Black motorist pulled over for a traffic stop beaten to death by 5 Memphis police officers

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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
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Was curious what the COVID vaccine death rate actually is. The study reported here


Seems to say it's between 1 in a 1,000,000 and 1 in 300,000 (depending on whether you count 'high probability' or 'medium probability' cases of a death occuring shortly after vaccination being vaccine-related.

So if COVID vaccinations had been administered by US police officers, that would presumably have led to a 6-fold increase in death rates, with 5 out of every 6 vaccine-recipients who die, having been shot - or beaten - to death, and the other 1 dying of something probably vaccine-related.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Depends upon the nature of the encounter, though. What the purpose of the interaction is, what environment it occurs in, and, of course, your race and gender. Likely to be significantly higher for certain groups in certain contexts.

1 in 60,000, though, is still higher than I would have expected - it's _way_ higher than the fatality rate for the COVID vaccine, for example. Odd that anti-vaxxers don't take the same highly-risk-averse attitude to 'any sort of contact with police officers

That is just an example of arbitrary risk aversion, where people freak out about certain tiny risks, and ignore others which are statistically more significant. Like worrying more over a nuclear meltdown than over dying from pollution even though you're about 10000x more likely to die from pollution. Practically everyone does this.

Otherwise known as "news". That's what news media is for - covering news stories.

This is wrong. Because the media decides first and foremost what is news. As I said, 1000 die to police every year. The national media reports on what, 3 or 4 of these each year? And what is their selection criteria? That the victim is black and there is at least a chance it was a bad shoot/bad kill. Who got to decide that? Who got to decide that certain lives matter more than others? We think the police believe that certain lives matter more than others, and that is bad. Why is OK that the media thinks so too?

Worse still is the manner in which they choose to report on these cases. The initial reporting always pushes a racial narrative regardless of the facts. Even in this case with 5 black cops we have Van Jones writing an editorial reminding us that "black people can be racist towards black people too." Sure, in theory, but are blacks cops on average as racist toward black people as white cops? And all 5 of them? CNN pushes this narrative every time because it draws people in and increases their revenues.

And they don't give any stats like the ones I gave above. Never. It's obvious why they make their cases invalidly with anecdotes and never use statistics. Because these statistics give context and perspective. They don't want this because then people will be less freaked out and hence less motivated to obsessively read and view the news coverage.

National media is behaving in a socially irresponsible manner here. And they're doing it for money. What we need is more non-profit news like PBS here because corporate media sux.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,636
8,522
136
So, on those figures, to put it another way, if there are a million cases where a police officer interacts with someone to administer the vaccine, 1 person would die shortly after from what were quite likely the effects of the vaccine, 2 would die shortly after from what were somewhat likely to have been the effects of the vaccine...and 17 would die from having been shot or beaten to death.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
So, on those figures, to put it another way, if there are a million cases where a police officer interacts with someone to administer the vaccine, 1 person would die shortly after from what were quite likely the effects of the vaccine, 2 would die shortly after from what were somewhat likely to have been the effects of the vaccine...and 17 would die from having been shot or beaten to death.

I'm afraid you've entirely missed the point here. The point is that a 1 in 60,000 chance of dying in an encounter means there is no reason to freak out every time you encounter police. 1 in 60,000 or 1 in 6 million, doesn't matter. Numbers that low are not worth worrying over. Not for the individual who has encountered police, anyway. If the numbers are too high, we as a society can discuss reforming the system, but that is a different thing entirely than whether an individual should be afraid.

There is something like a 1 in 100,000 you will die when riding on an airplane. Is it worth getting anxious over that to the point where you have to take sedatives every time you fly? Fear of flying is called a phobia, which means an irrational fear. It's irrational because the probability is low. Life is too short to get anxious over every tiny chance of something calamitous happening to you. Anxiety can make people do very irrational things, like driving an extra 50 miles to avoid driving across a bridge, or running from angry police. It's also bad for our health, BTW. But the media traffics in it. They literally sell it to us.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,081
21,203
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I'm afraid you've entirely missed the point here. The point is that a 1 in 60,000 chance of dying in an encounter means there is no reason to freak out every time you encounter police. 1 in 60,000 or 1 in 6 million, doesn't matter. Numbers that low are not worth worrying over. Not for the individual who has encountered police, anyway. If the numbers are too high, we as a society can discuss reforming the system, but that is a different thing entirely than whether an individual should be afraid.

There is something like a 1 in 100,000 you will die when riding on an airplane. Is it worth getting anxious over that to the point where you have to take sedatives every time you fly? Fear of flying is called a phobia, which means an irrational fear. It's irrational because the probability is low. Life is too short to get anxious over every tiny chance of something calamitous happening to you. Anxiety can make people do very irrational things, like driving an extra 50 miles to avoid driving across a bridge, or running from angry police. It's also bad for our health, BTW. But the media traffics in it. They literally sell it to us.
So are you saying that you find the policing in this country to be okay and within the margins of statistical rarity that are acceptable?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
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So are you saying that you find the policing in this country to be okay and within the margins of statistical rarity that are acceptable?

My response to this is to wonder if anyone can understand a simple logical point without going off on an irrelevant tangent as PMV did, or posing a question based on a straw man, as you just did.

I think the point I made is easy enough to understand if you want to use your brain in this discussion instead of just your feels.

So my answer is this: re-read my post and decide whether you really think I said what you just claimed I said.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,081
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Well, thje first thing I'm saying that you're ignoring the logical points I'm making. And the second is, that your question is a straw man. Nope, never said that. Wasn't my point. And you know it.
Okay so are you saying that death by police is so statistically irrelevant and due to the other factors that police have to face, which you've you've been mentioning, then this is an acceptable number for deaths by police?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Okay so are you saying that death by police is so statistically irrelevant and due to the other factors that police have to face, which you've you've been mentioning, then this is an acceptable number for deaths by police?

Yes, because I'm all about "acceptible deaths." Oh wait, I actually said nothing about "acceptable number of deaths." Did you read the discussion that led up to the point I made in that post? Hint: it has to do with the anxiety that people may experience in an individual encounter with police because they have read and viewed so much media that overcooks the risk. And the irrational behavior which can ensue, like running from police. And my criticism here is far more of the media's overcooking than it is with the individual who runs.

This isn't about whether we should reform the way police are trained. We should. And yes, we have more killings than other countries, due to a variety of factors: too many guns in private hands, too much glorification of violence in our media and popular culture, police officers being trained to be aggressive rather than to de-escalate.

I, however, am looking at a different aspect of this which has to do with media coverage and how it is not helping us. And I've been specific as to its negative impacts.

Now if someone wants to reply to these points I actually made, feel free. But I'm done responding to straw mannery.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,730
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Depends upon the nature of the encounter, though. What the purpose of the interaction is, what environment it occurs in, and, of course, your race and gender. Likely to be significantly higher for certain groups in certain contexts.

1 in 60,000, though, is still higher than I would have expected - it's _way_ higher than the fatality rate for the COVID vaccine, for example. Odd that anti-vaxxers don't take the same highly-risk-averse attitude to 'any sort of contact with police officers'.




Otherwise known as "news". That's what news media is for - covering news stories.

I want the media to cover these stories. People get blown away inside a church. State troopers killed but somehow those perps are taken in without so much as a scratch. Yet black people are being killed in their sleep.

How long had the Breonna Taylor case gone on? Local law enforcement failed to file charges against detectives who lied to obtain the warrant or the cops who shot her. No charges were filed until the Federal govt stepped in with civil rights violations. Anyone wonder why some people protest violently when they feel they have no other recourse?
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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Yes, because I'm all about "acceptible deaths." Oh wait, I actually said nothing about "acceptable number of deaths." Did you read the discussion that led up to the point I made in that post? Hint: it has to do with the anxiety that people may experience in an individual encounter with police because they have read and viewed so much media that overcooks the risk. And the irrational behavior which can ensue, like running from police. And my criticism here is far more of the media's overcooking than it is with the individual who runs.

This isn't about whether we should reform the way police are trained. We should. And yes, we have more killings than other countries, due to a variety of factors: too many guns in private hands, too much glorification of violence in our media and popular culture, police officers being trained to be aggressive rather than to de-escalate.

I, however, am looking at a different aspect of this which has to do with media coverage and how it is not helping us. And I've been specific as to its negative impacts.

Now if someone wants to reply to these points I actually made, feel free. But I'm done responding to straw mannery.
Do you think that some of the reason it happens less than it does even though it already happens too much, is because these cases have started to become public now finally with video being recorded, is that black people are fucking scared shitless of interacting with the police and they are taking their lessons of how they should act as second class citizens around the police and taking the shit from them?

If these incidences weren't so public there'd be a lot more second class citizens dying because they wouldn't be acting like meek citizens with no rights because they would have no idea how fucked up the cops really are.
 
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Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,538
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Whenever I hear righties say, "just comply and nothing will happen". I remind them of Tamir Rice.

There is a reason why it's mostly young men doing stupid shit that get killed.

Yep. They are going to be strangely quiet here, and I hope so many people see how obvious their racism is.

How come no one tried to defend this?


Because these statistics give context and perspective. They don't want this because then people will be less freaked out and hence less motivated to obsessively read and view the news coverage.

Obviously some stats they will because it's easy to mislead. They won't have a problem reporting that black people are about 3 times more likely to be killed in a lifetime by cops, but then not adjust for things like crime. Lightning has similar annual number as unarmed black men and is 5x more likely to strike and kill men, but it's not because it's sexist.


 
Mar 11, 2004
23,280
5,721
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Why in the fuck are you people talking about COVID vaccine deaths? Oh woolfe, the defender of police tasing a little girl.

Ah, and Maxima is here to let us know that racism is ok because like stats show you'll die from heart disease, so who cares if black people are beaten to death? Then again, this is the same clown that tried laughing off that black people lose 25% of home value compared to white people purely because of racism.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,548
15,425
136
Yes, because I'm all about "acceptible deaths." Oh wait, I actually said nothing about "acceptable number of deaths." Did you read the discussion that led up to the point I made in that post? Hint: it has to do with the anxiety that people may experience in an individual encounter with police because they have read and viewed so much media that overcooks the risk. And the irrational behavior which can ensue, like running from police. And my criticism here is far more of the media's overcooking than it is with the individual who runs.

This isn't about whether we should reform the way police are trained. We should. And yes, we have more killings than other countries, due to a variety of factors: too many guns in private hands, too much glorification of violence in our media and popular culture, police officers being trained to be aggressive rather than to de-escalate.

I, however, am looking at a different aspect of this which has to do with media coverage and how it is not helping us. And I've been specific as to its negative impacts.

Now if someone wants to reply to these points I actually made, feel free. But I'm done responding to straw mannery.

Why are you only looking at deaths and not use of force? What about stops by race vs crime committed? Are you of the opinion that a majority of stops are not only justified but also applied equally to all races and therefore accept the narrative that black people commit more crime?

Do you think broadening the scope to include actions that involved force would help or hurt your narrative?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,730
28,908
136
There is a reason why it's mostly young men doing stupid shit that get killed.



How come no one tried to defend this?




Obviously some stats they will because it's easy to mislead. They won't have a problem reporting that black people are about 3 times more likely to be killed in a lifetime by cops, but then not adjust for things like crime. Lightning has similar annual number as unarmed black men and is 5x more likely to strike and kill men, but it's not because it's sexist.


Did Zach include socio-economic factors in his statistics? Poor people are more likely to commit crime. Blacks are disproportionately poor.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,730
28,908
136
One of the main reasons protest violence was kept to a minimum. Something I'm sure makes Fox News and Republicans sad.
CHICAGO — It took 13 months and an order from a judge for authorities in Chicago to release video showing a police officer firing 16 bullets into Laquan McDonald, a Black teenager, on a busy roadway in 2014.

Before that order, Chicago officials followed what was, at the time, a familiar law-enforcement playbook: Issue a vague, even inaccurate, initial statement. Fight the release of videos and other evidence for months on end. Use a drawn-out investigation as cover for silence.

Over the last few weeks in Memphis, Tennessee, it became clear how much has changed, as officials responded to the police beating and death of Tyre Nichols, a Black 29-year-old.



After Tyre Nichols Death, Officials' Moves Reflect a Shift in Handling Police Violence (yahoo.com)
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
8,185
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I haven't really thought about this aspect of the murder. This seems to be a common factor in these situations. I've heard the cops do this to disorient the targets so they willl be confused and comply.

71 Commands in 13 Minutes: When Tyre Nichols Couldn't Comply With Impossible Orders, Police Assaulted Him


Another factor.
At least two out of of five Memphis police officers charged with murder in the fatal beatdown of Tyre Nichols joined the force after the department relaxed its hiring requirements.

Tadarrius Bean and Demetrius Haley both joined the Memphis Police Department in Aug. 2020, NBC News reported, more than two years after the department dramatically loosened the education qualifications to become an officer.

Recruits no longer needed an associate’s degree or 54 college credit hours to join the force, and could get by with five years of work experience, Action 5 reported.

Loosening the required qualifications however means that the department is ultimately getting “less desirable” job candidates, Mike Alcazar, an adjunct professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a retired NYPD detective, told The Post.

“They’re desperate. They want police officers,” Alcazar said. “They’re going through it, they check off some boxes, saying, ‘Ok, they’re good enough, get them on.”

The department showed signs of struggle with recruiting new police officers, offering $15,000 signing bonuses in 2021 and 2022, Fox 13 reported.

As of Jan. 2022, MPD was down roughly 500 officers, the news outlet reported, citing the Memphis Police Association

Last year, the department lowered its standards again for new recruits, nixing the timed physical ability test and cutting college education requirements from 54 credit hours to just 24.

The department also revealed that was even offering waivers for people who have been convicted on felony charges.

“Police departments have to take the screening process of candidates to be police officers seriously and not rush to hire officers that might not be qualified,” Alcazar said.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,650
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There is a reason why it's mostly young men doing stupid shit that get killed.



How come no one tried to defend this?




Obviously some stats they will because it's easy to mislead. They won't have a problem reporting that black people are about 3 times more likely to be killed in a lifetime by cops, but then not adjust for things like crime. Lightning has similar annual number as unarmed black men and is 5x more likely to strike and kill men, but it's not because it's sexist.



Are you denying we have a police violence problem in this country?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,730
28,908
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There is a reason why it's mostly young men doing stupid shit that get killed.
I see your logic

Deadly shit like killing a bunch of people in church and assassinating state troopers warrants an injury free arrest

Stupid shit?
Death.

BTW - Have you watched the video? Are you saying the stupid act was Tyre running? Have you seen the reason he ran?
 
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rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,410
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I haven't really thought about this aspect of the murder. This seems to be a common factor in these situations. I've heard the cops do this to disorient the targets so they willl be confused and comply.

71 Commands in 13 Minutes: When Tyre Nichols Couldn't Comply With Impossible Orders, Police Assaulted Him

Yeah, this is something that is addressed by training in good agencies, and followed by good officers.

One person gives commands. Everyone else shuts the fuck up. It eliminates contradictory commands, reduces confusion all around, gives everyone a better chance to register what is being said.

Hell, if it’s viable you’re supposed to ask why they aren’t complying. Maybe the person has a disability. Sometimes it’s a very stupid objection like not wanting to dirty their clothes. But at least the officer can then explain, look yeah your pants are gonna get dirty, no way around it, we need you to comply. Under stress peoples thinking goes to shit and officers need to slow things down.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,285
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Yeah, this is something that is addressed by training in good agencies, and followed by good officers.

One person gives commands. Everyone else shuts the fuck up. It eliminates contradictory commands, reduces confusion all around, gives everyone a better chance to register what is being said.

Hell, if it’s viable you’re supposed to ask why they aren’t complying. Maybe the person has a disability. Sometimes it’s a very stupid objection like not wanting to dirty their clothes. But at least the officer can then explain, look yeah your pants are gonna get dirty, no way around it, we need you to comply. Under stress peoples thinking goes to shit and officers need to slow things down.
My girlfriend is legally blind, I'm terrified by any possible encounter with police, because I know what could happen if they're trying to give her vague instructions she can't immediately comply with. We're just lucky we're white.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
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Why are you only looking at deaths and not use of force? What about stops by race vs crime committed? Are you of the opinion that a majority of stops are not only justified but also applied equally to all races and therefore accept the narrative that black people commit more crime?

Do you think broadening the scope to include actions that involved force would help or hurt your narrative?

We don't have any data on use of force short of killing. Although I assume that the results of using force are on a continuum, and that there is a rough similarity between proportion of deaths by race and proportion of injuries by race. Because that's the best we can do with what data we have.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,548
15,425
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We don't have any data on use of force short of killing. Although I assume that the results of using force are on a continuum, and that there is a rough similarity between proportion of deaths by race and proportion of injuries by race. Because that's the best we can do with what data we have.

That may be but it’s a stretch to assume that the number of incidents where force is used but does not result in death is similar to the amount of incidents that result in death. Which brings us back to the original point; is there a legitimate point for people concerned with police brutality even if the media didn’t report on any incidences?

Also, the fact that we don’t have that kind of data makes it harder to have effective policy, does it not?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,634
50,860
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That is just an example of arbitrary risk aversion, where people freak out about certain tiny risks, and ignore others which are statistically more significant. Like worrying more over a nuclear meltdown than over dying from pollution even though you're about 10000x more likely to die from pollution. Practically everyone does this.



This is wrong. Because the media decides first and foremost what is news. As I said, 1000 die to police every year. The national media reports on what, 3 or 4 of these each year? And what is their selection criteria? That the victim is black and there is at least a chance it was a bad shoot/bad kill. Who got to decide that? Who got to decide that certain lives matter more than others? We think the police believe that certain lives matter more than others, and that is bad. Why is OK that the media thinks so too?

Worse still is the manner in which they choose to report on these cases. The initial reporting always pushes a racial narrative regardless of the facts. Even in this case with 5 black cops we have Van Jones writing an editorial reminding us that "black people can be racist towards black people too." Sure, in theory, but are blacks cops on average as racist toward black people as white cops? And all 5 of them? CNN pushes this narrative every time because it draws people in and increases their revenues.

And they don't give any stats like the ones I gave above. Never. It's obvious why they make their cases invalidly with anecdotes and never use statistics. Because these statistics give context and perspective. They don't want this because then people will be less freaked out and hence less motivated to obsessively read and view the news coverage.

National media is behaving in a socially irresponsible manner here. And they're doing it for money. What we need is more non-profit news like PBS here because corporate media sux.
I agree with you that the national media is irresponsible in how it handles police killings, looking for maximum conflict and sensationalism for the least amount of work. They don't think some lives matter more than others - if people got just as outraged over deaths of other ethnicities they would happily report on that too.

That being said yes, depending on how you operationalize racism at least in terms of inflicting police violence against black people the race of the police officer doesn't mean much. Black cops are as 'racist' against other black people as white cops are. Anecdotally I saw a lot of this among the people I met who worked at the border patrol in San Ysidro. Quite a few of them were Hispanic and I had one specifically tell me he 'wasn't one of those type of Mexicans'. Police often encounter certain ethnic groups disproportionately in the course of their jobs and it can be easy in those circumstances to develop racist attitudes towards them. This is often perpetuated by a toxic police culture where this sort of racism is tolerated or in some cases actively encouraged.

Broadly speaking police violence is inflicted disproportionately on certain ethnic groups but it's hard to tease that out as some groups encounter police more frequently. Some people argue that it's because they commit more crimes, which may very well be true, but they also see more cops. (stop and frisk comes to mind)

 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,730
28,908
136
I agree with you that the national media is irresponsible in how it handles police killings, looking for maximum conflict and sensationalism for the least amount of work. They don't think some lives matter more than others - if people got just as outraged over deaths of other ethnicities they would happily report on that too.

That being said yes, depending on how you operationalize racism at least in terms of inflicting police violence against black people the race of the police officer doesn't mean much. Black cops are as 'racist' against other black people as white cops are. Anecdotally I saw a lot of this among the people I met who worked at the border patrol in San Ysidro. Quite a few of them were Hispanic and I had one specifically tell me he 'wasn't one of those type of Mexicans'. Police often encounter certain ethnic groups disproportionately in the course of their jobs and it can be easy in those circumstances to develop racist attitudes towards them. This is often perpetuated by a toxic police culture where this sort of racism is tolerated or in some cases actively encouraged.

Broadly speaking police violence is inflicted disproportionately on certain ethnic groups but it's hard to tease that out as some groups encounter police more frequently. Some people argue that it's because they commit more crimes, which may very well be true, but they also see more cops. (stop and frisk comes to mind)

In the case of the Tyre Nichols coverage what IYO has the media done you would consider irresponsible? Not including Fox in this question.