Bloomberg: Solar and Wind Just Passed Another Big Turning Point

[jackstar7]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ind-reach-a-big-renewables-turning-point-bnef

Wind power is now the cheapest electricity to produce in both Germany and the U.K., even without government subsidies, according to a new analysis by Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF). It's the first time that threshold has been crossed by a G7 economy.1

But that's less interesting than what just happened in the U.S.

Interesting. Energy is a major concern. Glad to see innovation answering.

 

[Blue_Max]

One of the biggest drawbacks to our entire electric energy system is the use-it-or-lose-it nature of electricity itself. I remember there was some great discussion on city-scale energy storage technologies... I hope to see that progress as well.

And before anyone complains about wind turbines killing pretty little birdies, I should dig up the research showing how many birds are killed by turbines and other man-made causes, and domestic cats. (The cats outnumbered everything by a huge margin! Like several thousand times as many.)

 

[Mandres]

All we need is the next evolutionary step in batteries and the whole world changes overnight.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

All we need is the next evolutionary step in batteries and the whole world changes overnight.

Or practical fusion

I have an structural engineer coming out soon to verify our solar panels placement & verify the roof is strong enough for it.

 

[dainthomas]

And before anyone complains about wind turbines killing pretty little birdies, I should dig up the research showing how many birds are killed by turbines and other man-made causes, and domestic cats. (The cats outnumbered everything by a huge margin! Like several thousand times as many.)

Cats don't kill raptors (the main victims of wind turbines). Although it would be funny watching one try. :biggrin:

The only thing capable of replacing fossil fuels for energy production is nuclear (fission or fusion). Nothing else will ever be close, for a multitude of reasons.

 

[zinfamous]

And before anyone complains about wind turbines killing pretty little birdies, I should dig up the research showing how many birds are killed by turbines and other man-made causes, and domestic cats. (The cats outnumbered everything by a huge margin! Like several thousand times as many.)

That's a useless comparison.

Cats aren't out killing apex predators like golden eagles and peregrine falcons--the issue with turbines; they are killing carolina wrens and sparrows. Those birds are numerous, and not nearly as important as when raptors get taken down.

When you attempt to display knowledge of something, please be sure that you actually understand that thing.

 

[Blue_Max]

That's a useless comparison.

Cats aren't out killing apex predators like golden eagles and peregrine falcons--the issue with turbines; they are killing carolina wrens and sparrows. Those birds are numerous, and not nearly as important as when raptors get taken down.

When you attempt to display knowledge of something, please be sure that you actually understand that thing.

You make a good point - I suppose that gives you the right to be a total asshole about it.

Bats are also hit harder by turbines than by domestic cats... causes their lungs to collapse due to the difference of air pressures as they pass by.


I have to wonder... if a field of turbines is set up in an area for a number of years, will ornithological life eventually learn it's 'bad' and avoid it?

Of course, there are plenty of areas with far less air life making it great choices for wind farms. Some coastal areas of Canada and the deserts of America come to mind. Canada's east coast was set to have a big wind farm that was nixed almost completely by the hand of our singing treasure, Anne Murray. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/anne-murray-protests-proposed-pugwash-wind-farm-1.1245507

 

[werepossum]

Cool story, thanks. Fossil fuel plants make excellent demand generation since they ramp quickly and have little overhead losses. However, there are other ways to do this same thing. Pumping water to elevated holding reservoirs yields excellent demand and ride-through capacity. Thermal storage and occassionally even rotary mechanical or battery/capacitor storage can take off-peak wind or solar electricity and transform it to demand or ride-through generation; maybe the overall efficiency is low, but if it captures clean, no-unit cost electricity that would otherwise be lost, efficiency is effectively greater than unity.

 

[glenn1]

One of the biggest drawbacks to our entire electric energy system is the use-it-or-lose-it nature of electricity itself. I remember there was some great discussion on city-scale energy storage technologies... I hope to see that progress as well.

And before anyone complains about wind turbines killing pretty little birdies, I should dig up the research showing how many birds are killed by turbines and other man-made causes, and domestic cats. (The cats outnumbered everything by a huge margin! Like several thousand times as many.)

Yes, we need to solve the storage issue but it's good we've made alternative energy economically competitive without subsidies. That's really the only thing that will allow it to become viable to scale.

As for killing birds, we just need to realistically decide which tradeoffs we're willing to make. Sure that's a bad outcome but so are some of the outcomes from any other power source yet developed and that shouldn't be fodder for nutty environmentalists who have gone way beyond NIMBY into a mentality of BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything)

 

[PokerGuy]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ind-reach-a-big-renewables-turning-point-bnef



Interesting. Energy is a major concern. Glad to see innovation answering.

The dropping price of solar and wind is a good thing, and if that makes those energy sources cheaper than oil and gas (without subsidies), that's a good thing as well. I have to wonder though, how much of the closing of the gap is due to artificially increasing the price of energy from fossil fuel? If the governments impose onerous and expensive requirements on the fossil fuel burning electricity generating plants, then obviously other "favored" sources will become cheaper in comparison.

Scaling is also another major issue. Take wind for example. It's good that it's becoming competitive in price, but in reality if you really want to start scaling it to become a significant source, you'd run into lots of environmental/ecological/nimby/banana problems.

 

[bshole]

One of the biggest drawbacks to our entire electric energy system is the use-it-or-lose-it nature of electricity itself. I remember there was some great discussion on city-scale energy storage technologies... I hope to see that progress as well.

And before anyone complains about wind turbines killing pretty little birdies, I should dig up the research showing how many birds are killed by turbines and other man-made causes, and domestic cats. (The cats outnumbered everything by a huge margin! Like several thousand times as many.)

My biggest complaint with regards to wind energy (besides the cost) is the noise and sight pollution. I don't want to see/hear those monstrosities anywhere near to where I live.

 

[PokerGuy]

My biggest complaint with regards to wind energy (besides the cost) is the noise and sight pollution. I don't want to see/hear those monstrosities anywhere near to where I live.

Of course you don't, that's the nimby problem. The same is true for fossil fuel driven energy plants as well, but they care going to be much more contained in a location than wind turbines and solar panels that would have to be all over the place for that energy source to be of significant scale to be meaningful.

 

[IronWing]

We could boost the capacity factor for solar by using low cost, off peak coal to power high efficiency LED lighting to keep the solar arrays working through the night.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

^^^my solar project should pay for itself in 6-8 years with energy credits even with the wholesale energy rate my system would pay for itself in 12-15 years. The system should operate at 50% efficiency at 25 years old. Solar is becoming pretty affordable.

 

[sm625]

We could boost the capacity factor for solar by using low cost, off peak coal to power high efficiency LED lighting to keep the solar arrays working through the night.

That is a great idea. Did you come up with that while drinking your Brawndo?

 

[Cozarkian]

You make a good point - I suppose that gives you the right to be a total asshole about it.

Bats are also hit harder by turbines than by domestic cats... causes their lungs to collapse due to the difference of air pressures as they pass by.


I have to wonder... if a field of turbines is set up in an area for a number of years, will ornithological life eventually learn it's 'bad' and avoid it?

Of course, there are plenty of areas with far less air life making it great choices for wind farms. Some coastal areas of Canada and the deserts of America come to mind. Canada's east coast was set to have a big wind farm that was nixed almost completely by the hand of our singing treasure, Anne Murray. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/anne-murray-protests-proposed-pugwash-wind-farm-1.1245507

Isn't the important factor the percentage of the population killed? If so, a smaller population doesn't help.

 

[DrPizza]

We could boost the capacity factor for solar by using low cost, off peak coal to power high efficiency LED lighting to keep the solar arrays working through the night.

:awe:

 

[glenn1]

We could boost the capacity factor for solar by using low cost, off peak coal to power high efficiency LED lighting to keep the solar arrays working through the night.

 

[blankslate]

One of the biggest drawbacks to our entire electric energy system is the use-it-or-lose-it nature of electricity itself. I remember there was some great discussion on city-scale energy storage technologies... I hope to see that progress as well.

All we need is the next evolutionary step in batteries and the whole world changes overnight.

Storage solutions are being worked on and in some use situations will be available soon to individuals.

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

Powerwall is a home battery that charges using electricity generated from solar panels, or when utility rates are low, and powers your home in the evening. It also fortifies your home against power outages by providing a backup electricity supply. Automated, compact and simple to install, Powerwall offers independence from the utility grid and the security of an emergency backup.

Powerwall comes in 10 kWh weekly cycle and 7 kWh daily cycle models. Both are guaranteed for ten years and are sufficient to power most homes during peak evening hours. Multiple batteries may be installed together for homes with greater energy need, up to 90 kWh total for the 10 kWh battery and 63 kWh total for the 7 kWh battery.

Tesla's solution should be available within 6 months to a year.


....

 

[Blue_Max]

My biggest complaint with regards to wind energy (besides the cost) is the noise and sight pollution. I don't want to see/hear those monstrosities anywhere near to where I live.

People near them often complain of constant headaches - not from the noise, but from the alteration of air pressures. Winds farms will have to be away from people.

As someone else already said, that's where solar gets a moderate "win" - it can be placed anywhere without causing harm to life... well, beyond the heavy process required to make the panel in the first place.

 

[Blue_Max]

That is a great idea. Did you come up with that while drinking your Brawndo?

"It's got electrolytes!!" :awe:

 

[Fanatical Meat]

People near them often complain of constant headaches - not from the noise, but from the alteration of air pressures. Winds farms will have to be away from people.

As someone else already said, that's where solar gets a moderate "win" - it can be placed anywhere without causing harm to life... well, beyond the heavy process required to make the panel in the first place.

Those are like all the people with gluten allergies, they're assholes.

 

[Blue_Max]

Storage solutions are being worked on and in some use situations will be available soon to individuals.

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

Tesla's solution should be available within 6 months to a year.

Cool, but what makes Tesla's batteries better than your average lead-acid car battery, or dangerous lithium-ion technology?

Rather than a single home, there were some LARGE-scale (like, city-scale) energy-storage technologies being worked on... one was based on some kind of liquid sodium, another on some kind of giant metal plates that hovered between solid & liquid... I haven't read that stuff for years so it probably isn't any closer to release.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Cool, but what makes Tesla's batteries better than your average lead-acid car battery, or dangerous lithium-ion technology?

Rather than a single home, there were some LARGE-scale (like, city-scale) energy-storage technologies being worked on... one was based on some kind of liquid sodium, another on some kind of giant metal plates that hovered between solid & liquid... I haven't read that stuff for years so it probably isn't any closer to release.

I don't know the physics behind them but Teslas solution is very scaleable and they appear to actually give a crap and the batteries have good charge cycles that should last a long time.

 

[Blue_Max]

Those are like all the people with gluten allergies, they're assholes.

Sorry, my sarcasm detector is broken today... I'm going to assume the best here.

The headaches from wind turbines was real - even the deaf felt the same. However, this is only when you're very close to them.

And only 10-20% of the people I know who complain about gluten are ACTUALLY allergic.