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Bombing outside mosque in Najaf, Iraq...*Breaking News*

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BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Let's look at this situation rationally. We are talking about a pro-Iranian Ayatollah advocating Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Is that what we want? No.
We would probably be killing this guy and his supporters at some point anyways, so this saves us the hassle.
So would it be OK for someone to kill Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell when they advocate Christianity over the policies of the US government here at home?
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Let's look at this situation rationally. We are talking about a pro-Iranian Ayatollah advocating Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Is that what we want? No.
We would probably be killing this guy and his supporters at some point anyways, so this saves us the hassle.
So would it be OK for someone to kill Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell when they advocate Christianity over the policies of the US government here at home?
Do Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell say that we should rescind our constitution and employ a theocracy? Do they arm their followers, and conduct violence against, say, the unitarians?

Apples and oranges. Even though you'd probably support the murder of the above mentioned people if it supported your agenda.
 

SuperTool

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
14,000
0
0
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Let's look at this situation rationally. We are talking about a pro-Iranian Ayatollah advocating Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Is that what we want? No.
We would probably be killing this guy and his supporters at some point anyways, so this saves us the hassle.
So would it be OK for someone to kill Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell when they advocate Christianity over the policies of the US government here at home?
Is Falwell and Robertson advocating a Christian revolution?
If the extremists are killing each other, they aren't killing Americans.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: Gaard
<<What never ceases to amaze me, is the liberal defense of islam, the largest and most anti-free speech, anti-woman, anti-freedom of religion/separation of church and state, anti-semtic, anti-human rights religion on the planet.>>

Liberal defense of Islam?

Serious question...Why do you think so much of the world population practices this religion when it's so wrong?
Serious answer with a serious question. Why is mormonism the fastest growing religion in Utah? (actually, I think it might be the fastest growing religion in the US).

And yes, the liberals constantly defend islam. Because it suits their current agenda. Do I need to provide like 1,000 links?
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: Gaard
<<What never ceases to amaze me, is the liberal defense of islam, the largest and most anti-free speech, anti-woman, anti-freedom of religion/separation of church and state, anti-semtic, anti-human rights religion on the planet.>>

Liberal defense of Islam?

Serious question...Why do you think so much of the world population practices this religion when it's so wrong?
Serious answer with a serious question. Why is mormonism the fastest growing religion in Utah? (actually, I think it might be the fastest growing religion in the US).

And yes, the liberals constantly defend islam. Because it suits their current agenda. Do I need to provide like 1,000 links?
900 will do. ;)


I don't know the answer to the Mormon question. I was honestly interested in why you think so much of the world's population is practicing a 'wrong' religion. Obviously, you don't believe me. That's cool. Adios.

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
I defend freedom of religion. Or freedom to have no religion. Freedom basically.

As for Islam there are those in every religion who use the word of their God to their own ends. The Christians had their day and they may very well again. Don't confuse the works of man with the works of God. People can screw up just about anything. Even God.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Let's look at this situation rationally. We are talking about a pro-Iranian Ayatollah advocating Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Is that what we want? No.
We would probably be killing this guy and his supporters at some point anyways, so this saves us the hassle.
So would it be OK for someone to kill Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell when they advocate Christianity over the policies of the US government here at home?
Do Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell say that we should rescind our constitution and employ a theocracy? Do they arm their followers, and conduct violence against, say, the unitarians?

Apples and oranges. Even though you'd probably support the murder of the above mentioned people if it supported your agenda.
Ah, you're so funny Alchemize. Always trying to stir things up. But seriously, you're coming off very anti-Islam. Was that your intention? All religions have had their problems throughout history. None of them are perfect. Right now, you're right to a degree, Islam is going through some inner-turmoil. I don't think you can honestly say the majority of Muslims are fanatical or extremist. There's definitely a percentage, but I truly think it's a small minority. Plus a lot of the problems in the Islamic world can be attributed to societal and cultural issues rather than simply blaming Islam.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Let's look at this situation rationally. We are talking about a pro-Iranian Ayatollah advocating Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Is that what we want? No.
We would probably be killing this guy and his supporters at some point anyways, so this saves us the hassle.
So would it be OK for someone to kill Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell when they advocate Christianity over the policies of the US government here at home?
Do Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell say that we should rescind our constitution and employ a theocracy? Do they arm their followers, and conduct violence against, say, the unitarians?

Apples and oranges. Even though you'd probably support the murder of the above mentioned people if it supported your agenda.
I don't support murdering anyone. You're confusing me with the Bush administration.

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,489
0
0
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Let's look at this situation rationally. We are talking about a pro-Iranian Ayatollah advocating Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Is that what we want? No.
We would probably be killing this guy and his supporters at some point anyways, so this saves us the hassle.
So would it be OK for someone to kill Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell when they advocate Christianity over the policies of the US government here at home?
Do Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell say that we should rescind our constitution and employ a theocracy? Do they arm their followers, and conduct violence against, say, the unitarians?

Apples and oranges. Even though you'd probably support the murder of the above mentioned people if it supported your agenda.
Ah, you're so funny Alchemize. Always trying to stir things up. But seriously, you're coming off very anti-Islam. Was that your intention? All religions have had their problems throughout history. None of them are perfect. Right now, you're right to a degree, Islam is going through some inner-turmoil. I don't think you can honestly say the majority of Muslims are fanatical or extremist. There's definitely a percentage, but I truly think it's a small minority. Plus a lot of the problems in the Islamic world can be attributed to societal and cultural issues rather than simply blaming Islam.
I take back my attack on BOBDN...I was thinking of BarneyFife when I said that and his celebration of death

Of course all religions have had there problems in history. Does that lessen Islam's problems? I didn't say the majority of the worlds Muslims are fanatical or extremist. I said the majority of them support fanatical or extremist viewpoints. Can you discount the violence in Kashmir? In Indonesia? In the middle east? Can you discount wahhabism? Are there not mosque after mosque, Iman after Iman, preaching hatred in the middle east, and around the world? Can the belief that a woman is a sub-standard member of society be blamed anywhere other than Islam? Doesn't the hatred of Jews fill their textbooks? They teach these beliefs to their children under the auspice of schooling...sick.

There are plenty of oppressive governments with poor uneducated people. There are plenty of religions that want to oppress others. Islam just is doing it on a global scale like no other, and is tied at the hip with violence.

If I come across as anti-Islam, so be it. The religion has been hijacked, much like other religions have in the past (Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Church of England, etc.). But it is 2003...what is their excuse?
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: BOBDN
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Let's look at this situation rationally. We are talking about a pro-Iranian Ayatollah advocating Islamic Revolution in Iraq. Is that what we want? No.
We would probably be killing this guy and his supporters at some point anyways, so this saves us the hassle.
So would it be OK for someone to kill Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell when they advocate Christianity over the policies of the US government here at home?
Do Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell say that we should rescind our constitution and employ a theocracy? Do they arm their followers, and conduct violence against, say, the unitarians?

Apples and oranges. Even though you'd probably support the murder of the above mentioned people if it supported your agenda.
Ah, you're so funny Alchemize. Always trying to stir things up. But seriously, you're coming off very anti-Islam. Was that your intention? All religions have had their problems throughout history. None of them are perfect. Right now, you're right to a degree, Islam is going through some inner-turmoil. I don't think you can honestly say the majority of Muslims are fanatical or extremist. There's definitely a percentage, but I truly think it's a small minority. Plus a lot of the problems in the Islamic world can be attributed to societal and cultural issues rather than simply blaming Islam.
I take back my attack on BOBDN...I was thinking of BarneyFife when I said that and his celebration of death

Of course all religions have had there problems in history. Does that lessen Islam's problems? I didn't say the majority of the worlds Muslims are fanatical or extremist. I said the majority of them support fanatical or extremist viewpoints. Can you discount the violence in Kashmir? In Indonesia? In the middle east? Can you discount wahhabism? Are there not mosque after mosque, Iman after Iman, preaching hatred in the middle east, and around the world? Can the belief that a woman is a sub-standard member of society be blamed anywhere other than Islam? Doesn't the hatred of Jews fill their textbooks? They teach these beliefs to their children under the auspice of schooling...sick.

There are plenty of oppressive governments with poor uneducated people. There are plenty of religions that want to oppress others. Islam just is doing it on a global scale like no other, and is tied at the hip with violence.

If I come across as anti-Islam, so be it. The religion has been hijacked, much like other religions have in the past (Spanish Inquisition, Crusades, Church of England, etc.). But it is 2003...what is their excuse?
Let me try to explain this to you. Just as Bush is learning you can't take back an attack. Better to not attack until attacked in the first place.

I'm sitting back and letting people here attack me all day long. Nothing has changed on these forums other than the people who suggested the changes have gone right back to the same BS.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
68,244
3,337
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: alchemize
Christian fundamentalists don't use car-bombs, suicide bombers, or call for annihilation of entire races of people. Even when they get really edgy. David Koresh is about the closest christian equivalence to what is going on in the islamic world.

Out of 1.3 billion muslims, a majority refuse to believe the truth. I guess gallup is part of a vast right wing christian conspiracy?

You live in a dream world. Islam has been hijacked, and it's followers are doing little to stop it. Most are falling in line. Baaah.

SO, they might not all be fanatics, but a majority of them support a fanatical belief.
Bush asked the whole world to take sides. I guess they picked the "wrong" one, hmmm? That's what happens when you cast the entire planet in black or white. Maybe a few hellfire missiles and unilateral attacks will make them rethink the error of their ways...

edit/spelling
Yes, I guess they did. Too bad for them. That's what happens when you put religion over logical rational thought.

What never ceases to amaze me, is the liberal defense of islam, the largest and most anti-free speech, anti-woman, anti-freedom of religion/separation of church and state, anti-semtic, anti-human rights religion on the planet. I'm pretty sure that you can go through every single liberal value, and not find a single one on the list of the general list of islamic values. Sickening.

Why do the liberals do this? Well, you can't possibly side with the conservatives on this one, can you? As moonbeam says...you become what you fear.
If people were not so adamant on Islams "evils", there would be no need for a defense. The Holocaust ways heavily on the minds of many, how a Civilized Christian Nation could commit such heinous acts and feel perfectly justified in doing so. You need to discuss the issue more rationally.
 

Tom

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
13,293
1
76
"L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. occupation's coordinator for Iraq, was out of the country on vacation and had no plans to return early because of the bombing. " -Reuters

What is the deal with the Bush administration and vacations ??

It almost seems to be a political tactic of this administration to take vacations to imply that everything is under control. I don't mean just Iraq but other foreign and domestic matters. I wonder if Bush jr remembers that one of the reason his Dad got turned out was because he liked to take vacations and pretend everything was a-ok.



 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
71
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. occupation's coordinator for Iraq, was out of the country on vacation and had no plans to return early because of the bombing. " -Reuters

What is the deal with the Bush administration and vacations ??

It almost seems to be a political tactic of this administration to take vacations to imply that everything is under control. I don't mean just Iraq but other foreign and domestic matters. I wonder if Bush jr remembers that one of the reason his Dad got turned out was because he liked to take vacations and pretend everything was a-ok.
How long had he been working before the vacation?
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: Tabb
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. occupation's coordinator for Iraq, was out of the country on vacation and had no plans to return early because of the bombing. " -Reuters

What is the deal with the Bush administration and vacations ??

It almost seems to be a political tactic of this administration to take vacations to imply that everything is under control. I don't mean just Iraq but other foreign and domestic matters. I wonder if Bush jr remembers that one of the reason his Dad got turned out was because he liked to take vacations and pretend everything was a-ok.
How long had he been working before the vacation?

Bremmer replaced Jay Garner last spring, around May if I remember correctly. I found some interesting info while trying to get the exact date. Did anyone know Bremmer was assistant to Secretary of State George Schultz? And before that he was Director of Bechtel? He is still senior counsel to Bechtel's board?

This just keeps getting worse.

I found info at the following link. Believe me I was just looking for the date Bremmer took over. I Googled "l paul bremmer replaced in iraq" and came up with this among other returns.

Edit to add

It was in May I haven't found the exact date yet.

So I guess as the US leader in Iraq you get a vacation after less than four months as part of your benefit package. :)

I edit to add

Lewis Paul Bremer III (born September 30, 1941) was named Director of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance for Post-war Iraq following the 2003 invasion of Iraq, to replace Jay Garner, on May 6, 2003 as overseer of the 2003 occupation of Iraq. He arrived in Iraq on May 11.

L. Paul Bremer - Wikpedia

Edit

I haven't been able to find any corroborating info on Bremer's connection with Bechtel other than the one link I posted above.

More info on Bremer for those who are interested here.
 

LilBlinbBlahIce

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2001
1,837
0
0
Originally posted by: Dead Parrot Sketch
"L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. occupation's coordinator for Iraq, was out of the country on vacation and had no plans to return early because of the bombing. " -Reuters

What is the deal with the Bush administration and vacations ??

It almost seems to be a political tactic of this administration to take vacations to imply that everything is under control. I don't mean just Iraq but other foreign and domestic matters. I wonder if Bush jr remembers that one of the reason his Dad got turned out was because he liked to take vacations and pretend everything was a-ok.
Didn't John Galt wet his panties when Chirac went on vacation during the heatwave that gripped France? But I guess it's ok to go on vacation in the middle of a war than during natural weather phenomena. I guess it's a Bush admin. tradition to be on vacation... oh I mean "working" vacation.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
19 Arrested in Bombing of Mosque in Iraq

<snip>
Police have arrested 19 men - many of them foreigners and all with admitted links to al-Qaida - in the car bombing of the Imam Ali shrine in the holy Shiite city of Najaf
....

Two Iraqis and two Saudis grabbed shortly after the Friday attack gave information leading to the arrest of the others, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity. They include two Kuwaitis and six Palestinians with Jordanian passports with the remainder Iraqis and Saudis
</snip>

Interesting development.

CkG
 

phillyTIM

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2001
1,940
10
81
Let this bombing be the warning shot to the Bush Regime to get out of Iraq before a revolt takes place.

While they are arresting some Al Queada "links", word on the street (according to an MSNBC reporter) is that this bombing was instigated by the American troops, and is causing related disturbance in the people of Iraq.

I'd hope this is the beginning of the end for the Bush Regime in Iraq.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
From the very beginning the Bush administration was warned. Winning the "war" against an Iraqi army with ancient equipment and troops who suffered through twelve years of sanctions would be the east part.

Was there anyone who didn't know the US armed forces wouldn't annihilate the rag tag Iraqi forces?

The Bush administration was warned the real job would begin after the "end of major military operations."

Bush isn't asking them to "bring it on" any more in Iraq. Now he's begging the UN to bring it on instead.

What a mess.

Still Time to Avoid Failure

Does anyone think the Bush braintrust will wake up and change course?

Will the American people wake up and exact a price for Bush's folly?
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: phillyTIM
Let this bombing be the warning shot to the Bush Regime to get out of Iraq before a revolt takes place.

While they are arresting some Al Queada "links", word on the street (according to an MSNBC reporter) is that this bombing was instigated by the American troops, and is causing related disturbance in the people of Iraq.

I'd hope this is the beginning of the end for the Bush Regime in Iraq.
What will pulling troops out because of this help? I really wish to know what YOU think it'll accomplish. Do you really think they'll all just play nice if we leave?

CkG
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Pulling the troops out now would only encourage the terrorists.

As for why Philly might want to encourage them, ask him.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
We are there. If we pull out it must be all the way. We need about 100000 more there from all nations. Especially, Muslim nations and lots of PR.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,153
3,856
126
Perhaps Republicans and the Republican party should pay for the war with a Republican only tax and American business there donate their profits and wages above civil servant levels to the pacification effort as charity.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Perhaps Republicans and the Republican party should pay for the war with a Republican only tax and American business there donate their profits and wages above civil servant levels to the pacification effort as charity.
Well, shouldn't the party in power and the registered party folks do the fighting as well? Heck, I'll chip in a buck or two and watch the sights from the sideline.. Donate to the war by the business owners... there is no profit in that and Business exists to make a profit... War is good business... there is profit to be had there...

 

HombrePequeno

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
4,657
0
0
Just posting an Iraqi's (not mine ;) ) view on this:

"Look regardless of what he stood for and the fact he and his party are very good buddies with Iran, the significance and the gravity of what happened is not to be overlooked. I agree with you, if SCIRI had its way we would end up as an Iran clone. But he is a religious leader, he is a ?Marji?i? and at least for the moment they are playing by the rules. They are adopting a more lenient line, they talk about a constitution and they have Adil abdul-Mahdi who is a very clever man, the people who are behind the curtains are always more interesting than the actual puppets. And if we had abdul-Mahdis in all the religious parties believe we would not have had so much to fear, these are people who know how to walk the narrow path.

With the assassination of Mohammed Baqir al-Hakim the SCIRI leadership has been put in a very difficult position, they have to bring their militia into the play now. Their followers demand it and this is something abdul-Mahdi was visibly agonized about during today?s press conference. We all realize that if Badr Brigade got on the streets of Najaf the other factions will see no reason to send their militias down as well and this is never good, they will start fighting for turf and places like Najaf and Karbala should not become fighting grounds. I hope the Shia in Iraq, their leaderships, are wise enough to realize these holy cities should stay a symbol of their unity, their united struggle.

Most dangerously it will give, the assassination already has given as excuse to the more dangerous Muqtada al-Sadr to get his own militia together, he has been assembling one for quite a while now [Imam Mahdi?s Army] and these are the people we should all worry about, he is pissed off because he has been booted out of the Governing Council and since he is not a Hawza religious scholar he has no power without having his own bunch of thugs. The statements which were spread around today are using the death of Hakim to put more blame on the Americans. Although we know very well that Muqtada al-sadr would not mind getting al-Hakim out of the game. The demonstrators were asking for the security issue to be handed over to Iraqis believe me we do not want to be guarded by sadr?s thugs, their Friday Imams belive that women should not even go to shops and their [groups of virtuous] have been behind the bombing of shops selling alcohol and behind the threats to cinema owners.

Beside the significance of assassinating an Ayatollah these fvckers did it in front of an entrance to Imam Ali?s shrine. What idiot would do that? It is the same question everyone was asking about the bombing of the UN building, what sort of person would do this sort of thing? There is nothing sacred anymore. And right after a Friday prayer. There is just so much to this. Hundreds of people beside the Ayatollah, it is totally devastating.
Yes I know they would want to have an Islamic state here but they are much mellower than the Sadr and his ?militant Hawza?, the importance of SCIRI is to counter balance. They have agreed to play the political game and abdul-Aziz al-Hakim (the Ayatollah?s brother) is on the Governing Council, isn?t he? They are working with the Americans.

Whoever did this is pure evil. The UN, an assassination in front of Imam Ali?s shrine. You wonder what will come next. If you ask me I think it will be media. Al-Jazeera I getting threatened quite often, and if you are moving with journalists the scariest thing that could happen is if people think you are from Jazeera. Al-Arabiya reporters were attacked in Najaf today and a couple of Reuter?s guys who the crowd thought were from Jazeera almost got in serious trouble. I got called an American intelligence agent and a collaborator with the Zionist agents, which kind of freaked me out."

Where is Raed?
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Perhaps Republicans and the Republican party should pay for the war with a Republican only tax and American business there donate their profits and wages above civil servant levels to the pacification effort as charity.
Well, shouldn't the party in power and the registered party folks do the fighting as well? Heck, I'll chip in a buck or two and watch the sights from the sideline.. Donate to the war by the business owners... there is no profit in that and Business exists to make a profit... War is good business... there is profit to be had there...
Moonbeam, that sounds like a fair plan to resolve this dispute.

And hell yes, LR. I'd buy tickets to watch Bush in his tight little Air Force jump suit go over there and do some real fighting instead of just a PR landing on the Lincoln.

I wonder if he'd tell them to "Bring it on" when it's his ass on the line. :disgust:
 

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