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Borderlands 2... another AAA title bites the FXAA bullet......

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SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
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FXAA may not offer the same quality as traditional anti-aliasing like multi-sampling or super-sampling, while moving with-in the environment, but considering deferred rendering, in cases, there hasn't been anything to enhance and why MLAA and FXAA are very welcomed over-all to me.

Three ares worth noting for strengths of MLAA and FXAA: compatibility that some gamers may appreciate -- small hit -- works in conjunction with other enhancements.

There may be a forced on multi-sampling setting available from the IHV's -- possibly down-the-road?

Ideally, would like to see developers spend more resources, if possible, to bring more anti-aliasing flexibility to the PC gamer. However, this doesn't mean FXAA or MLAA is crap -- turn it off if one doesn't like it.
 

Grimshad

Junior Member
Sep 17, 2012
14
0
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I didn't read the entire thread, but gearbox has guaranteed that the PC version of the game will get the PC treatment including AA.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
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I can't think of any game that I've enjoyed their FXAA implementation.
Diablo 3 - I was using a *.dll hack before AMD officially supported CCC force. And I think nVidia users relied on NVInspector.
Guild Wars 2- absolutely atrocious with FXAA. It blurs the foreground while the background remains jagged out of their mind. And I hate how the engine completely blocks any kind of override to the point of objects not loading.
The Secret World - TXAA was slightly better than FXAA, it had a tad little more blur but at least the crawlies in the distance were pretty much gone. I'd take Blur with no crawlies versus just plain Blur.

I'll save jugement on BL2, with it's comic book style artwork, I have high hopes the Blur will blend in ala a cinematic style - wait and see.
 

N4g4rok

Senior member
Sep 21, 2011
285
0
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Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is wrong with FXAA?

and what SHOULD i be using?
 

Grooveriding

Diamond Member
Dec 25, 2008
9,082
1,224
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I thought this game was going to support TXAA?
Nvidia originally said it would be in the game but then retracted on that. It's unfortunate that more and more developers are going the lazy way and only offering post-aa options.

It is nothing in terms of development for them to do this, compared to the effort required to implement MSAA into a game using deferred shading. It's likely comparatively as easy as it is for an end user to drop in the .dll files to use SMAA in titles.

I'll just play BL2 with it turned off. Hopefully the bit from BL1 or another bit allows true anti aliasing to be forced.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is wrong with FXAA?

and what SHOULD i be using?
Nothing if you're not an IQ elitist who can't find the sharpen options.

If you buy hardware that is outside your resolution and the games themselves, you need advanced resource hogging AA options otherwise there is no point to your hardware.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
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Nothing if you're not an IQ elitist who can't find the sharpen options.

If you buy hardware that is outside your resolution and the games themselves, you need advanced resource hogging AA options otherwise there is no point to your hardware.
I find that comment a little amusing since I visit a forum that are IQ fanatics (not gaming mind you, cinema) and the first suggestion to any user is put sharpness to zero.

Experimenting with sharpness, I feel it adds to much artifacting to the image. You can some get crazy haloing in lights and in some textures a grain/noise distortion.

In games such as GW2, I've just accepted the jaggies since FXAA really is a terrible option (my opinion of course.) After a while you get use to the jaggies, but I guess the same for the blur.

Pick your poison.
 

BallaTheFeared

Diamond Member
Nov 15, 2010
8,115
0
71
I find that comment a little amusing since I visit a forum that are IQ fanatics (not gaming mind you, cinema) and the first suggestion to any user is put sharpness to zero.

Experimenting with sharpness, I feel it adds to much artifacting to the image. You can some get crazy haloing in lights and in some textures a grain/noise distortion.

In games such as GW2, I've just accepted the jaggies since FXAA really is a terrible option (my opinion of course.) After a while you get use to the jaggies, but I guess the same for the blur.

Pick your poison.
I feel that way myself, too much sharpening is a bad thing. The idea is the sharpen enough to offset the inherited blurring caused by FXAA.

I found the settings I posted before did just that, too much sharpening was occurring it made the game unnaturally sharp - work in progress.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
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I feel that way myself, too much sharpening is a bad thing. The idea is the sharpen enough to offset the inherited blurring caused by FXAA.

I found the settings I posted before did just that, too much sharpening was occurring it made the game unnaturally sharp - work in progress.
I wish they'd just allowed overrides, but because of their "no mods" stand, they don't allow anything to access the game code. So I don't think we'll ever get proper force options through the drivers.

Oh well, game is still tons of fun. Fun > IQ.
 

Yuriman

Diamond Member
Jun 25, 2004
5,530
141
106
Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is wrong with FXAA?

and what SHOULD i be using?
Comparing BallaTheFeared's screenshots side by side, FXAA helps on objects in the background like trees and bridges, but it makes a blurry mess of the fine details in the foreground such as the character's armor and weapon designs.


MSAA doesn't do this, but has a larger performance hit.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
1
0
Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is wrong with FXAA?

and what SHOULD i be using?
First, This isn't a deal breaker for me, I loved BL1 and will likely love BL2. However, MSAA is higher quality than FXAA - and MSAA also can be converted to SGSSAA with transparency SS as well. That is generally not the case with FXAA. FXAA is better than nothing, but it can be blurry at times.

I guess the main complaint is that people want a choice - it is somewhat disappointing to see many developers go the quick and easy route. Its whatever though, like I said this isn't a deal breaker for me, I was a big fan of borderlands 1 and will definitely be playing BL2 tonight.
 

cmdrdredd

Lifer
Dec 12, 2001
26,867
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Does that take care of texture shimmering?
No but there are people who wouldn't see it unless it is pointed out to them or they are specifically trying to notice it. During gameplay the last thing I do is look at the edges of objects and stare at the edges moving.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
126
No but there are people who wouldn't see it unless it is pointed out to them or they are specifically trying to notice it. During gameplay the last thing I do is look at the edges of objects and stare at the edges moving.
Unfortunately, there are also people who don't openly look for it, but it is so obvious you have to fight to ignore it.

GW2 is a good example. On both cards, the crawlies are goddamn visible. Sometimes I don't even get how they are so bad, it's like the devs did it on purpose haha.

If I weren't scared of getting banned, I'd try the SMAA injectors. But in the end, I get the feeling that's just a band-aid fix. I need to switch my monitors so I can use the high resolution/downscale method.
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
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Imho,

Fidelity enhancements are subjective based on tastes and tolerances, which may differ -- ten posts -- possibly ten different views. The key for me is the importance of flexibility so a gamer may find the right balance for their subjective taste and tolerance.

Fidelity is very important to me because I believe it improves upon the gaming experience and improves realism and immersion.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
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Fidelity enhancements are subjective based on tastes and tolerances, which may differ -- ten posts -- possibly ten different views. The key for me is the importance of flexibility so a gamer may find the right balance for their subjective taste and tolerance.

Fidelity is very important to me because I believe it improves upon the gaming experience and improves realism and immersion.
Agree, and it seems as of late the devs are doing a great job limiting our options. If Bioshock Infinite is locked to FXAA/MLAA only - I'm done, I'll be gaming on Intel HD Graphics ONLY!
 

moonbogg

Lifer
Jan 8, 2011
10,200
2,039
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Does this game look the same as the first one? Because a GTX260 was overkill for that game. BL1 was fun for a week or so, but I couldn't finish it as the boredom started to hurt my brain.
 

SirPauly

Diamond Member
Apr 28, 2009
5,187
1
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Agree, and it seems as of late the devs are doing a great job limiting our options. If Bioshock Infinite is locked to FXAA/MLAA only - I'm done, I'll be gaming on Intel HD Graphics ONLY!
I believe deferred rendering had a lot to do with that and a trade-off. Personally look towards IHV's also to help improve the gaming experiences for their customers as well, with innovative techniques like TXAA, MLAA, FXAA, forward+ rendering, offering transparency and super-sampled and also forced control panel abilities to raise the bar.
 

blackened23

Diamond Member
Jul 26, 2011
8,548
1
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Does this game look the same as the first one? Because a GTX260 was overkill for that game. BL1 was fun for a week or so, but I couldn't finish it as the boredom started to hurt my brain.
Borderlands is a co-op game. There is nothing more fun than BL co op.

That said, I enjoyed the single player as well.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
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I believe deferred rendering had a lot to do with that and a trade-off. Personally look towards IHV's also to help improve the gaming experiences for their customers as well, with innovative techniques like TXAA, MLAA, FXAA, forward+ rendering, offering transparency and super-sampled and also forced control panel abilities to raise the bar.
Sure, the render method played a part. But Rocksteady pulled it off. Frankly put, they aren't as well known as Gearbox or Blizzard.

Makes you think.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
Sure, the render method played a part. But Rocksteady pulled it off. Frankly put, they aren't as well known as Gearbox or Blizzard.

Makes you think.
Yes. I remember the time MSAA was only available on nVidia-cards. Yes they really "pulled it off".
 

ViRGE

Elite Member, Moderator Emeritus
Oct 9, 1999
31,516
165
106
Nvidia originally said it would be in the game but then retracted on that. It's unfortunate that more and more developers are going the lazy way and only offering post-aa options.

It is nothing in terms of development for them to do this, compared to the effort required to implement MSAA into a game using deferred shading. It's likely comparatively as easy as it is for an end user to drop in the .dll files to use SMAA in titles.

I'll just play BL2 with it turned off. Hopefully the bit from BL1 or another bit allows true anti aliasing to be forced.
I don't know how BL2 ever got listed as a TXAA title in the first place. We've known for ages that BL2 is a DX9 game, and you can't implement TXAA on DX9 because it lacks the custom sample resolve pattern functionality that TXAA relies on.
 

thelastjuju

Senior member
Nov 6, 2011
444
2
0
No AA?

Might as well be gaming on a friggin console, while upscaling to HD too! At least the blurryness introduced from the upscale will mask some of the jaggies.

Cranking up the AA (true AA forms, not blur filters masquerading as hybrid AA) is one of the most important aspects of cutting edge visuals.
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
560
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Makes one think? Can you expand on that?
Why the other devs aren't doing it (is it a time restraint, QA issue, etc.) Gearbox made a nice pitch to PC gamers that this time they are doing things right (not sure if you read the Claptrap love letter). While I'm not scoffing at their efforts (those functions are all welcomed) just sucks to see they missed the AA bullet point.

Yes. I remember the time MSAA was only available on nVidia-cards. Yes they really "pulled it off".
Really? I remember I just changed my ID code to an nVidia product and MSAA worked on my Radeon HD 5870. It only took me 1 minute.

Gotta love the PC community. :D
 

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