Border agents can search/copy contents of laptops w/out cause, federal judge says

[shira]

There's also corporate espionage (another form of IP) and child porn etc. I think there are many, many things that could be smuggled across borders with a HDD.

Edit: Forgot to add with the knowledge that the NSA is tracking/capturing anything and everything that goes across fiber or airwave transporting by HDD is the obvious work around and would therefore be an obvious focal point.

Fern

It's just silly to make this type of argument. People don't need to bring physical media through customs to be able to smuggle digital contraband into the U.S. In fact, it's much, much safer to just send strongly encrypted files from one secure email account to another.

As I argued earlier, if a computer can be seized and searched, and it's digital contents copied - without any suspicion whatsoever that the computer contains child porn - all in the name of fighting child porn, then why restrict this egregious violation of the 4th amendment to airports and border-crossings? Yeah, let's allow law enforcement to stop anyone with a computer or other digital device at any time at any place and seize their equipment. Hell, let's allow law enforcement to break into anyone's house and search their computers. What's the 4th amendment when we can fight crime a little more effectively?

 

[Newbian]

Hell, let's allow law enforcement to break into anyone's house and search their computers. What's the 4th amendment when we can fight crime a little more effectively?

Oh you... if you think they have to break in your house to access your computer these days.

 

[Newbian]

wonder how the TSA would deal with a truecrypt container that needs a passphrase and a keyfile to decrypt the contents if the file is at home

Simple... confiscate your computer as they are allowed to.

 

[shira]

Oh you... if you think they have to break in your house to access your computer these days.

In that case, CBP agents never need to seize anyone's computer, do they? Problem solved.

 

[WackyDan]

See, I would think that would be worse. Agents would seldom spend the time to look through your personal files, but an encrypted hard drive would trigger interest.

My work laptop is mandated to be encrypted. If they want to impound it... have at it, but I'm pretty sure I'd get it back in short order... A US based company of that size has some clout to throw around.

 

[werepossum]

My work laptop is mandated to be encrypted. If they want to impound it... have at it, but I'm pretty sure I'd get it back in short order... A US based company of that size has some clout to throw around.

I can certainly see how that would be an advantage, assuming your employer is current with his protection money.

 

[tommo123]

Simple... confiscate your computer as they are allowed to.

wouln't help them get the info. besides, they'd only need the .tc file.

in the end, i'd just leave my FTP running and download the files on the other side.

it is hilarious though that Americans have this pavlovian response and chant USA and mention their "freedom" but when i went to China, Cuba etc i had no such concerns about my rights and freedoms. how odd that the united states is now below China in some regards

 

[WackyDan]

I can certainly see how that would be an advantage, assuming your employer is current with his protection money.

$100+ billion dollar a year tech company. I can not by the policy I have signed off on release my credentials to anyone other than my employer and there are even specific scenarios we are trained on internally where I can't even do that.

Have a backup that is always as current as the last time I was on the VPN... So if I never get the fucker back that means a shiny new laptop for me and all my data.

I would have to think that if the U.S. Gov't can't prove a case for holding the encrypted system then they would have to return it eventually.

 

[Zodiark1593]

Simple... confiscate your computer as they are allowed to.

Since US laws apparently don't apply, then I'm allowed to smash said laptop over the head of the TSA agent. (A heavy laptop is quite ideal here, especially something like the Alienware M18x. )

 

[rommelrommel]

Since US laws apparently don't apply, then I'm allowed to smash said laptop over the head of the TSA agent. (A heavy laptop is quite ideal here, especially something like the Alienware M18x. )

Make sure to run back into the transit lounge and then yell "neener neener neener!"

 

[Tom]

My work laptop is mandated to be encrypted. If they want to impound it... have at it, but I'm pretty sure I'd get it back in short order... A US based company of that size has some clout to throw around.

No US company is going to instruct their employees to not cooperate with Customs.

 

[Fayd]

I'm not sure what you mean by "digital contraband." Sure, people can have pirated copies of software or movies on their laptops, but that's pretty small potatoes, and not something border agents are going to be particularly focused on; certainly not something substantial enough to justify such a violation of the ". . . right of the people to be secure in . . . their effects."

Yeah, child porn would be of general interest to law enforcement types, but that's not a "contraband" issue; and if seizing a computer and checking/copying its private data without a warrant or reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing can be justified as lawful in the name of fighting child porn, then it could be done to ANYONE with a computer at any time, not just when people cross the border. In fact, the courts will never cross THAT line, as it would make a total mockery of the 4th Amendment.

they've already made a mockery of the 4th amendment.

 

[werepossum]

$100+ billion dollar a year tech company. I can not by the policy I have signed off on release my credentials to anyone other than my employer and there are even specific scenarios we are trained on internally where I can't even do that.

Have a backup that is always as current as the last time I was on the VPN... So if I never get the fucker back that means a shiny new laptop for me and all my data.

I would have to think that if the U.S. Gov't can't prove a case for holding the encrypted system then they would have to return it eventually.

Federal government doesn't really have to do anything it does not want to do, but I suspect they would, unless you pissed them off.

Back on Tom's side, we should remember that the twentieth hijacker had the entire plan and contact info on his laptop when apprehended. US authorities decided they did not have probable cause to examine it. Had they decided differently, the others could have been rolled up in a day or two. No 9/11 attack, no invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, thousands of Americans and tens of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanistanis still alive. This is less one-sided than most 4th Amendment issues.

 

[BoberFett]

wouln't help them get the info. besides, they'd only need the .tc file.

in the end, i'd just leave my FTP running and download the files on the other side.

it is hilarious though that Americans have this pavlovian response and chant USA and mention their "freedom" but when i went to China, Cuba etc i had no such concerns about my rights and freedoms. how odd that the united states is now below China in some regards

It's quite disgusting, isn't it?

One of the songs I hate more than any other is that Lee Greenwood abomination, Proud To Be An American. Anytime some slackjawed moron gets all teary eyed and patriotic about that song, I have to resist the urge to curb stomp them.

 

[tommo123]

Simple... confiscate your computer as they are allowed to.

It's quite disgusting, isn't it?

One of the songs I hate more than any other is that Lee Greenwood abomination, Proud To Be An American. Anytime some slackjawed moron gets all teary eyed and patriotic about that song, I have to resist the urge to curb stomp them.

oh fuck off, i have that song in my head now. off to listen to some bon jovi classics instead.

side note - US companies have to obey US law and do some heinous shit. is there anything technically stopping any of them moving their HQ to canada?

 

[Vic]

The American people say they want secure borders. This is part of what secure borders look like.

 

[werepossum]

The American people say they want secure borders. This is part of what secure borders look like.

LOL The only part we get.

 

[Scotteq]

The American people say they want secure borders. This is part of what secure borders look like.

Pretty sure when people are going on about Secure Borders, they're talking about the thousands of miles of unguarded territory between the US, Mexico, and Canukistan. Not so much ID/Passport carrying people at the airport. There are places where you can literally drive a truck through 'security'. After all, hundreds of thousands of people and uncounted tons of drugs get through on a continuous basis. Pretty sure even a mildly determined terrorist would find entering the country a rather trivial event.

and Honestly - If they really wanted the airports to be secure, they'd start searching cars coming off the highways. Or at least not gather travelers into large, tightly packed groups at the ticket counters and before passing through security. That tells me the Government is more concerned about the expensive airplanes than their citizens. I mean, who gives a shit if a couple assholes with bombs strapped to their chests take out a few hundred passengers. The Airbus is saved!!

On the other hand... I'm a sarcastic bastard even on the best of days, so...

 

[Vic]

LOL The only part we get.

You mean the only part that might affect you personally?

 

[werepossum]

You mean the only part that might affect you personally?

I've never flown internationally so it doesn't actually affect me.