Blackberry 7100/7290 vs. Treo 650?

[Epsil0n00]

Sketcher~ I appreicate the time you took to clearly communicate and explain your experiences and perspective. Thanks for the input!

Eps.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: DeviousTrap
I have both, and I'd have to say they are a bit difficult to compare. The blackberry is excellent at email, but that is about it's limit. It sucks as an organizer and it's web browser is also crap.

The treo on the other hand can do just about everything, with exception of email (natively.) It has an excellent web browser and a lot of 3rd party applications that are not avaliable for the blackberry. You can find just about anything you need for a Treo as it runs the standard palm os. Also, recently a program called ChatterMail came out, which rivals the BlackBerry's email capability. It keeps an open session to an imap server essencially giving you the same push email as the blackberry would, since it would know exactly when a new message comes in.

A blackberry BES handles all the email for a company forwarding and sorting everything to the account holders blackberry. It does all the work and all the configuration is done easily by a network admin so it simplifies the task for the admin. They can easily roll out 100 blackberries in a corporate environment wtihout individually having to configure both. On the Treo you would need to configure each one. Once configured, however, the Treo is a very advanced advice, that can pretty much keep up in the email department, but excel in everything else.

Overall - If you are the admin and want something easy to support and distribute, and it's main use will be for emails then the blackberry is your choice. If you want something that is more complex and can do a lot more, and don't mind the extra work to maintain in a corporate environment I'd take a look at the Treo. I do think the BlackBerry will be the main player in the corporate market just because of how simple it is to roll out compared to a Treo.

The large Financial firm for which I work deploys Treos exclusively for higher-ups. The extra functionality is absolutely essential.

I can't see Blackberries becoming much more than a kind of "toy/reward" for lower level staff, at least in my industry, since anyone who really needs to be able to receive their E-mail remotely also needs a hell of a lot more other features that just cannot be found on a Blackberry. We just have way to many issues that come up via E-mail yet need a lot more than just E-mail connectivity to solve.

Now, for jobs where the key is communication continuity amongst personnel and the issues that come up are resolveable via E-mail then I can see the Blackberry being incredibly useful.

ZV

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: ZenmervoltI can't see Blackberries becoming much more than a kind of "toy/reward" for lower level staff,

Funny, unless there's a critical need for Treo specific functionality, I think of them as more of a toy/reward for the upper level staff

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt The large Financial firm for which I work deploys Treos exclusively for higher-ups. The extra functionality is absolutely essential.

No doubt that specific functionality can clearly dictate a device choice. But, simply stating that the Treo has extra functionality does not ipso facto make it the right choice for everyone. What is critical for your company might not be as important for another. So I'd be interested in what the critical apps are that necessitate Treo's for your brass. A large financial firm will have a different perspective on ROI and systems/device options than a smaller company.

Even though I've been speaking on more of a RIM biased perspective, on a device basis I do like the Treo's functionality over the current Blackberry's. Though, if the additional functionality were not critical to my job function I'm not sure that i'd be willing to pay twice the cost of a blackberry to get there. Realizing that you can roll out twice as many blackberry's as Treo's for the same cost really puts an emphasis on whether or not a feature is a critical function or not.

That said, about a third of my sale's force personally own Treo's. If my Goodlink pilot goes well, I may just run the BES and GL servers side by side. \shudder

ZV, what critical apps are your top dogs running on their Treo's and is your firm using a Goodlink backend?

*Disclaimer - my perspective comes more from an Admin, support and costing of an overall server/device point of view than from just an end user point of view.

forcesho, you said you've rolled out BOTH a BES 4.0 and GL 4.0; do you admin both of them as well? What's your take from an admin/server and device/support perspective?

Cheers

 

[Joemonkey]

I still don't see all the fuss over blackberries and treos (if you already have Exchange 2003)

if you want good blackberry implementation, you have to get BES, which will run you around $4000. The devices sure are cheap compared to the others though

Treo's are supposed to support Exchange ActiveSync, however it only wirelessly sync's up email and calendar, not contacts. The 650 I have on loan from Sprint sometimes resets itself when syncing, and sometimes requires me to delete everything on the phone then re-download it. Wow, i can just imagine what would happen if someone put 10 calendar entries in their Treo, then tried to sync it up.

I have to admit, the keyboard on all PocketPC phone/PDA combos really sucks, but for someone who has never used a PDA before, the windows familiarity and flawless syncing with Exchange simply cannot be beat. The lawyers I work for are freaking dinosaurs and refuse to learn anything new, so the thing that works best and looks familiar is what i have to choose.

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
I still don't see all the fuss over blackberries and treos (if you already have Exchange 2003)

if you want good blackberry implementation, you have to get BES, which will run you around $4000. The devices sure are cheap compared to the others though

Treo's are supposed to support Exchange ActiveSync, however it only wirelessly sync's up email and calendar, not contacts. The 650 I have on loan from Sprint sometimes resets itself when syncing, and sometimes requires me to delete everything on the phone then re-download it. Wow, i can just imagine what would happen if someone put 10 calendar entries in their Treo, then tried to sync it up.

I have to admit, the keyboard on all PocketPC phone/PDA combos really sucks, but for someone who has never used a PDA before, the windows familiarity and flawless syncing with Exchange simply cannot be beat. The lawyers I work for are freaking dinosaurs and refuse to learn anything new, so the thing that works best and looks familiar is what i have to choose.

Hey I love PocketPC's as much as just about anyone (except maybe NFS4, he really loves his :shocked: ), but you can't beat rolling out a BES 4.0 + BB Handhelds. Wireless provisioning, easy IT administration, high security, etc. It just can't be beat in an enterprise environment (Good is good too). That said, I can't wait to see what MS has up their sleeves with Exchange 2003 SP2 and Windows Mobile 5.0 I currently have the HTC MDA Universal as the background on my work pc...I want one so bad.

 

[Joemonkey]

Originally posted by: werk

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
I still don't see all the fuss over blackberries and treos (if you already have Exchange 2003)

if you want good blackberry implementation, you have to get BES, which will run you around $4000. The devices sure are cheap compared to the others though

Treo's are supposed to support Exchange ActiveSync, however it only wirelessly sync's up email and calendar, not contacts. The 650 I have on loan from Sprint sometimes resets itself when syncing, and sometimes requires me to delete everything on the phone then re-download it. Wow, i can just imagine what would happen if someone put 10 calendar entries in their Treo, then tried to sync it up.

I have to admit, the keyboard on all PocketPC phone/PDA combos really sucks, but for someone who has never used a PDA before, the windows familiarity and flawless syncing with Exchange simply cannot be beat. The lawyers I work for are freaking dinosaurs and refuse to learn anything new, so the thing that works best and looks familiar is what i have to choose.

Hey I love PocketPC's as much as just about anyone (except maybe NFS4, he really loves his :shocked: ), but you can't beat rolling out a BES 4.0 + BB Handhelds. Wireless provisioning, easy IT administration, high security, etc. It just can't be beat in an enterprise environment (Good is good too). That said, I can't wait to see what MS has up their sleeves with Exchange 2003 SP2 and Windows Mobile 5.0 I currently have the HTC MDA Universal as the background on my work pc...I want one so bad.

rolling out BES 4.0 + BB is extremely expensive. I guess if you were rolling out 100 PDAs then the extra $4000 or whatever for BES doesn't really matter. But if you're rolling out 10, you have Exchange 2003 and are running EAS, costs are $170 for a BB, $300 for a PocketPC, total cost of BES + BB is $5700 and total cost for PocketPC rollout is device only at $3000. I suppose the cost of the actual phone plan can get factored in too

If you already have a server that can do EAS why shell out the $4000 for BES? We run SSL on the EAS link for security, so that isn't a concern really

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey

Originally posted by: werk

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
I still don't see all the fuss over blackberries and treos (if you already have Exchange 2003)

if you want good blackberry implementation, you have to get BES, which will run you around $4000. The devices sure are cheap compared to the others though

Treo's are supposed to support Exchange ActiveSync, however it only wirelessly sync's up email and calendar, not contacts. The 650 I have on loan from Sprint sometimes resets itself when syncing, and sometimes requires me to delete everything on the phone then re-download it. Wow, i can just imagine what would happen if someone put 10 calendar entries in their Treo, then tried to sync it up.

I have to admit, the keyboard on all PocketPC phone/PDA combos really sucks, but for someone who has never used a PDA before, the windows familiarity and flawless syncing with Exchange simply cannot be beat. The lawyers I work for are freaking dinosaurs and refuse to learn anything new, so the thing that works best and looks familiar is what i have to choose.

Hey I love PocketPC's as much as just about anyone (except maybe NFS4, he really loves his :shocked: ), but you can't beat rolling out a BES 4.0 + BB Handhelds. Wireless provisioning, easy IT administration, high security, etc. It just can't be beat in an enterprise environment (Good is good too). That said, I can't wait to see what MS has up their sleeves with Exchange 2003 SP2 and Windows Mobile 5.0 I currently have the HTC MDA Universal as the background on my work pc...I want one so bad.

rolling out BES 4.0 + BB is extremely expensive. I guess if you were rolling out 100 PDAs then the extra $4000 or whatever for BES doesn't really matter. But if you're rolling out 10, you have Exchange 2003 and are running EAS, costs are $170 for a BB, $300 for a PocketPC, total cost of BES + BB is $5700 and total cost for PocketPC rollout is device only at $3000. I suppose the cost of the actual phone plan can get factored in too

If you already have a server that can do EAS why shell out the $4000 for BES? We run SSL on the EAS link for security, so that isn't a concern really

What happens when someone loses their PPC full of confidential email?

 

[Joemonkey]

you can lock the screen so you need a 4 digit PIN to do anything but dial 911

i know it's not the best, but if the partners are worried that much about security then we'd look at another option

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Sketcher

Originally posted by: ZenmervoltI can't see Blackberries becoming much more than a kind of "toy/reward" for lower level staff,

Funny, unless there's a critical need for Treo specific functionality, I think of them as more of a toy/reward for the upper level staff

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt The large Financial firm for which I work deploys Treos exclusively for higher-ups. The extra functionality is absolutely essential.

No doubt that specific functionality can clearly dictate a device choice. But, simply stating that the Treo has extra functionality does not ipso facto make it the right choice for everyone. What is critical for your company might not be as important for another. So I'd be interested in what the critical apps are that necessitate Treo's for your brass. A large financial firm will have a different perspective on ROI and systems/device options than a smaller company.

Even though I've been speaking on more of a RIM biased perspective, on a device basis I do like the Treo's functionality over the current Blackberry's. Though, if the additional functionality were not critical to my job function I'm not sure that i'd be willing to pay twice the cost of a blackberry to get there. Realizing that you can roll out twice as many blackberry's as Treo's for the same cost really puts an emphasis on whether or not a feature is a critical function or not.

That said, about a third of my sale's force personally own Treo's. If my Goodlink pilot goes well, I may just run the BES and GL servers side by side. \shudder

ZV, what critical apps are your top dogs running on their Treo's and is your firm using a Goodlink backend?

*Disclaimer - my perspective comes more from an Admin, support and costing of an overall server/device point of view than from just an end user point of view.

forcesho, you said you've rolled out BOTH a BES 4.0 and GL 4.0; do you admin both of them as well? What's your take from an admin/server and device/support perspective?

Cheers

You'll notice that in my post I repetedly say "in my industry" or words to that effect.

As a lowly peon, I'm not entirely sure how the Treos are set up from an administrative side, my experience is strictly end-user and knowing what goes on when something blows up.

I'll grant that BB would be easier to set up and maintain (given the more limited functionality) and I even said that unless something more than E-mail is necessary, a BB would be incredibly useful. I'll go one better and say that BB is probably a better choice if all that is needed is the E-mail functionality.

Having seen the two, however, I'd rather be calling up asset reports and trade summaries (PDF documents) through our system with a Treo. Same goes for pulling quotes quickly.

A laptop is still ideal for us, but I just cannot see a BB being even an emergency appliance given what we would need to access.

ZV

 

[TheToOTaLL]

LOL.... Treo & Blackberry are pieces of sh*t compared to this baby....

http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/stor...toreId=10001&productId=14024&langId=-1

Slide out keyboard
Camera
Nice color screen, bigger than the Treo & Blackberry
REAL web surfing with Internet Explorer
Plus the power of Pocket PC (Word, Excel, etc, etc, etc)

The biggest seller was the fact that, since I manage an Exchange 2003 Server for work/personal email, all I needed to do was enter a few pieces of information to start doing Exchange ActiveSync. No need for expensive, 3rd party server that you have to pay yearly licensing fees on, plus more fees when you add new phones. I could run 100 of these phones off my one server and only have to pay for the cost of the phone....

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: Joemonkey
you can lock the screen so you need a 4 digit PIN to do anything but dial 911

i know it's not the best, but if the partners are worried that much about security then we'd look at another option

We started out letting our reps manage their own device pin, 'till we got one in for replacement and that guy had written his pin on the back of the device. The 'partners' will be blissful in their policy until one is compromised. No thanks, I'll maintain security and change policy at will from my server thank you very much.

It's one thing if the potentially compromised data doesn't significantly harm the company. But if your data is critical (and I think a lawyers data would be); more than just that one user is affected. Private data made public can end a company.

Give me a half hour with one of your devices, I'll serve you up data that your partners even forgot was there. W/out an external method of killing/wiping the app; you're at the mercy of whoever gets that device in hand.

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: TheToOTaLL
The biggest seller was the fact that, since I manage an Exchange 2003 Server for work/personal email, all I needed to do was enter a few pieces of information to start doing Exchange ActiveSync. No need for expensive, 3rd party server that you have to pay yearly licensing fees on, plus more fees when you add new phones. I could run 100 of these phones off my one server and only have to pay for the cost of the phone....

That's an often overlooked point TheTo0TaLL (at least in regards to Exchange 2003), I'll be researching that option and Microsoft's enhancements alongside the BES and GL servers. Nice to have inexpensive options available. With inexpensive solutions however, there's usually a tradeoff and I'm thinking that server based security and device rollout is going to an issue.

So how do you manage compromised device security? (I haven't read the MS detail yet).

thx.

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: TheToOTaLL
LOL.... Treo & Blackberry are pieces of sh*t compared to this baby....

http://www.audiovox.com/webapp/wcs/stor...toreId=10001&productId=14024&langId=-1

Slide out keyboard
Camera
Nice color screen, bigger than the Treo & Blackberry
REAL web surfing with Internet Explorer
Plus the power of Pocket PC (Word, Excel, etc, etc, etc)

The biggest seller was the fact that, since I manage an Exchange 2003 Server for work/personal email, all I needed to do was enter a few pieces of information to start doing Exchange ActiveSync. No need for expensive, 3rd party server that you have to pay yearly licensing fees on, plus more fees when you add new phones. I could run 100 of these phones off my one server and only have to pay for the cost of the phone....

As I said, I like PocketPC's, especially HTC's devices a lot. Also, you'll probably not find a bigger MS supporter on this site (outside of current & former MS employees ) However, you cannot call Blackberries POSs. You'd have to pay an employee just to manage 100 PocketPC + EAS devices manually. There goes your cost savings. There is no real management for the devices in Exchange. It's great if you have one or 2 devices for tech-savvy employees, but you can't just hand out PocketPCs to top-level executives. They will lose them, break them, divulge confidential information, etc. Blackberries are highly manageable and the most secure option out there. PocketPCs + EAS are not ready for primetime in an enterprise setting yet, sorry. I'm excited for the day they are though, they definitely have more potential on the hardware side than RIM's devices.

EDIT: Blackberry hardware is infinitely more forgiving to abuse than anything else out there as well. These things are freaking indestructible. Another item to pay attention to in cost analysis.

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt You'll notice that in my post I repetedly say "in my industry" or words to that effect.

Yeh, I noted that. I just take general statements to task; especially when those statements influence a perception that may be misleading to the uninitiate.

Something that everyone should keep in mind is budget and ROI.

1. What's the budget cap for this functionality
2. What's the minimum goal of the project.
3. What's the 'would like to have' goal of the project.
4. What resources are required and available to maintain the capability.

A bottleneck or defining criteria in any one of those categories can very quickly narrow your options and or make available devices or technologies for consideration.

As was mentioned in a post above, there are options other than BES and GL. It just depends on what you're comortable with regarding security, performance and your expectation out of the device and server administration.

 

[Sketcher]

Originally posted by: werk
As I said, I like PocketPC's, especially HTC's devices a lot. Also, you'll probably not find a bigger MS supporter on this site (outside of current & former MS employees ) However, you cannot call Blackberries POSs. You'd have to pay an employee just to manage 100 PocketPC + EAS devices manually. There goes your cost savings. There is no real management for the devices in Exchange. It's great if you have one or 2 devices for tech-savvy employees, but you can't just hand out PocketPCs to top-level executives. They will lose them, break them, divulge confidential information, etc. Blackberries are highly manageable and the most secure option out there. PocketPCs + EAS are not ready for primetime in an enterprise setting yet, sorry. I'm excited for the day they are though, they definitely have more potential on the hardware side than RIM's devices.

EDIT: Blackberry hardware is infinitely more forgiving to abuse than anything else out there as well. These things are freaking indestructible. Another item to pay attention to in cost analysis.

That'd be a Silver Bullet werk, when considering currently available technology and performance; you can't beat a BES/BB. I absolutely love mine, and my staff enjoy hassle free communication. The thing is just solid and is intuitive to admin. Now that I think about it, it's probably the single best technology implementation we've put in place in the last five years as far as staffing and ROI are concerned. I could add a few hundred more users and the administrative overhead is negligable. Try that with any other server/mobile device.

 

[cordite]

Originally posted by: werk
EDIT: Blackberry hardware is infinitely more forgiving to abuse than anything else out there as well. These things are freaking indestructible. Another item to pay attention to in cost analysis.

This is a major point that rarely gets figured into these comparisons. Even with significantly better hardiness we still get a few Blackberries that are either damaged or killed by users. Considering the couple of hundred of units that we have deployed, I'd shudder to think of what we would be up against with less sturdy units out there. In our case, email is the primary critical app for everyone so Blackberries are an ideal solution. We really have very few people that would benefit from the additional functionality of the Treo. It would be nice to have them deployed in our department (IT) though.

Also, BES 4.0 not only allows for wireless activation, but fully wireless sync as well.

In any case, there's definitely not a one-size-fits-all solution.