Black Mothers On Playdate Confronted By Gun Pointing Secret Service Members

[iRONic]

Those pics...

 

[sdifox]

WTF is wrong with these people?

 

[pauldun170]

The 16 year old could be wrong. I was working off memory.

I'm well read on the case, and I don't agree. I do agree the plaintiff was seriously burned, that it wasn't a minor injury. And sure, McDonalds had lawsuits filed against it before, and had paid some settlements. Out of billions of cups of coffee they had sold. The problem is their coffee temp was the same as any other hot coffee. Typical coffee runs 160-190 degrees. McDonalds was in the 180-190 range. If you spill hot coffee on your bare skin, you get burned in seconds. It's why you try not to spill coffee on your skin.

The jury in that case stung McDonalds because their witnesses were arrogant and acted like they didn't give a crap about her injuries. Which had nothing to do with the actual merits of the case.

I will add that this singular case has poisoned jury pools against injury plaintiffs ever since. Seriously, the value of a typical injury claim dropped way off after that case and has never returned since.

In case others are curious
This is a pretty common case study so if you want to stick to quality sources all the major universities should have lectures on this.

According to Stella Liebeck’s attorney, S. Reed Morgan, the jury heard the following evidence in the case:

• By corporate specifications, McDonald's sells its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit;
• Coffee at that temperature, if spilled, causes third-degree burns (the skin is burned away down to the muscle/fatty-tissue layer) in two to seven seconds;
• Third-degree burns do not heal without skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability of the victim for many months, and in some cases, years
• The chairman of the department of mechanical engineering and bio-mechanical engineering at the University of Texas testified that this risk of harm is unacceptable, as did a widely recognized expert on burns, the editor in chief of the leading scholarly publication in the specialty, the Journal of Burn Care and Rehabilitation;
• McDonald's admitted that it has known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years -- the risk was brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits, to no avail;
• From 1982 to 1992, McDonald's coffee burned more than 700 people, many receiving severe burns to the genital area, perineum, inner thighs, and buttocks;
• Not only men and women, but also children and infants, have been burned by McDonald's scalding hot coffee, in some instances due to inadvertent spillage by McDonald's employees;
• At least one woman had coffee dropped in her lap through the service window, causing third-degree burns to her inner thighs and other sensitive areas, which resulted in disability for years;
• Witnesses for McDonald's admitted in court that consumers are unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald's required temperature;
• McDonald's admitted that it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not;
• McDonald's witnesses testified that it did not intend to turn down the heat -- As one witness put it: “No, there is no current plan to change the procedure that we're using in that regard right now;”
• McDonald's admitted that its coffee is “not fit for consumption” when sold because it causes severe scalds if spilled or drunk;
• Liebeck's treating physician testified that her injury was one of the worst scald burns he had ever seen.

Moreover, the Shriner’s Burn Institute in Cincinnati had published warnings to the franchise food industry that its members were unnecessarily causing serious scald burns by serving beverages above 130 degrees Fahrenheit.

In refusing to grant a new trial in the case, Judge Robert Scott called McDonald's behavior “callous.” Moreover, “the day after the verdict, the news media documented that coffee at the McDonald's in Albuquerque [where Liebeck was burned] is now sold at 158 degrees. This will cause third-degree burns in about 60 seconds, rather than in two to seven seconds [so that], the margin of safety has been increased as a direct consequence of this verdict.”

McDonalds Coffee Case Facts | Texas Trial Lawyers Association

What a lot of people get wrong about the infamous 1994 McDonald’s hot coffee lawsuit

Adam Ruins Everything explains that the case wasn’t about greed, but about a working-class woman forcing a big company to make its product safer.

www.vox.com

McDonald’s quality assurance manager testified that McDonald’s coffee, at the temperature at which it was poured into Styrofoam cups, was not fit for consumption because it would burn the mouth and throat.

"Know the Facts:" Resources for Consumers

Liebeck v. McDonald’s

Stella Liebeck, the 79-year-old woman who was severely burned by McDonald’s coffee that she spilled in her lap in 1992.

www.tortmuseum.org

https://repository.law.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1526&context=umlr

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Okay, so Per a local news station with a shit ton of pop up ads so I won't link, the Secret Service said below.
I want to say cuffing and holding them for around 1 hour while their babies sat in the heat is unusually cruel. Ambulance was called after "some time" to check on the babies but come on how can someone think keeping a baby in extreme heat isn't risky.
Why did it take an hour also when you know you aren't looking for these two.

Otherwise I am holding off on judgement until more is known.
Was the Plate reader correct?
Is there someone who drove that car wanted for something? If so why didn't local Police do a door knock?
Is the police report about that plate correct?
Did the Agents have the correct plate number?

"On July 30, Secret Service Uniformed Division Officers were notified by the Metropolitan Police Department of the District of Columbia that a License Plate Reader (LPR) system had identified a vehicle in the vicinity of the White House complex that was connected to criminal activity. Specifically, the officers were informed that a person known to have driven the vehicle was wanted by the Fairfax County, Virginia Police Department in connection with several felonies, and was designated as “armed and dangerous.” A Uniformed Division patrol unit located a vehicle matching the description and license plate number in the 1600 block of Constitution Avenue, NW, and initiated a felony traffic stop. The occupants of the vehicle were briefly detained until it was determined they were not wanted by law enforcement. During the felony traffic stop, a Uniformed Division patrol unit made incidental contact with the suspect vehicle."

 

[woolfe9998]

In case others are curious
This is a pretty common case study so if you want to stick to quality sources all the major universities should have lectures on this.

What a lot of people get wrong about the infamous 1994 McDonald’s hot coffee lawsuit

Adam Ruins Everything explains that the case wasn’t about greed, but about a working-class woman forcing a big company to make its product safer.

www.vox.com

Liebeck v. McDonald’s

Stella Liebeck, the 79-year-old woman who was severely burned by McDonald’s coffee that she spilled in her lap in 1992.

www.tortmuseum.org

Yes, I'm familiar with all of that. But what is missing is the average or typical temperature of coffee. When fresh out of the pot, it will seriously burn you in seconds if you spill it on unclothed skin. This is true of the coffee that comes out of our MoccaMaster in our kitchen. You have to blow on it, let it sit for a few minutes off the heat source before you want to drink it.

The 135 degrees mentioned above as the threshold for serious injury is not a temperature that people prefer to drink coffee at. It's essentially tepid.

 

[pauldun170]

Yes, I'm familiar with all of that. But what is missing is the average or typical temperature of coffee. When fresh out of the pot, it will seriously burn you in seconds if you spill it on unclothed skin. This is true of the coffee that comes out of our MoccaMaster in our kitchen. You have to blow on it, let it sit for a few minutes off the heat source before you want to drink it.

The 135 degrees mentioned above as the threshold for serious injury is not a temperature that people prefer to drink coffee at. It's essentially tepid.

I didn't post the links to respond to you (meaning I wasn't challenging anything you said). The links were for all who were curious about the details of that actual case.

However, to your point, please review page 124 of the University of Miami link

 

[pauldun170]

Okay, so Per a local news station with a shit ton of pop up ads so I won't link, the Secret Service said below.
I want to say cuffing and holding them for around 1 hour while their babies sat in the heat is unusually cruel. Ambulance was called after "some time" to check on the babies but come on how can someone think keeping a baby in extreme heat isn't risky.
Why did it take an hour also when you know you aren't looking for these two.

Otherwise I am holding off on judgement until more is known.
Was the Plate reader correct?
Is there someone who drove that car wanted for something? If so why didn't local Police do a door knock?
Is the police report about that plate correct?
Did the Agents have the correct plate number?

She has a drivers license with her name and address
She has the vehicle registration with her name and address
She has the vehicle insurance with her name and address.
She has a vagina, assuming that it it also has her name and address.

Pretty sure if you are looking for 2 armed males you may want to question why you, and several other Secret service officers late to the party want to hang out with 2 cuffed woman and their screaming babies in 103 degree heat for close to an hour.

I'm committing to full judgement mode. Usually I wait a bit before even jumping into the judgy mcJudgy pool
I'm gonna be super judgey to Secret Service on this.

 

[sdifox]

Yeah all those Secret Service Agents should be fired cuz they are not competent enough to protect POTUS.

 

[woolfe9998]

I didn't post the links to respond to you (meaning I wasn't challenging anything you said). The links were for all who were curious about the details of that actual case.

However, to your point, please review page 124 of the University of Miami link

Read it. It's what one of plaintiff's experts said. Not an independent study. But I don't doubt it because it refers to the coffee temp after brewing is done and it has been sitting around for awhile.

Ideal brewing temp for coffee is 195-205 degrees. Google "coffee ideal brewing temp" and it's right there in bold letters on top. But the coffee maker holds it after brewing is complete at a lower temp, like 160 degrees. The question is, how soon is the coffee served after brewing. Go into any coffee house and you'll see that they don't wait after brewing. Instead, they give a "warning coffee is hot" on their cup or on a sign.

Coffee even at 160 degrees will still seriously burn your skin. Even if McDonalds was liable here because they increased the severity of the burn which was initially caused by her own error, their liability should not have been total. In the law, there is something called "comparative fault" which means if a plaintiff is partially at fault and a defendant is partially at fault, plaintiff receives partial damages.

And the total amount of damages was way out of sync. I've seen people with compound femur fractures resulting in years of rehab get a tenth of what she got. What she got is what you get for being paralyzed for life.

As I said earlier, that case has not been good for injury plaintiffs since. It has tainted the jury pool against them.

 

[pauldun170]

Read it. It's what one of plaintiff's experts said. Not an independent study. But I don't doubt it because it refers to the coffee temp after brewing is done and it has been sitting around for awhile.

Ideal brewing temp for coffee is 195-205 degrees. Google "coffee ideal brewing temp" and it's right there in bold letters on top. But the coffee maker holds it after brewing is complete at a lower temp, like 160 degrees. The question is, how soon is the coffee served after brewing. Go into any coffee house and you'll see that they don't wait after brewing. Instead, they give a "warning coffee is hot" on their cup or on a sign.

Coffee even at 160 degrees will still seriously burn your skin. Even if McDonalds was liable here because they increased the severity of the burn which was initially caused by her own error, their liability should not have been total. In the law, there is something called "comparative fault" which means if a plaintiff is partially at fault and a defendant is partially at fault, plaintiff receives partial damages.

And the total amount of damages was way out of sync. I've seen people with compound femur fractures resulting in years of rehab get a tenth of what she got. What she got is what you get for being paralyzed for life.

As I said earlier, that case has not been good for injury plaintiffs since. It has tainted the jury pool against them.

I don't want to do a deep dive on the McDonalds case but I do feel the need to point out is that with any case, what matters is how the case was presented to the Jury. Not what we can find out in hindsight.

At the time, presenting that restaurant industry serving temp norm was for lower temps, that the temps were inherently unsafe, that McDonalds knew about it, that 700 other people complained about and that McDonalds did nothing is something to seriously consider when viewing this.

(I'm now getting college flashbacks)

 

[HomerJS]

I thought the capital police had jurisdiction for criminal activity in DC? Even in this case where woman tried to crash through White House barrier, capital police chased her down.

Woman shot and killed by Capitol police after chaotic chase from White House

A woman who tried to force her car through a White House security fence Thursday afternoon was shot and killed by police after a 12-block chase past the Capitol, which was locked down for a half-hour, authorities said.The suspect — a dental hygienist with a history of mental issues, according to...

www.nbcnews.com

 

[woolfe9998]

I thought the capital police had jurisdiction for criminal activity in DC?

Dunno. It may depend on whether the crime happens on federal property or not. But investigating a common crime like auto theft is something I've never heard of for the Secret Service. AFAIK, they protect POTUSES and other officials, and have some involvement with counterfeiting and cyber-crime.

 

[outriding]

Yeah all those Secret Service Agents should be fired cuz they are not competent enough to protect POTUS.

Well they should more than adequate for this POTUS

 

[soulcougher73]

I also wonder who puts an infant in a water fountain. The story as presented is very strange.

I think your brain is broken. You read a story about some wtf stuff that happened and you focus on playing in a fountain.

 

[sandorski]

I'm well read on the case, and I don't agree. I do agree the plaintiff was seriously burned, that it wasn't a minor injury. And sure, McDonalds had lawsuits filed against it before, and had paid some settlements. Out of billions of cups of coffee they had sold. The problem is their coffee temp was the same as any other hot coffee. Typical coffee runs 160-190 degrees. McDonalds was in the 180-190 range. If you spill hot coffee on your bare skin, you get burned in seconds. It's why you try not to spill coffee on your skin.

The jury in that case stung McDonalds because their witnesses were arrogant and acted like they didn't give a crap about her injuries. Which had nothing to do with the actual merits of the case.

I will add that this singular case has poisoned jury pools against injury plaintiffs ever since. Seriously, the value of a typical injury claim dropped way off after that case and has never returned since.

I vaguely recall Months in the Hospital and multiple Skin Grafts.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

I vaguely recall Months in the Hospital and multiple Skin Grafts.

They both have valid points I’ll summarize
McDonald’s people came with an enormous FUCK YOU attitude and I believe some marketing or manager guy said they serve the coffee extra hot because people like the smell and it helps sales even though several people were burned it was worth it to keep the coffee so hot (sales wise).
The Jury didn’t like these attitudes and intentionally made the judgement far more than what the burn victim asked for.
I believe the burn victim was simply asking for medical bills be covered and nothing else but I could be wrong.
So yeah the jury specifically awarded more damages because the company was so arrogant, yes that big judgement has forced many places to serve coffee less hot.
Yes the burn victim received serious burns that required professional medical care. She did not get a minor boo-boo type burn.

That is all let’s try to stay on topic now.

 

[BoomerD]

I hope they can sue. They should sue. In this case they should sue and the city forced to pay millions. This is one case where suing is justified, and with winning some grossly outrageous monetary award in court. Spilling hot coffee in the lap may not justify a huge settlement, but this case does.

Why should the city be on the hook for something FEDERAL officers did?