Blog: A real-life Muslim's Response to the 25,000 Anti-Islam Protesters in Germany

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Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
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I find the description of the this blogger as a "real life" Muslim to be informative about the OP's intentions.

IMO, the blogger is guilty of the same offense he accuses others of: He generalizes or paints Muslims with a broad brush. The difference is he uses 'nice' paint while others use 'evil' paint.

I respectfully disagree. In which paragraphs does the author paint Muslims with a nice brush? Islam as a religion, perhaps. But as I read it, nearly all of his references to "Muslims" (i.e., Muslim people) are either in the context of statistics or in terms of what the Dresden protesters ostensibly think about Muslims. More generally, I see the article as being more about critiquing the pegida approach to Muslims than I see it as being about Muslims per se.

The problems seem to specifically be with Arab Muslims. I wish someone would examine why Muslims, with their religion based upon (nearly) identical texts, apparently behave so differently. Or even if that perception is accurate.

Why are the "problems" specifically with 'Arab' Muslims? Because the likes of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban are Muslim? Jihadi networks exist in Iran (Persian Muslims) and Indonesia (Asia), and the specific 'Boko Harem' issue reported in today's news comes from Nigerian Islamic extremists. None of these latter groups are Arabs.
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
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According to the worldbank data linked (klick on the 0,01%-link), Germany catered for 589,737 refugess in 2012 (which is the newest data point) which is > 1% of the 51.2 million, not "less than 0.01%". And if you take away the crisis countries and their neighbours (Jordan, West Bank/Gaza, Pakistan, Syria, Iran), Germany actually has the highest number of any "not in the crisis area" country, more than two times as many as the US (262,000), or France (217,865), almost four times as many as the UK (149,800) and eight times as many as Italy.

You're right, good catch. Other statistics that he links to seem to check out, as far as I can tell...so I hope this one was just an unfortunate oversite.

Edit: Actually, at least 1 other of his sources seems to be misrepresented. The final one says that Muslims are 42 times more likely to be searched at an airport, but his source is about Asians, not Muslims. A shame, as this kind of thing certainly detracts from his overall point.

Apart from that, the Anti-Pegida demonstrations are (in most places much) bigger than the Pegida demonstrations themselves, so yes, there is some struggle about that topic, but it's not like Pegida's looking like a majority or anything close to that.

I would agree with this. Nonetheless, some of the Pegida attitudes he is critiquing are pretty frequently heard in other European countries, especially that Muslim immigrants are "flooding our country/city/neighbourhood/school." I've certainly heard such sentiment in Belgium, France and the UK, and on more than just a few occasions.
 

Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
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Personally I find the blog to not be very productive as I think it ignores the actual important things to consider when it comes to radicalized anything.

As far as radicalized western muslims goes I see it this way. The muslim culture is pretty different than our standard western culture. We are far more lax on keeping rules and have far less of them (there certainly are sub cultures that are strict, but I would say society at large in the western world does not have the same rigid structure as any strict religion does). This leads to integration being more difficult, usually becoming part of a new group means the new person has to be the one more willing to change and show that he fits in with everyone else to start. It is usually not until after acceptance to a group that the persons individualism starts being appreciated. I moved from Germany to Canada as a kid and while those cultures are quite similar making fitting in and assimilation fairly easy it still took effort on my part.

Is a country scapegoating foreigners for the countries problems a positive thing? No, that however is not a unique problem to west, every country has their group of scapegoats. Its human nature to not want to accept responsibility for screw ups and every group tend to have some other group they blame for stuff at large that they don't know who to blame for... even the muslim ones.

The people who are radicalizing are generally people who don't fit in and they may have a hard time fitting in with society at large but they also have to be finding the same kind difficulties within their own muslim community before they become vulnerable to recruitment.

Saved this one for last. Thank you for your thoughts.

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that a Muslim immigrant to the West is more likely to struggle with integration than is an immigrant from other cultures. And the reason for this is that 'Muslim culture' (though it exists in multiple variations) is stricter than ours about rules of how the individual should behave in society. You also seem to be suggesting that Muslim immigrants going through that tough may find themselves criticised by other Muslims in their (immigrant) community, and thereby feel pressure to not only not integrate but become "more Muslim than the Muslims," i.e., to radicalize.

Assuming I've understood you correctly, that is a fascinating way to put it. Migrants who hold on to the traditions of 'back home' are very numerous, and the tendency itself is well known. Some Italian communities in Australia, for example, have maintained traditions that were common in Southern Italy back in the 1930s when their family first migrated, but which are now long-gone back in Southern Italy. I myself moved to Europe from Australia some 10 years ago, and I admit I found myself holding on to certain Australian behaviours rather stubbornly. Was it just home-sickness? Or was I perhaps reacting to the Europeanisation I was going through, and trying to desperately hold onto some pieces of my former Australian self? Interesting...

That said, I don't automatically see why a Muslim going through this process necessarily has to latch on to extremist/radical Islamic practices. If integration into their new country is difficult, I can just as see such people holding more tightly onto peaceful Muslim practices like prayer at a Mosque, strict adherence ot fasting during Ramadan, maintaining a beard, etc. In fact, I can see such Muslims as being deliberately moderate in their behaviour, so as to prove wrong any locals in their communities who are determined to paint them as extremist just because they are Muslim. Many immigrants want to fit in, after all, or at least be accepted, even though the process is tough.

Then again, while I am an immigrant, I am not a Muslim, so I don't want to presume too much about what it's like to be a Muslim immigrant and the effect integration has on Muslim immigrants' identities and behaviours.

Talking about whether Islam texts promote violence seems almost like a waste of time. I am sure you can interpret the text to say anything you want if you need to justify something to yourself.... that's just humans being humans. As much as we can look at how to better integrate them to society at large we also have to look at how their safety net can be more effective. Using the London example from Caravaggio, the recruiters do their recruiting the suburban enclaves, not in the downtown. While I can do my best to help them fit in at work and out in public, I can do nothing to help them fit in with their own muslim groups or point to the more radical people in those groups and work on making sure that the rest of the community knows that I think radicals are wrong.

The solution for recruitment out of the smaller muslim groups has to come from within those groups, likewise radicalization in smaller sub groups of christians has to be first and foremost dealt with by those groups. By the time the radicals reach downtown its too late to do anything about them.

When I see an interview with a muslim community leader who says "we don't preach what they are doing, I don't know why it happened" that's where I see that changes need to happen.... and that goes for any community with radicalized people, muslim, jewish, christian, or otherwise.

I find it hard to disagree with much of this. Muslim communities and leaders absolutely have a role to play in condemning extremism, and just stating "we don't preach/condone this" is absolutely not enough. I also agree that Westerners cannot be expected to specifically do anything to help Muslim immigrants fit in with their local Muslim communities. That said, we can and should call our fellow Westerners on their bullshit, whenever they unfairly scapegoat these Muslim immigrants...and especially when they try to paint all/most Muslims (or Islam itself) as inherently extremist. If we don't do so, we're just giving extra ammunition to any extremist in those Muslim communities who are determined to radicalise the moderates. That we CAN do, and I do try to do it in my day-to-day.
 

amyklai

Senior member
Nov 11, 2008
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I find it hard to disagree with much of this. Muslim communities and leaders absolutely have a role to play in condemning extremism, and just stating "we don't preach/condone this" is absolutely not enough.
This is something that is really missing.

After the Charlie Hebdo massacre in Paris, several muslim organisations called for mass demonstrations for freedom of speech, to show that the muslims in Germany do not support the terrorism. Unfortunately, the resulting turnout was pretty small.
 

Caravaggio

Senior member
Aug 3, 2013
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Is there a resource where I can find interpretation of key points in Islamic scripture and history that are contrary to the plain-reading interpretations of the radicals?

For a pro-Islam view you really need to go right back to the Hadith (sayings of and comments about the life of the Prophet)
Only if you understand 'where is Islam is coming from' can you get into that headspace. Of course, it is a hagiography, but it introduces the terms used by Islamic scholars.
For a far more critical account, I have found the writings of Bernard Lewis (the Crisis of Islam; What Went Wrong) very helpful. Both books have been generally well-received (4 star averages on Amazon).

But it is noteworthy that the most hostile reviews of his work are from people who seem expert in the subject. I am not.
Just best to realise that it is a highly contentious area. Read as widely as time allows.
Lewis writes clearly although his intellectual 'centre of gravity' has certainly become more hostile to Islam since 9/11.
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
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It would be interesting if we could find a blog of a "radical" Islamist who is trying to convince others to radicalize.........

There is a group of radicals that post here everyday trying to convince others to radicalize against Muslims
They follow the same radical ideology as Anders Behring Breivik
A couple of them are posting in this very thread, can you guess who?
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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There is a group of radicals that post here everyday trying to convince others to radicalize against Muslims
They follow the same radical ideology as Anders Behring Breivik
A couple of them are posting in this very thread, can you guess who?
You need to be specific.......I know of no radical Muslims posting in this thread.

Also if you are saying it is so, is that because perhaps they disagree with you?

or perhaps you meant to say -- people who are against radical Muslims.....
 
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Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
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or perhaps you meant to say -- people who are against radical Muslims.....

No, I meant the radical/fanatical posters who are afraid of all Muslims.
The ones that no matter what facts are presented tend to go with their beliefs instead of reality
 
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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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The ones that no matter what facts are presented tend to go with their beliefs instead of reality
The real problem is that you honestly believe that our societies can live hand in hand.....when the real truth is we cannot!

Sure you may point to those Muslims who came to America and hold down jobs...doctors, engineers etc.....they care little if anything about Islam as a religion.....my heat surgeon is Muslims. Not a finer person in the world! Yet he will tell you that they do not abserve many Muslim traditions or even customs...with the one exception being what they eat!

So most of us who disagree with you, we don`t think all Muslims are bad or extremists! We just believe that we need to be vigilant against that happening! While at the same time living in the melting pot of the world!
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
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The real problem is that you honestly believe that our societies can live hand in hand.....when the real truth is we cannot!

Sure you may point to those Muslims who came to America and hold down jobs...doctors, engineers etc.....they care little if anything about Islam as a religion.....my heat surgeon is Muslims. Not a finer person in the world! Yet he will tell you that they do not abserve many Muslim traditions or even customs...with the one exception being what they eat!

So most of us who disagree with you, we don`t think all Muslims are bad or extremists! We just believe that we need to be vigilant against that happening! While at the same time living in the melting pot of the world!

The Muslims I know care a lot about their religion, and live hand in hand here. Just like a lot of the Christian sects around me that don't fit into your norm
Do you also keep vigilant against Mormons and Christian Scientists or Jehovahs?
Your a Catholic Jew aren't you? Are you not compatible with the West?

Your surgeon must of got his words mixed up or you translated them wrong. I doubt he is stupid enough to believe there is a set of traditions or customs that he's suppose to follow that is related to Islam.

The melting pot of the world? What is that?
 
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Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
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Do you also keep vigilant against Mormons and Christian Scientists or Jehovahs?

If they tried to change laws to give themselves special privileges or allow their own religious rules to be considered more important than the laws of the country they live in, yes.

If they are violent or otherwise break the country's laws by in the practice of their religion (like mutilation, denying medical services, human sacrifice or honour killing) then, again, yes.

Your a Catholic Jew aren't you? Are you not compatible with the West?

The closest thing that actually exists (to whatever it is you said) would be Jews for Jesus. Not catholic. An interesting set of beliefs, but not hostile or incompatible with the law and freedom of others.

Islam has many rules and requirements (sharia being the most obvious) that are NOT compatible with the laws of any civilized country where murder is NOT permitted, even if they did cheat on their husband, drink alcohol, or change religions.

Funny how you keep mentioning Jews with such distaste, while simultaneously trying to convince us that you and/or other muslims aren't taught to dislike/hate/exterminate Jews.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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To the muslims here: do you support the death penalty for any reason? If so, please honestly say which reasons.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Islam has many rules and requirements (sharia being the most obvious) that are NOT compatible with the laws of any civilized country where murder is NOT permitted, even if they did cheat on their husband, drink alcohol, or change religions.

Funny how you keep mentioning Jews with such distaste, while simultaneously trying to convince us that you and/or other muslims aren't taught to dislike/hate/exterminate Jews.
You nailed original Earl pretty well!! Well said!!
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Your surgeon must of got his words mixed up or you translated them wrong. I doubt he is stupid enough to believe there is a set of traditions or customs that he's suppose to follow that is related to Islam.

The melting pot of the world? What is that?
You are arguing for arguments sake!
You actually know nothing about islam or Christianity or AmericA....

As a nation we have been called the melting pot..referring to all the differing cultures that have immigrated here and live in relative peace with everyone lese!
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
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If they tried to change laws to give themselves special privileges or allow their own religious rules to be considered more important than the laws of the country they live in, yes.

If they are violent or otherwise break the country's laws by in the practice of their religion (like mutilation, denying medical services, human sacrifice or honour killing) then, again, yes.



The closest thing that actually exists (to whatever it is you said) would be Jews for Jesus. Not catholic. An interesting set of beliefs, but not hostile or incompatible with the law and freedom of others.

Islam has many rules and requirements (sharia being the most obvious) that are NOT compatible with the laws of any civilized country where murder is NOT permitted, even if they did cheat on their husband, drink alcohol, or change religions.

Funny how you keep mentioning Jews with such distaste, while simultaneously trying to convince us that you and/or other muslims aren't taught to dislike/hate/exterminate Jews.

I bring up Jews when typing to JediYoda, because he is Jewish and is like a Nazi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Catholics

Muslims practice sharia law everyday in the US and the rest of the West, sharia is interpreted vastly different among Muslims, you guys always seem to focus on SA.

I'm not a Muslim and the only Jew I have a problem with is Jedi
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
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You are arguing for arguments sake!
You actually know nothing about islam or Christianity or AmericA....

As a nation we have been called the melting pot..referring to all the differing cultures that have immigrated here and live in relative peace with everyone lese!

I would have to guess that actually interacting with lot's of different religions throughout my life has given me a lot more insight to religion then you
As a Jew why aren't you concerned with melting the Orthodox into America's pot
Then get started with the Amish, Mennonites, Mormons, etc etc etc

Oh wait, America guaranties the right to practice your religion, they don't have to melt because you say so
 
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Black Octagon

Golden Member
Dec 10, 2012
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"Islam" is an abstract noun. It lacks the agency to wage war, or do anything else for that matter. Moreover, that video assumes that the battles in question had anything to do with religion. Maybe some did, but we're not given evidence for this. They could very well have been due to the strategic locations of those Mediterranean states. The Crusades, on the other hand, were known to be about religion.

Even if all those battles were about "Islam," what does that have to do with "jihad"? The guy beind that video seems to not have looked up the meaning of that word, and has instead bought into the crude Western media definition of jihad as "holy war."

...

Booo-urns!
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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I would have to guess that actually interacting with lot's of different religions throughout my life has given me a lot more insight to religion then you
As a Jew why aren't you concerned with melting the Orthodox into America's pot
Then get started with the Amish, Mennonites, Mormons, etc etc etc

Oh wait, America guaranties the right to practice your religion, they don't have to melt because you say so
I guess in your case ignorance is OK??
A have been living in Peace and understanding with my brothers of different faiths!

The issue is simply one which you fail to acknowledge....
The truth is that Islam cannot live side by side with people of other religions!

Sure in the United States we have Muslims and others who embrace Islam and live in relative silence with other religions. Yet this is in America the melting pot of the world....

So I don`t know why you are arguing against the truth...
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
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I guess in your case ignorance is OK??
A have been living in Peace and understanding with my brothers of different faiths!

The issue is simply one which you fail to acknowledge....
The truth is that Islam cannot live side by side with people of other religions!

Sure in the United States we have Muslims and others who embrace Islam and live in relative silence with other religions. Yet this is in America the melting pot of the world....

So I don`t know why you are arguing against the truth...

You constantly contradict yourself.
Whatever you did for seven years with military intelligence just could not of been good for America
 

Rebel_L

Senior member
Nov 9, 2009
444
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Saved this one for last. Thank you for your thoughts.

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that a Muslim immigrant to the West is more likely to struggle with integration than is an immigrant from other cultures. And the reason for this is that 'Muslim culture' (though it exists in multiple variations) is stricter than ours about rules of how the individual should behave in society. You also seem to be suggesting that Muslim immigrants going through that tough may find themselves criticised by other Muslims in their (immigrant) community, and thereby feel pressure to not only not integrate but become "more Muslim than the Muslims," i.e., to radicalize.

Assuming I've understood you correctly, that is a fascinating way to put it. Migrants who hold on to the traditions of 'back home' are very numerous, and the tendency itself is well known. Some Italian communities in Australia, for example, have maintained traditions that were common in Southern Italy back in the 1930s when their family first migrated, but which are now long-gone back in Southern Italy. I myself moved to Europe from Australia some 10 years ago, and I admit I found myself holding on to certain Australian behaviours rather stubbornly. Was it just home-sickness? Or was I perhaps reacting to the Europeanisation I was going through, and trying to desperately hold onto some pieces of my former Australian self? Interesting...

That said, I don't automatically see why a Muslim going through this process necessarily has to latch on to extremist/radical Islamic practices. If integration into their new country is difficult, I can just as see such people holding more tightly onto peaceful Muslim practices like prayer at a Mosque, strict adherence ot fasting during Ramadan, maintaining a beard, etc. In fact, I can see such Muslims as being deliberately moderate in their behaviour, so as to prove wrong any locals in their communities who are determined to paint them as extremist just because they are Muslim. Many immigrants want to fit in, after all, or at least be accepted, even though the process is tough.

Then again, while I am an immigrant, I am not a Muslim, so I don't want to presume too much about what it's like to be a Muslim immigrant and the effect integration has on Muslim immigrants' identities and behaviours.

Sorry for the late reply, I have been away for a bit.

From what I know about the recruitment of radicals (this applies to all radicals, not muslims in particular) is that those targeted for recruitment are people with no close ties to anything, ie the loners, the outcasts etc. The reason being of course that those with good stable and close relations with non radical elements will receive and value the feedback of their piers. So when they start to share their new extreme ideas they are quickly pointed out as being extreme and crazy and as such they are likely to reject being radicalized and keep to their current valued relationships.

Immigrants tend to leave a lot of those stable and valued relationships behind when they move making them more likely to fit the criteria. The larger the culture difference the longer I would expect it to take for them to re-establish those kinds of relationships. An established person with radicals trying to recruit him at work or church or in the neighborhood is likely to have valued relations at one of the places he is not being recruited to help him see what lies are being fed to him.

If muslims are being recruited out of their muslim communities I would believe they fall into the vulnerable category, and so they are likely also outcasts of the muslim group they are part of. I don't know if more radicalization happens in muslim groups than others or if its just a media portrayal. Since there is some recruitment out of muslim groups then it means they have outcasts (which is common, most large groups have people who are there and don't feel a part of the group) and they have recruiters among them their community (its hard to identify the outcasts and then interact with them for purposes of radicalization if you have no contact with the community).

The scary part to me is when the leaders of a community believe that they either have no people who feel like outcasts or they don't know who the more radical members of their communities are and have no idea what is really going on in their communities. If the community at large preached radicalization I would expect the group at large to behave that way. It is still up to a groups leadership to know whats going on and protect its vulnerable people whenever possible.
 
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The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
6,506
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The problems seem to specifically be with Arab Muslims. I wish someone would examine why Muslims, with their religion based upon (nearly) identical texts, apparently behave so differently. Or even if that perception is accurate.

Fern

In simple words: interpretation of the texts. If you dig further there is a difference of opinion amongst Muslim schools of thought on almost everything--including the basics--the oneness of God and the essence of prophethood. That means that we Muslims differ amongst ourselves about the minutest of details--should we cover our head while we pray?

While there are violent groups in almost any society, the West has made the wrong friends. They have befriended the Saudis who take the texts literally--and without context, use these texts for their extremist views. I live in Pakistan. It's the hotbed of sectarian hatred: funded by Saudi Arabia and Iran. I have lost a friend through what appears to be a sectarian targeted killing. Just yesterday, liberals protesting against extremists--who openly threaten to kill anybody who opposes them--were arrested by the "liberal leftist" provincial government "for their own protection."

Billions of dollars are sent by the Saudis to these groups which have become so powerful, the government refuses to do anything about it. The sad reality is that the "leaders" of these group control their followers--who would be unlikely to be able to differentiate between a donkey and a mule--through money and blind faith. It's our own fault. We are a victim of circumstance--in an inept, corrupt government refusing to do anything that would insult their Saudi overlords (who are ideologically poles apart).

To wrap up, I can understand where these German protestors are coming from. I would have done the same. They can't be allowed to get as powerful as the religious mafias in our part of the world. For us commoners in Pakistan (I am a staunch Muslim who is ashamed of the bad name some have bought to us), we must identify ourselves as "Muslims" to avoid persecution back at home while risking the same in the West.

As for Muslim immigrants: If you plan on retaining your Muslim identity, be prepared to suffer for the sins of others. We have been doing that in Pakistan for the last 15 years. It's not that bad in the West. It would have been worse if we were in charge. In fact, some Muslims treat other Muslims much worse than these Germans or Americans.
 
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sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
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Like that little sob story is going to have any impact on the the dumbed down masses. Muslim families get grabbed up off the streets all the time. A gun gets held to the wife or child's head and the husband straps on a bomb to save their life. How many times has this happened? How many times does it have to happen before these idiot sheeple begin to see the way the world works? The panic that ensues from such an act is so cost effective that they just keep on doing it. And it just keeps on workin. It's one of the reasons complex societies completely collapse. It is a perfect example of how the luciferians control the population. Through simple and precise surgical actions like this, they are able to carve out an agenda with unparalleled success. And like cows to the slaughter, the unthinking masses are completely blind to it.