Blix Skeptical that Iraq has WMDs

[sirpado]

An interesting read


[*]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3323633.stm

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: sirpado
An interesting read


[*]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3323633.stm

Link to article

If there were nothing to hide, then why was Saddam constanly trying to play a shell game. Did he not think that we would jump the fence

 

[syzygy]

from the link:

Mr Blix and a team of UN weapons inspectors spent more than three months searching for WMD in Iraq in the build-up to
the war without finding anything they deemed significant.

his opinion is worthless. the only thing he's proven is his ineptitude. dr. kay's report detailed what has been found so far under
the free reign kay's teams have had to look where they wish when they wish. kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained
clandestine wmd programs, making blix's efforts in iraq under hussein's supervision an absolute folly, which is the typical u.n. method of
conducting relations with third world despots.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: syzygy
from the link:

Mr Blix and a team of UN weapons inspectors spent more than three months searching for WMD in Iraq in the build-up to
the war without finding anything they deemed significant.

his opinion is worthless. the only thing he's proven is his ineptitude. dr. kay's report detailed what has been found so far under
the free reign kay's teams have had to look where they wish when they wish. kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained
clandestine wmd programs, making blix's efforts in iraq under hussein's supervision an absolute folly, which is the typical u.n. method of
conducting relations with third world despots.

Blah, blah, blah -- or should I say Baa, Baa, Baa. It's awfully funny how you arm-chair warmongers (and your boys in the White House) know so much more than the men who were actually on the ground in Iraq like Blix and Scott Ritter. It's doubly funny in a pathetic sort of way since they seem to be right and you all seem to be wrong. Oh well, let's not let facts get in the way of mindless partisan bleating.

Speaking of which, your interpretation of the Kay report is unsupported by facts. You might want to actually read it instead of relying on people like Rush to tell you everything they want you to believe.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: syzygy
from the link:

Mr Blix and a team of UN weapons inspectors spent more than three months searching for WMD in Iraq in the build-up to
the war without finding anything they deemed significant.

his opinion is worthless. the only thing he's proven is his ineptitude. dr. kay's report detailed what has been found so far under
the free reign kay's teams have had to look where they wish when they wish. kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained
clandestine wmd programs, making blix's efforts in iraq under hussein's supervision an absolute folly, which is the typical u.n. method of
conducting relations with third world despots.

Blah, blah, blah -- or should I say Baa, Baa, Baa. It's awfully funny how you arm-chair warmongers (and your boys in the White House) know so much more than the men who were actually on the ground in Iraq like Blix and Scott Ritter. It's doubly funny in a pathetic sort of way since they seem to be right and you all seem to be wrong. Oh well, let's not let facts get in the way of mindless partisan bleating.

Speaking of which, your interpretation of the Kay report is unsupported by facts. You might want to actually read it instead of relying on people like Rush to tell you everything they want you to believe.

Which facts do you speak of that are not supported by the kay report?

 

[syzygy]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: syzygy
from the link:

Mr Blix and a team of UN weapons inspectors spent more than three months searching for WMD in Iraq in the build-up to
the war without finding anything they deemed significant.

his opinion is worthless. the only thing he's proven is his ineptitude. dr. kay's report detailed what has been found so far under
the free reign kay's teams have had to look where they wish when they wish. kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained
clandestine wmd programs, making blix's efforts in iraq under hussein's supervision an absolute folly, which is the typical u.n. method of
conducting relations with third world despots.

Blah, blah, blah -- or should I say Baa, Baa, Baa. It's awfully funny how you arm-chair warmongers (and your boys in the White House) know so much more than the men who were actually on the ground in Iraq like Blix and Scott Ritter. It's doubly funny in a pathetic sort of way since they seem to be right and you all seem to be wrong. Oh well, let's not let facts get in the way of mindless partisan bleating.

Speaking of which, your interpretation of the Kay report is unsupported by facts. You might want to actually read it instead of relying on people like Rush to tell you everything they want you to believe.

i have read and studied the kay report. here's a link to it: dr. kay report

now amuse me. tell me where i'm wrong. quote it, misquote it, spice it up a bit with your imaginings. proceed.

from a person who cites the disgraced ritter, this should be funny in a pathetic sort of way.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: syzygy
from the link:

Mr Blix and a team of UN weapons inspectors spent more than three months searching for WMD in Iraq in the build-up to
the war without finding anything they deemed significant.

his opinion is worthless. the only thing he's proven is his ineptitude. dr. kay's report detailed what has been found so far under
the free reign kay's teams have had to look where they wish when they wish. kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained
clandestine wmd programs, making blix's efforts in iraq under hussein's supervision an absolute folly, which is the typical u.n. method of
conducting relations with third world despots.

Blah, blah, blah -- or should I say Baa, Baa, Baa. It's awfully funny how you arm-chair warmongers (and your boys in the White House) know so much more than the men who were actually on the ground in Iraq like Blix and Scott Ritter. It's doubly funny in a pathetic sort of way since they seem to be right and you all seem to be wrong. Oh well, let's not let facts get in the way of mindless partisan bleating.

Speaking of which, your interpretation of the Kay report is unsupported by facts. You might want to actually read it instead of relying on people like Rush to tell you everything they want you to believe.

Which facts do you speak of that are not supported by the kay report?

"kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained clandestine wmd programs"

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: syzygy

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: syzygy
from the link:

Mr Blix and a team of UN weapons inspectors spent more than three months searching for WMD in Iraq in the build-up to
the war without finding anything they deemed significant.

his opinion is worthless. the only thing he's proven is his ineptitude. dr. kay's report detailed what has been found so far under
the free reign kay's teams have had to look where they wish when they wish. kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained
clandestine wmd programs, making blix's efforts in iraq under hussein's supervision an absolute folly, which is the typical u.n. method of
conducting relations with third world despots.

Blah, blah, blah -- or should I say Baa, Baa, Baa. It's awfully funny how you arm-chair warmongers (and your boys in the White House) know so much more than the men who were actually on the ground in Iraq like Blix and Scott Ritter. It's doubly funny in a pathetic sort of way since they seem to be right and you all seem to be wrong. Oh well, let's not let facts get in the way of mindless partisan bleating.

Speaking of which, your interpretation of the Kay report is unsupported by facts. You might want to actually read it instead of relying on people like Rush to tell you everything they want you to believe.

i have read and studied the kay report. here's a link to it: dr. kay report

now amuse me. tell me where i'm wrong. quote it, misquote it, spice it up a bit with your imaginings. proceed.

from a person who cites the disgraced ritter, this should be funny in a pathetic sort of way.

Sorry, son, I can't prove a negative. The only way I can "prove" the report does not support your claims is to quote the entire thing. Otherwise, you can claim that the part you meant is a part that I omitted.

You bear the burden of proof. Quote the part you think supports your claim and I will be happy to show you why you're wrong. The Kay report is full of "could's" and "may's" and other equivocations, but when you get to the bottom, they didn't actually find any WMD's or WMD programs or anything else of the sort. Yes, Hussein still wanted those weapons. We don't need Kay to tell us that.

 

[syzygy]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
"kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained clandestine wmd programs"

laugh . . or should i be snickering at this latest stupidiity ?

if you read the report, you would understand the context with which i used the term 'preliminary.' the word is used
not to put their whole effort and discoveries in doubt (as you think), but quite the opposite. the preliminary nature
of the report alludes to the amount of work done up to now, not to the substance of the work produced; an issue of
time, not content. the results are judiciously presented. he does not hide his doubts nor does he draw any conclusions
which the evidence uncoverd up to now does not support.

kay lists and supplements with photographs the discoveries his team has made. here is kay writing in his report:

Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:

* A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment
ubject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

*A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for
UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

*Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological
weapons.

*New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on
ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

*Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by
centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

*A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their
declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

*Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that
was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from
the UN.

*Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km - well beyond the 150 km
range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle
East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

*Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic
missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So, where are the weapons?

Where are the ones we went to war over?

<pin drop>

 

[dmcowen674]

"Iraq probably destroyed its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in the early 1990s, the former United Nations chief weapons inspector Hans Blix has said."

So which is it? Was there ever any WMD to begin with other than some Gas they obviously used up knocking down population in the northern area of the Country. Looks like they used that up and that was it.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
"Iraq probably destroyed its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in the early 1990s, the former United Nations chief weapons inspector Hans Blix has said."

So which is it? Was there ever any WMD to begin with other than some Gas they obviously used up knocking down population in the northern area of the Country. Looks like they used that up and that was it.

Then why not show proof of the destruction and be done with it?

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: syzygy

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
"kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained clandestine wmd programs"

laugh . . or should i be snickering at this latest stupidiity ?

If you can't laugh at yourself, who can?

if you read the report, you would understand the context with which i used the term 'preliminary.' the word is used
not to put their whole effort and discoveries in doubt (as you think), but quite the opposite. the preliminary nature
of the report alludes to the amount of work done up to now, not to the substance of the work produced; an issue of
time, not content. the results are judiciously presented. he does not hide his doubts nor does he draw any conclusions
which the evidence uncoverd up to now does not support.

Hey, ZeroOfPellinor, you want to jump in here and explain "literacy" to syzygy? I didn't ever mention the word "preliminary", nor did I make an issue of this being a preliminary report. It's the fact that Kay qualifies all of his discoveries. They never find XYZ, they always find something that might be used for XYZ. Bush claimed in July that Kay would report finding WMDs in his September report (another Bush-lite lie by the way) and Kay is doing his best to make it look like he is delivering, even though they didn't really find any.

kay lists and supplements with photographs the discoveries his team has made. here is kay writing in his report:

Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:

* A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment
ubject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

*A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for
UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

*Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological
weapons.

*New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on
ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

*Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by
centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

*A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their
declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

*Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that
was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from
the UN.

*Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km - well beyond the 150 km
range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle
East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

*Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic
missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

Yep. Where are the WMDs again? You said, "kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained clandestine wmd programs". Sorry, they're not there. The only thing even close is the single, twenty year old "vial of live C. botulinum Okra B." bacteria -- not toxin -- obtained from a U.S. lab in the early 1980's. This particular strain of the botulinum bacteria is a less-virulent strain that has never been successfully weaponized. It's good for Botox, not bioterrorism.

Was Hussein a bad guy? Sure. Was he dishonest and deceptive? Of course. Did he still have WMDs or WMD programs? Not according to Kay's findings so far.

I'll go back to where I started: read the report yourself and note what it does say, not what the Limbaughs and Bushes of the world want to pretend it says. Iraq may have had WMDs, but Kay hasn't found them any better than Blix.

 

[syzygy]

Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
So, where are the weapons?

Where are the ones we went to war over?

<pin drop>

read the report. read the report. read the report. as if this going to help . . . read the report.
you would think such an obvious question is not adressed ?

all the discoveries made up to this point prove that hussein was in violation of resolution 1441, and this is without any
discoveries - yet - of actual weapons. not that resolution 1441 meant anything in itself beyond the u.n.'s unrivaled genius
for incompetence, but it does state the dire need to act forcefully to prevent hussein's eventual re-arming.

dr. kay:

We have not yet found stocks of weapons, but we are not yet at the point where we can say definitively either that
such weapon stocks do not exist or that they existed before the war and our only task is to find where they have gone.
We are actively engaged in searching for such weapons based on information being supplied to us by Iraqis.

the hurdles include:

For example, there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square
miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130
ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined. As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to
store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: syzygy

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
"kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained clandestine wmd programs"

laugh . . or should i be snickering at this latest stupidiity ?

If you can't laugh at yourself, who can?

if you read the report, you would understand the context with which i used the term 'preliminary.' the word is used
not to put their whole effort and discoveries in doubt (as you think), but quite the opposite. the preliminary nature
of the report alludes to the amount of work done up to now, not to the substance of the work produced; an issue of
time, not content. the results are judiciously presented. he does not hide his doubts nor does he draw any conclusions
which the evidence uncoverd up to now does not support.

Hey, ZeroOfPellinor, you want to jump in here and explain "literacy" to syzygy? I didn't ever mention the word "preliminary", nor did I make an issue of this being a preliminary report. It's the fact that Kay qualifies all of his discoveries. They never find XYZ, they always find something that might be used for XYZ. Bush claimed in July that Kay would report finding WMDs in his September report (another Bush-lite lie by the way) and Kay is doing his best to make it look like he is delivering, even though they didn't really find any.

kay lists and supplements with photographs the discoveries his team has made. here is kay writing in his report:

Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:

* A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment
ubject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

*A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for
UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

*Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological
weapons.

*New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on
ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

*Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by
centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

*A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their
declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

*Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that
was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from
the UN.

*Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km - well beyond the 150 km
range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle
East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

*Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic
missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

Yep. Where are the WMDs again? You said, "kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained clandestine wmd programs". Sorry, they're not there. The only thing even close is the single, twenty year old "vial of live C. botulinum Okra B." bacteria -- not toxin -- obtained from a U.S. lab in the early 1980's. This particular strain of the botulinum bacteria is a less-virulent strain that has never been successfully weaponized. It's good for Botox, not bioterrorism.

Was Hussein a bad guy? Sure. Was he dishonest and deceptive? Of course. Did he still have WMDs or WMD programs? Not according to Kay's findings so far.

I'll go back to where I started: read the report yourself and note what it does say, not what the Limbaughs and Bushes of the world want to pretend it says. Iraq may have had WMDs, but Kay hasn't found them any better than Blix.

None of these things were found by blix and none were declared to the UN.

As i have said before, the kay report does not let saddam off the hook nor does it let our intel failure off the hook either.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
"Iraq probably destroyed its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in the early 1990s, the former United Nations chief weapons inspector Hans Blix has said."

So which is it? Was there ever any WMD to begin with other than some Gas they obviously used up knocking down population in the northern area of the Country. Looks like they used that up and that was it.

Then why not show proof of the destruction and be done with it?

The most likely explanation is that (1) they didn't have documentation to prove they destroyed them, or at least not that Bush, et al, would accept, and/or (2) Hussein was foolishly bluffing, hoping to maintain an image of power to his neighbors and to deter the U.S. from invading.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
"Iraq probably destroyed its weapons of mass destruction (WMD) in the early 1990s, the former United Nations chief weapons inspector Hans Blix has said."

So which is it? Was there ever any WMD to begin with other than some Gas they obviously used up knocking down population in the northern area of the Country. Looks like they used that up and that was it.

Then why not show proof of the destruction and be done with it?

The most likely explanation is that (1) they didn't have documentation to prove they destroyed them, or at least not that Bush, et al, would accept, and/or (2) Hussein was foolishly bluffing, hoping to maintain an image of power to his neighbors and to deter the U.S. from invading.

1) lack of documentation could have been replaced by interviews of people doing the destruction.

2) possibility, but it does not explain what kay has found so far.

3) stuff got moved or buried in the year that it took to go around the UN.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: charrison
None of these things were found by blix and none were declared to the UN.

As i have said before, the kay report does not let saddam off the hook nor does it let our intel failure off the hook either.

I know Blix found the al Samoud missles and forced Iraq to begin destroying them. I'm also pretty sure the Blix team discovered the UAVs, but they were still debating the actual range when we pulled the inspectors. Blix would have found more if he'd been given more time as requested. Note that Kay has built upon Blix's work and is still asking for more time, just like Blix.

I agree Iraq was attempting to conceal all sorts of things from the U.N. That doesn't support the "thousands of litres" and "mushroom cloud" and "stockpiles" and "we know where they are" deceptions Bush&Co. used to rationalize the invasion.

Yes, Hussein was a bad guy. Yes, Hussein was a brutal thug. Yes, Hussein kept secrets from the U.N. You can make those exact same comments about dozens of other world leaders. They do not consitute an imminent threat to the United States or its allies. They do not justify the loss of thousands of innocent lives and hundreds of billions of dollars for an invasion.

 

[syzygy]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger
Yep. Where are the WMDs again? You said, "kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained clandestine wmd programs". Sorry, they're not there. The only thing even close is the single, twenty year old "vial of live C. botulinum Okra B." bacteria -- not toxin -- obtained from a U.S. lab in the early 1980's. This particular strain of the botulinum bacteria is a less-virulent strain that has never been successfully weaponized. It's good for Botox, not bioterrorism.

Was Hussein a bad guy? Sure. Was he dishonest and deceptive? Of course. Did he still have WMDs or WMD programs? Not according to Kay's findings so far.

I'll go back to where I started: read the report yourself and note what it does say, not what the Limbaughs and Bushes of the world want to pretend it says. Iraq may have had WMDs, but Kay hasn't found them any better than Blix.

kay repeats the following:

We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq
concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002

now, anyone who reads your above spewage and simply notes the number of times you underline, bold, or emphasize the 'cans',
'possibilities', 'woulds', and related might be able to connect the dots and draw a conclusion that does not point to any coincidences.

well, there was this innocent prison laboratory complex we built as a harmless architectural fetish without any connection whatsoever
to our prior interests in biological terrorism. 'oh, ofcourse, how stupid of me,' says dr. blix.

aaah, by the way, . . . we have this clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses our fun-loving security forces maintain for
their, uh, leisure. its not like we need to report this, do we dr. blix ? "ha ha ha, what ! a little ole clandestine something or other for
those over-worked chaps. not at all. i know how demanding saddie can be. please proceed."

oh, and i don't mean to bother you, but there's also a reference strain, just one, really, honestly, truly, just one, that one of our
pointy heads likes to carry around - impresses his mistresses with it - which we don't have to report either, ok dr. blix ? "hmmm
. . . oooh . . . alright - i like to whip out the occasional wmd casualty shot for my 'groups' too, ya know. so i let this pass, once"

but, before you go hansy, i mean before you go to tell the world how were on the up and up, those clandestine attempts
to acquire long range missile technology from the north koreans was a birthday joke we had some low-level flunky play on the boss.
ha ha. he was hording all the good-looking chicks, so it was time for him to go. understand ? "oh, jeez, do i ? ! ? those toadies deserve
saddie at this worst."

and the new biological agents we have been working on, the covert capability to produce scud fuel propellant, some papers about
eventually restarting some funny uranium enrichment program that boss really likes, all that, and a little more you need not worry
your pretty little bald head about, is nothing. nothing. tell them, its nothing. especially the saddamites in the west. they'll eat your
words like a coprophagist off his diet of bread and water.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: charrison
None of these things were found by blix and none were declared to the UN.

As i have said before, the kay report does not let saddam off the hook nor does it let our intel failure off the hook either.

I know Blix found the al Samoud missles and forced Iraq to begin destroying them. I'm also pretty sure the Blix team discovered the UAVs, but they were still debating the actual range when we pulled the inspectors. Blix would have found more if he'd been given more time as requested. Note that Kay has built upon Blix's work and is still asking for more time, just like Blix.

I agree Iraq was attempting to conceal all sorts of things from the U.N. That doesn't support the "thousands of litres" and "mushroom cloud" and "stockpiles" and "we know where they are" deceptions Bush&Co. used to rationalize the invasion.

Yes, Hussein was a bad guy. Yes, Hussein was a brutal thug. Yes, Hussein kept secrets from the U.N. You can make those exact same comments about dozens of other world leaders. They do not consitute an imminent threat to the United States or its allies. They do not justify the loss of thousands of innocent lives and hundreds of billions of dollars for an invasion.

So blix needed another 12 years?

 

[Spencer278]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: charrison
None of these things were found by blix and none were declared to the UN.

As i have said before, the kay report does not let saddam off the hook nor does it let our intel failure off the hook either.

I know Blix found the al Samoud missles and forced Iraq to begin destroying them. I'm also pretty sure the Blix team discovered the UAVs, but they were still debating the actual range when we pulled the inspectors. Blix would have found more if he'd been given more time as requested. Note that Kay has built upon Blix's work and is still asking for more time, just like Blix.

I agree Iraq was attempting to conceal all sorts of things from the U.N. That doesn't support the "thousands of litres" and "mushroom cloud" and "stockpiles" and "we know where they are" deceptions Bush&Co. used to rationalize the invasion.

Yes, Hussein was a bad guy. Yes, Hussein was a brutal thug. Yes, Hussein kept secrets from the U.N. You can make those exact same comments about dozens of other world leaders. They do not consitute an imminent threat to the United States or its allies. They do not justify the loss of thousands of innocent lives and hundreds of billions of dollars for an invasion.

So blix needed another 12 years?

Would our now dead soldiers liked another 12 years to live?

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: charrison
None of these things were found by blix and none were declared to the UN.

As i have said before, the kay report does not let saddam off the hook nor does it let our intel failure off the hook either.

I know Blix found the al Samoud missles and forced Iraq to begin destroying them. I'm also pretty sure the Blix team discovered the UAVs, but they were still debating the actual range when we pulled the inspectors. Blix would have found more if he'd been given more time as requested. Note that Kay has built upon Blix's work and is still asking for more time, just like Blix.

I agree Iraq was attempting to conceal all sorts of things from the U.N. That doesn't support the "thousands of litres" and "mushroom cloud" and "stockpiles" and "we know where they are" deceptions Bush&Co. used to rationalize the invasion.

Yes, Hussein was a bad guy. Yes, Hussein was a brutal thug. Yes, Hussein kept secrets from the U.N. You can make those exact same comments about dozens of other world leaders. They do not consitute an imminent threat to the United States or its allies. They do not justify the loss of thousands of innocent lives and hundreds of billions of dollars for an invasion.

So blix needed another 12 years?

You're being dishonest. Blix didn't have 12 years. Seems to me he found about as much in his few months as Kay did. If you're talking about the previous U.N. team, they found and destroyed substantial WMD-related materials before we pulled them.

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: syzygy
kay repeats the following:

We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq
concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002

now, anyone who reads your above spewage and simply notes the number of times you underline, bold, or emphasize the 'cans',
'possibilities', 'woulds', and related might be able to connect the dots and draw a conclusion that does not point to any coincidences.

well, there was this innocent prison laboratory complex we built as a harmless architectural fetish without any connection whatsoever
to our prior interests in biological terrorism. 'oh, ofcourse, how stupid of me,' says dr. blix.

aaah, by the way, . . . we have this clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses our fun-loving security forces maintain for
their, uh, leisure. its not like we need to report this, do we dr. blix ? "ha ha ha, what ! a little ole clandestine something or other for
those over-worked chaps. not at all. i know how demanding saddie can be. please proceed."

oh, and i don't mean to bother you, but there's also a reference strain, just one, really, honestly, truly, just one, that one of our
pointy heads likes to carry around - impresses his mistresses with it - which we don't have to report either, ok dr. blix ? "hmmm
. . . oooh . . . alright - i like to whip out the occasional wmd casualty shot for my 'groups' too, ya know. so i let this pass, once"

but, before you go hansy, i mean before you go to tell the world how were on the up and up, those clandestine attempts
to acquire long range missile technology from the north koreans was a birthday joke we had some low-level flunky play on the boss.
ha ha. he was hording all the good-looking chicks, so it was time for him to go. understand ? "oh, jeez, do i ? ! ? those toadies deserve
saddie at this worst."

and the new biological agents we have been working on, the covert capability to produce scud fuel propellant, some papers about
eventually restarting some funny uranium enrichment program that boss really likes, all that, and a little more you need not worry
your pretty little bald head about, is nothing. nothing. tell them, its nothing. especially the saddamites in the west. they'll eat your
words like a coprophagist off his diet of bread and water.

Blah, blah, blah. You said, "kay's preliminary findings alone proved saddam maintained clandestine wmd programs". Sorry, they're not there. Your statement is FALSE. You can spin 'til the sun goes cold, but your statement is FALSE.

Look at Kay's quote above. Did he say they found WMDs? No. Did he say the found WMD programs? No. He said they found "WMD-related program activities". I know you wish it said more, but it just, flat-out doesn't.

As far as the rest of your moronic comments above, all I can say is bleated like a true, died in the wool Bush apologist. You embellish Kay's actual comments to make them seem more than they are. For example, "innocent prison laboratory complex we built as a harmless architectural fetish"? WTF? There is nothing about a "prison laboratory complex" that suggests anything related to WMDs unless you have already predetermined that that's what you want it to mean. Are you suggesting there is no other possible use for the labs? (Condi would be proud, just like her aluminum tubes that were "only" suitable for a uranium centrifuge.) Are you suggesting we don't have any lab facilities in any U.S. prisons? Get real. Maybe the lab was intended for WMD applications, but Kay didn't prove it, nor did he claim to. You're the only one making that claim.

The rest of your comments are equally banal. Lots of innuendo and asinine jabs, but no facts. Look at Kay's conclusions. Even he doesn't claim Iraq resumed WMD programs. Instead, he notes, " Saddam ... had not given up his aspirations and intentions to continue to acquire weapons of mass destruction." Not actual programs, just aspirations and intentions. The report does NOT say what you claim.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Bowfinger

Originally posted by: charrison
None of these things were found by blix and none were declared to the UN.

As i have said before, the kay report does not let saddam off the hook nor does it let our intel failure off the hook either.

I know Blix found the al Samoud missles and forced Iraq to begin destroying them. I'm also pretty sure the Blix team discovered the UAVs, but they were still debating the actual range when we pulled the inspectors. Blix would have found more if he'd been given more time as requested. Note that Kay has built upon Blix's work and is still asking for more time, just like Blix.

I agree Iraq was attempting to conceal all sorts of things from the U.N. That doesn't support the "thousands of litres" and "mushroom cloud" and "stockpiles" and "we know where they are" deceptions Bush&Co. used to rationalize the invasion.

Yes, Hussein was a bad guy. Yes, Hussein was a brutal thug. Yes, Hussein kept secrets from the U.N. You can make those exact same comments about dozens of other world leaders. They do not consitute an imminent threat to the United States or its allies. They do not justify the loss of thousands of innocent lives and hundreds of billions of dollars for an invasion.

So blix needed another 12 years?

You're being dishonest. Blix didn't have 12 years. Seems to me he found about as much in his few months as Kay did. If you're talking about the previous U.N. team, they found and destroyed substantial WMD-related materials before we pulled them.

Seems Kay has found more, because he has full access to more.

The only problem i have with blix is he was unable to take a hard line against the the non compliance of Saddam.

 

[DealMonkey]

OMG! Hussein could have been up to something! Please. Kay's report lacks concrete evidence of much of anything. It's all just speculative theory and lots of dual-use accusations. Yes, SH is a dirty little crap monkey and deserves whatever we end up doing to him. We should have used that angle instead ... At least after the fact, no one would have been second-guessing whether he was every bit the evil thug we said he was.