers often get laughed at when they ask people to stop smoking....and people who patronize these places don't care about fines.

No police type enforement needed.

Simply a video snapshot of the non-compliant establishment with a fine in the mail will suffice.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No police type enforement needed.

Simply a video snapshot of the non-compliant establishment with a fine in the mail will suffice.

Dave....

You are talking about punishing the establishment, which is what will happen...

I am saying what does the establishment have to do in order to "enforce" this ban.

The problem isn't with the bars, but rather the regulars who don't want to follow the rules.

It is going to cost these bars with patios money in extra security or whatever to make sure people don't smoke, either that or they will just close down the patios.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: bozack
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
No police type enforement needed.

Simply a video snapshot of the non-compliant establishment with a fine in the mail will suffice.

Dave....

You are talking about punishing the establishment, which is what will happen...

I am saying what does the establishment have to do in order to "enforce" this ban.

The problem isn't with the bars, but rather the regulars who don't want to follow the rules.

It is going to cost these bars with patios money in extra security or whatever to make sure people don't smoke, either that or they will just close down the patios.

How old are you?

A couple of signs is all it takes. Unless of course you can't read.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
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Originally posted by: bozack

You are talking about punishing the establishment, which is what will happen...

This report from various cities and countries disputes your statement (Word doc):

Economic Impact of Smoking Restrictions in Workplaces and Public Places

(An excellent pamphlet on the economic impact of smoking restrictions has been produced by Luk Joossens and others for Smokefree Europe and can be downloaded from http://www.smokefreeeurope.com/economic_report.htm)

The tobacco lobby and sections of the hospitality trade claim that ending smoking in workplaces and enclosed public places, including pubs and restaurants, would have a negative effect on trade and employment.

However, the objective evidence does not support this argument.

A comprehensive review of 97 studies published before September 2002 on the economic effects of the smoke free policies on the hospitality industry found:
  • Of the 35 studies on this topic published that found a negative impact, none were funded by a source clearly independent of the tobacco industry, and none both used objective measures and were peer reviewed.
  • The 21 best designed studies found that smoke-free restaurant and bar laws had no negative impact on revenue or jobs.
New York

New York?s Smoke-Free Air Act came into effect on March 30, 2003. New York?s hospitality industry lobbied vigorously against the legislation, claiming that it would have a disastrous effect on bars and restaurants.

In March 2004, a report on the impact of the legislation was issued by the New York City Department of Finance, the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, the Department of Small Business Services, and the Economic Development Corporation. It concluded that:
  • ?One year later, the data are clear. . . Since the law went into effect, business receipts for restaurants and bars have increased, employment has risen, virtually all establishments are complying with the law, and the number of new liquor licenses issued has increased?all signs that New York City bars and restaurants are prospering.?
Key findings from the report were that:
  • Business tax receipts in restaurants and bars were up 8.7%;
    [*]Employment in restaurants and bars increased by 10,600 jobs (about 2,800 seasonally adjusted jobs);
    [*]97% of restaurants and bars were fully smoke-free;
    [*]New Yorkers overwhelmingly supported the law.
The 2004 Zagat New York City Restaurant Survey of nearly 30,000 New York restaurant-goers found that 23 percent of respondents said they are eating out more often because of the city?s smoke-free workplace law, while only four percent said they are eating out less. Zagat?s press release concluded:
  • [*]?The city?s recent smoking ban, far from curbing restaurant traffic, has given it a major lift.?
Elsewhere in the United States

A study was conducted by researchers at the Harvard School of School of Public Health of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts? comprehensive statewide smoke-free law, which took effect July 5, 2004. It found that:
  • [*]?Analyses of economic data prior to and following implementation of the law demonstrated that the Massachusetts state-wide law did not negatively affect statewide meals and alcoholic beverage excise tax collections.
A study conducted by researchers at the University of Kentucky?s College of Nursing and the Gatton College of Business and Economics of the Lexington-Fayette County, Kentucky comprehensive smoke-free law that took effect April 27, 2004 found that:
  • ?In general, selected key business indicators in Lexington restaurants, bars, and hotels have not been affected by the smoke-free law. When taking factors into account such as population size, unemployment, and seasonal variation, there was a slight increase in restaurant employment; bar employment remained stable and hotel/motel employment declined in the 10 months after the smoke-free law took effect. There was no effect of the smoke-free law on payroll withholding taxes (workers? earnings) in restaurants, bars, or hotels/motels in the 10 months after the law went into effect, after taking seasonal variation into account. The smoke-free law was not related to business openings or closures in alcohol-serving establishments or at non-alcohol serving establishments.?
In Delaware, the Clean Indoor Air Act came into effect in November 2002. Data from the Delaware Alcohol Beverage Control Commission showed that the number of restaurant, tavern and taproom licenses increased in the year after the law took effect. Data from the Delaware Department of Labor show that employment in the state?s food service and drinking establishments also increased over the same period.

In California, taxable sales receipts for bars and restaurants have increased every year since 1997 (the year before the state?s smoke-free bar law took effect) through 2002 (the most current year full data is available).19 In addition, total employment at bars and restaurants has also increased every year since 1997.20 While bars have seen a decrease in total employment since 1990 (seven years before the smoke-free laws implementation), this trend in bar employment has not been affected by the smoke-free bar law.

Ireland

The Irish law which ended smoking at the workplace (including bars and restaurants) came into force on 29 March 2004. The Licensed Vintners Association (LVA) which represents 95% of Dublin publicans commissioned research to evaluate the economic impact of the ban. In a press release of 9 July 2004 the association stated that:
  • [*]?Research carried out by marketing research company Behaviour and Attitudes confirms the negative economic impact of the Smoking Ban on the Dublin licensed trade, with turnover down by as much as 16%, and overall employment levels cut by up to 14% since the introduction of the Smoking Ban.?
However, figures released in February 2005 by the Central Statistics Office of Ireland (www.cso.ie) do not support the claims made by the Licensed Vintners Association.

Data on the revenues of bars in Ireland are available at monthly basis until December 2004. The Retail Sales Index (RSI) is the official short-term indicator of changes in the level of consumer spending on retail goods and is published every month by the Central Statistics Office (CSO). The official figures show that the value of bar sales in Ireland were at 107.4 in the period after the ban (from April to December 2004) compared to 111.3 in the equivalent period a year earlier (from April to December 2003).
This decrease in revenues of 3.5% (not the much higher figure claimed by the Irish LVA and lobbyists in the UK) simply continues a trend which started back in 2001, well before smokefree legislation was introduced. The volume of sales in bars in Ireland increased until 2000, but decreased by 3% in 2002, 4% in 2003 and 5% in 2004.

Review by Health Scotland

An excellent review of the health and economic impacts of smoking restrictions in public places was carried out for the Scottish Executive by researchers at the Health Economics Research Unit and Department of Public Health at the University of Aberdeen

The executive summary of the report states that:
  • [*]?Studies of the impact of smoking restrictions on the hospitality sector (hotels, bars and restaurants), using objective data such as sales tax and employment, have failed to find any statistically significant effect. The evidence from these studies is not as robust as the evidence relating to health effects, in terms of quantity of published studies, study design and sample size. However, the findings are consistent in demonstrating small and mainly positive effects

    [*]These studies were carried out in the context of claims that there would be a negative impact of 30%. The studies were designed with sufficient power to detect effects of this size and they demonstrated that impacts of this size had not occurred in any of the locations studied.?
Britain: Report of the Chief Medical Officer

In his Annual Report for 2003, the Government?s Chief Medical Officer, Professor Sir Liam Donaldson, said that a comprehensive smokefree law could benefit the British economy by up to £2.7 billion.

This could include up to £680m saved by having a healthier workforce, which could produce more goods, £140m saved through fewer sick days, £430m saved because less production would be lost to cigarette breaks and £100m saved by not having to clean up behind smokers.

The CMO said evidence from abroad showed bans in pubs and restaurants have not proved to be bad for business. He added that visits to Ireland, California and New York, which have already banned smoking in public places, showed a ban could be enforced without the hospitality trade being damaged - as had been feared. He said he found bars and restaurants "thronging with people".
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: bozack

You are talking about punishing the establishment, which is what will happen...

This report from various cities and countries disputes your statement (Word doc):

Yeah, every anecdotal post-ban news story in the US, no matter the city or state, has reported a negligible or zero negative effect on sales, which, personally, I continue to find surprising.

If smokers were as energized and united as the NRA, we'd be witnessing a far different story. But despite the best efforts of tobacco companies to stimulate a grass roots smoker's lobby, it doesn't really happen.

I wonder if this is because of the sin/shame/health factor, but we really don't face militant activist smokers groups staging "smoke-ins" or whatnot.


 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
How old are you?

A couple of signs is all it takes. Unless of course you can't read.

Dave, I could ask the same of you give your assinine posts...

I have been in plenty of establishments post smoking ban where people were still smoking, especially in college towns...

A few signs don't mean shit, especially in outdoor settings, people will break the rules and because of them the establishments will possibly get fined.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
Originally posted by: Perknose
Yeah, every anecdotal post-ban news story in the US, no matter the city or state, has reported a negligible or zero negative effect on sales, which, personally, I continue to find surprising.

If smokers were as energized and united as the NRA, we'd be witnessing a far different story. But despite the best efforts of tobacco companies to stimulate a grass roots smoker's lobby, it doesn't really happen.

I wonder if this is because of the sin/shame/health factor, but we really don't face militant activist smokers groups staging "smoke-ins" or whatnot.

I chalk it up to smokers not caring if they have to go outside to smoke, you're still socializing and it isn't that much of an inconvenience. I also think that part of the latter point you raise is somewhat of an issue as well, as most people realize the behavior is "bad" from a health standpoint and many desire to quit. Smokers have been marginalized, demonized, and segregated out of society...there was just a good article in the magazine suppliment to the Boston Globe that dealt with the subject, I will see if I can find a link....but apparently the head of the BOH here is hoping that by 2025 no on will smoke at all.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Nobody answered my questions about chewing tobacco.

If the law actually means no tobacco products at all, and not just tobacco products which create smoke, then this law is not about protecting people nearby, it's a nanny state law.

I don't imagine the teetotalers want to answer that question because it shreds their credibility.