Bless Ken Starr and the NYT

[Hayabusa Rider]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...ential.html?src=twr&smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur

The claim has been made that a sitting President cannot be indicted. Well Ken Starr looked into that and the legal opinion is that's incorrect.

The noose should feel just a little tighter for Trump considering he's not imune.

 

[Younigue]

Thanks for that Hay! This pleases me!

 

[Maxima1]

Trump can't self-pardon at least, and in my view it's idiotic to not include co-conspirators aligned with his crimes.

I thought this was interesting, btw. George Mason's thoughts coming true in 2017. Nailed it!

 

[1sikbITCH]

dp

 

[1sikbITCH]

And to further that, the President can only pardon someone for federal crimes. If the President pardons someone, they are automatically pleading guilty. So then the states pick up the investigations and send them all to state prisons instead of Federal penitentiaries. This would seem to be a non-starter.

 

[IronWing]

And to further that, the President can only pardon someone for federal crimes. If the President pardons someone, they are automatically pleading guilty. So then the states pick up the investigations and send them all to state prisons instead of Federal penitentiaries. This would seem to be a non-starter.

Not true at all. See Ford's pardon of Nixon.

Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974.

There is no plea required for a pardon.

 

[Pens1566]

There's no plea required, but it's an implied admission of guilt. You don't pardon someone for something they haven't done.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Not true at all. See Ford's pardon of Nixon.



There is no plea required for a pardon.

Or even a crime to my amateur knowledge, the President can literally pardon someone for any Federal crimes committed or uncommitted

 

[Maxima1]

Or even a crime to my amateur knowledge, the President can literally pardon someone for any Federal crimes committed or uncommitted

There is no consensus yet.

 

[1sikbITCH]

Not true at all. See Ford's pardon of Nixon.



There is no plea required for a pardon.

You are right about no plea being required (unless the convict is the person requesting a pardon. In that case you must admit guilt before they will even send the application to the WH).

Acceptance of the pardon by the alleged scumbag is however necessary in order for the pardon to take effect. See Burdick v. United States below. The guy refused to accept the pardon in order to testify because even with the pardon in place he would still be exposed and the Supreme Court ruled in his favor. One of the reasons they opined was that accepting the pardon could be construed as admission of guilt.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/236/79/case.html


There are substantial differences between legislative immunity and a pardon; the latter carries an imputation of guilt and acceptance of a confession of it, while the former is noncommittal, and tantamount to silence of the witness.

Even so as the WP points out: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outl...34fb12-6e2d-11e7-b9e2-2056e768a7e5_story.html

But pardons would not end the investigation. Even if everyone were pardoned, Mueller could — and probably would — issue a report to Congress. Likewise, the congressional investigations would continue. Indeed, with pardons, witnesses could lose protections against self-incrimination and could more easily be forced to testify. New crimes such as perjury could fall outside of the pardon, and such a pardon would not protect against state charges. Finally, the difference could be that the focus would shift from potential counts for indictment to counts for impeachment. That change is not an improvement. The existing claims of criminal conduct on Trump’s part are relatively weak and speculative. To move from the legal to the political forum is to leave strategic high ground for a quagmire.

 

[WHAMPOM]

I am still trying to reconcile that the Prez or anyone else can pardon some one not convicted of a crime. Trial, conviction, then pardon for a miscarriage of Justice and not a political or self-serving reason seemed to be the proper order.

 

[Sunburn74]

Conceptually it seems odd to give a president a blank check to commit crimes unfettered knowing that he can simply pardon himself and conspirators infinitely.

Whilst the Constitution isn't clear, I'm sure even the most conservative of judges sees the harm in allowing this sort of interpretation.

Honestly I don't even know why the president has the power to pardon. It seems like a vestigial tradition from old monarchies.

 

[tweaker2]

Conceptually it seems odd to give a president a blank check to commit crimes unfettered knowing that he can simply pardon himself and conspirators infinitely.

Whilst the Constitution isn't clear, I'm sure even the most conservative of judges sees the harm in allowing this sort of interpretation.

Honestly I don't even know why the president has the power to pardon. It seems like a vestigial tradition from old monarchies.

I can see where the ability to pardon was once a tool that would, given very narrowly defined circumstances, correct an injustice that was a result of a technical glitch in the law or some happenstance that could only be justly corrected through pardoning.

However, as with any law, the nefarious types will always attempt to turn the righteous intent of said law on its head and exploit the law for escaping true justice.

 

[dainthomas]

Honestly I don't even know why the president has the power to pardon. It seems like a vestigial tradition from old monarchies.

My thought exactly. At a minimum, the power should exclude family or anyone he knows (for obvious conflict of interest reasons).