Bitter Lemons

[bradly1101]

Aside from a couple of very old junkers that were given to me in high school, I've never had a troublesome car. Yet I (mostly) lurk other car forums where trouble abounds, and I lean toward the boring style the dis/assembly of a manual wheelchair built large for height requires.

I once posted here AutoGuide's Lemon List, and it caused a bit of controversy. It well matches my experience and that of that other forum's posters.

Whether it's defective parts, poor assembly, bad project mgmt., improper preparation................it's hard to believe that it's getting worse in 2018.

Just one area causing grief is bubbling paint on the aluminum hoods of the lemon-scented cars. So many affected. I read up on differences in aluminum and steel paint preparation. I found the vendor for the main car co. where they described their alum./steel combo process. But the aluminum needs etching....

I know it's all belt tightening and profit forecasting, but man, sudden stalling and electronic glitches galore concern me as these vehicles may not operate as intended near anyone including their occupants.

Step it up manufacturers, customers and safety ought to outweigh shareholders. That's the only way to have a sterling reputation.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Not sure what the reliability statistics are for the last few years, and whether cars overall are becoming less reliable. I have been buying cars for 40+ years though, and reliability today is a quantum leap above that of only 20 years or so ago. I live in the rust belt, and routinely would have serious rust in 5 to 10 years when I first moved here in the 70s. Now I have a 13 year old honda civic that has really no visible rust, unless one looks at the car closely. I have only had one major repair in about 150k miles. Previously, very few if any of my vehicles would make it to 100k.

As for safety features, automakers are making great strides. Some of the changes are government mandated, but many are not. Stability control, traction control, antilock brakes, automatic emergency braking, collision detection, and a host of other electronic safety measures are now available, and more and more of them are becoming standard.

I have to say, though, I do wonder ten years down the road how many electrical problems new cars of this area will show, due to all these electronic safety features, as well as the myriad electronic entertainment and comfort features we are seeing. I also wonder how the proliferation of turbo engines will affect reliability in a few years. Perhaps with the precise engine management systems and better oil we have today, they will be fine, but turbos used to be a source of problems.

 

[Yuriman]

Just one area causing grief is bubbling paint on the aluminum hoods of the lemon-scented cars. So many affected. I read up on differences in aluminum and steel paint preparation. I found the vendor for the main car co. where they described their alum./steel combo process. But the aluminum needs etching....

Plenty of manufacturers had this figured out decades ago. I don't see much (any?) paint bubbling on Audis, or on Honda's Insight - and that one was basically a one-off.

I have to say, though, I do wonder ten years down the road how many electrical problems new cars of this area will show, due to all these electronic safety features, as well as the myriad electronic entertainment and comfort features we are seeing. I also wonder how the proliferation of turbo engines will affect reliability in a few years. Perhaps with the precise engine management systems and better oil we have today, they will be fine, but turbos used to be a source of problems.

Toyota is still avoiding them, if that says anything. And, Toyota's engines are basically the most efficient on the road, at nearly 40% thermal efficiency over a pretty broad island.

 

[bradly1101]

Plenty of manufacturers had this figured out decades ago. I don't see much (any?) paint bubbling on Audis, or on Honda's Insight - and that one was basically a one-off.



Toyota is still avoiding them, if that says anything. And, Toyota's engines are basically the most efficient on the road, at nearly 40% thermal efficiency over a pretty broad island.

Toyoya is a bit of an outlier. Rather then feed impractical new model desires, Toy generally improves good designs over the number of years of a model. When I see posters say, "I'm not getting an X because the design is from 2011," I hang my head. But what if it's a very, very good design that is well liked and updated? To me that wins over new and possibly troublesome models. Toyota even has successful (but restrained) model launches. Am I an adult buying a car or a kid who can't wait to show off his new phone?

 

[rstrohkirch]

A lot of people lease.

But what if it's a very, very good design that is well liked and updated? To me that wins over new and possibly troublesome models. Toyota even has successful (but restrained) model launches. Am I an adult buying a car or a kid who can't wait to show off his new phone?

A lot of people lease. It doesn't matter if the car has problems 3 or 4 years down the road to these individuals.

 

[JCH13]

There are a number of new technologies coming to market these days. DI, turbocharging, aluminum body panels, hybrid technology, self-driving features, and other technologies are being introduced or becoming more common. With the wider application of these technologies and exposure to new users comes learning. For example: the very first fuel injection systems were not as good as the latest and greatest carburetors of the day, but over time fuel injectors became far superior in every performance metric. The first automatic transmissions were junk compared to the available manual transmissions, and now automatics can (in some cases) deliver superior fuel economy and driving performance compared to today's manuals.

There are just some growing pains right now.

 

[bradly1101]

A lot of people lease.


A lot of people lease. It doesn't matter if the car has problems 3 or 4 years down the road to these individuals.

But banking on those few years being trouble-free seems impossible given the early complaints.

 

[frozentundra123456]

But banking on those few years being trouble-free seems impossible given the early complaints.

Still would like to see some documentation of all these "early complaints" from a reliable statistical study by someone like consumer reports or JD Power. IMO, some complaint forum on the internet does not really prove new cars are becoming more troublesome, Obviously, millions of cars are sold each year, and each car has thousands of parts, so simply by chance there will be some troublesome vehicles. That does not really prove overall that cars are becoming more troublesome though.

 

[Kaido]

I have been buying cars for 40+ years though, and reliability today is a quantum leap above that of only 20 years or so ago.

It really is. A car from 1999 is a vastly different machine from a 2016 vehicle, even though '99 still sounds "new" to me, lol.

And this applies even to low-end cars as well. I've had two Kia Souls & absolutely loved them, no major problems with either one, and that's a vehicle that originally started at like $14k. I've had two friends purchase 2016 Chevy Cruze sedans recently, both for around $10k used, and both are phenomenal vehicles...nice ride, easy to steer, crazy-good highway gas mileage, an interior that doesn't feel like it's going to fall apart, etc. They've really figured out how to dial in the hardware to easily last to 100k miles these days!

I remember my dad telling me how much better we had it growing up, especially in the 90's, with radios, air conditioning, steel-belted tires, etc. He said changing tires was a seemingly weekly activity, as was dumping oil into the car. Whereas my buddy just hit 100,000 miles on his Honda Fit EV & has only ever had to change the tires out once...literally nothing else, outside of wiper blades & wiper fluid.

 

[bradly1101]

It really is. A car from 1999 is a vastly different machine from a 2016 vehicle, even though '99 still sounds "new" to me, lol.

And this applies even to low-end cars as well. I've had two Kia Souls & absolutely loved them, no major problems with either one, and that's a vehicle that originally started at like $14k. I've had two friends purchase 2016 Chevy Cruze sedans recently, both for around $10k used, and both are phenomenal vehicles...nice ride, easy to steer, crazy-good highway gas mileage, an interior that doesn't feel like it's going to fall apart, etc. They've really figured out how to dial in the hardware to easily last to 100k miles these days!

I remember my dad telling me how much better we had it growing up, especially in the 90's, with radios, air conditioning, steel-belted tires, etc. He said changing tires was a seemingly weekly activity, as was dumping oil into the car. Whereas my buddy just hit 100,000 miles on his Honda Fit EV & has only ever had to change the tires out once...literally nothing else, outside of wiper blades & wiper fluid.

The big trouble areas it seem are cabin electronics and safety systems in our new, advanced vehicular era. Teslas, Suburus, FCA's (Chry,Jeep,Fiat,Alpha,Dodge,Ram?), and others suffer in Consumer Reports' surveys of owners' repair experiences as well as those with the infamous ZF-9 tran. Eek!. You have to pay $35/ year for the incredible wealth of testing and reliability info about so much that is Consumer Reports, and I'd break my terms if I shared screenshots.

Unsurprisingly Toyota's electronic systems are rated above average in reliability.

I bought their top-rated mattress, sleep is different and much better, but the last one was old.

 

[Kaido]

The big trouble areas it seem are cabin electronics and safety systems in our new, advanced vehicular era. Teslas, Suburus, FCA's (Chry,Jeep,Fiat,Alpha,Dodge,Ram?), and others suffer in Consumer Reports' surveys of owners' repair experiences as well as those with the infamous ZF-9 tran. Eek!. You have to pay $35/ year for the incredible wealth of testing and reliability info about so much that is Consumer Reports, and I'd break my terms if I shared screenshots.

Unsurprisingly Toyota's electronic systems are rated above average in reliability.

I bought their top-rated mattress, sleep is different and much better, but the last one was old.

As much of a lemon as my Jeep Renegade is, really the only two problems it boils down to are (1) faulty electronics, and (2) a crummy transmission. If they could fix the electronics & stick in like a traditional 6-speed automatic (or even a good-quality CVT), I'd be a pretty happy camper. Which annoys me, because I really like the car - it's compact, it's wide inside & fits me really well, the price wasn't bonkers, does great in the snow, etc.

I've considered trading it in for a newer model (the first-year 2015 models had massive problems, compared to later years) & getting a stick-shift (to bypass the 9-speed tranny issues), but I sit in traffic too much to want to go back to a manual for my daily-driver. Well, that and I've gotten burned with every Dodge I've ever had, and now Jeep (under the FCA umbrella) and have not been pleased with their response to my issues.

Then again, I've read of similar issues with with the Teslas. There's a dude on one of the forums who has an issue list with his Model X that is as long as detailed as mine was for my Renegade. Sometimes you just get a dud.

 

[bradly1101]

As much of a lemon as my Jeep Renegade is, really the only two problems it boils down to are (1) faulty electronics, and (2) a crummy transmission. If they could fix the electronics & stick in like a traditional 6-speed automatic (or even a good-quality CVT), I'd be a pretty happy camper. Which annoys me, because I really like the car - it's compact, it's wide inside & fits me really well, the price wasn't bonkers, does great in the snow, etc.

I've considered trading it in for a newer model (the first-year 2015 models had massive problems, compared to later years) & getting a stick-shift (to bypass the 9-speed tranny issues), but I sit in traffic too much to want to go back to a manual for my daily-driver. Well, that and I've gotten burned with every Dodge I've ever had, and now Jeep (under the FCA umbrella) and have not been pleased with their response to my issues.

Then again, I've read of similar issues with with the Teslas. There's a dude on one of the forums who has an issue list with his Model X that is as long as detailed as mine was for my Renegade. Sometimes you just get a dud.

A RAV4 starts at $28.7K for the AWD Adventure trim.

 

[Kaido]

A RAV4 starts at $28.7K for the AWD Adventure trim.

I hit Toyota up last year for a test-drive - little bit too tight of an interior for me, at least on the current model. Going to test-drive the 2019 redesign when it's available this winter because it's supposed to be both longer & wider, so hopefully it has an interior that fits me better. Although I guess that then makes it a first-gen car, as it's a full redesign, and I'm not too keen on first-gen designs after the Renegade, lol.

 

[frozentundra123456]

The big trouble areas it seem are cabin electronics and safety systems in our new, advanced vehicular era. Teslas, Suburus, FCA's (Chry,Jeep,Fiat,Alpha,Dodge,Ram?), and others suffer in Consumer Reports' surveys of owners' repair experiences as well as those with the infamous ZF-9 tran. Eek!. You have to pay $35/ year for the incredible wealth of testing and reliability info about so much that is Consumer Reports, and I'd break my terms if I shared screenshots.

Unsurprisingly Toyota's electronic systems are rated above average in reliability.

I bought their top-rated mattress, sleep is different and much better, but the last one was old.

Well, anybody that is interested can go to a library and check out the annual auto issues to see reliability data, so it is no big secret. Tesla I consider a fringe case, more of a toy/status symbol than a mainstream vehicle. As for suburu, for the latest data, only one model is worse than average, while the rest are average to much better than average. That is only a relative ranking though. I could not find the absolute number of defects year by year. As for the chrysler models, except for Dodge Ram, they arent fringe models like Tesla, but certainly are not very popular or at the top of the reliability charts. (Not to mention being butt ugly IMO for a lot of models!!)