Bite 'The Big One' . . .

CaptnKirk

Lifer
Jul 25, 2002
10,053
0
71
Well, actually 'FIGHTING' (New York Times)

Editorial commentary -

In the wake of the bombing of the U.N. office in Baghdad, some "terrorism experts" (By the way, how do you get to be a terrorism expert? Can you get a B.A. in terrorism or do you just have to appear on Fox News?) have argued that the U.S. invasion of Iraq is a failure because all it's doing is attracting terrorists to Iraq and generating more hatred toward America.

I have no doubt that the U.S. presence in Iraq is attracting all sorts of terrorists and Islamists to oppose the U.S. I also have no doubt that politicians and intellectuals in the nearby Arab states are rooting against America in Iraq because they want Arabs and the world to believe that the corrupt autocracies that have so long dominated Arab life, and failed to deliver for their people, are the best anyone can hope for.

But I totally disagree that this is a sign that everything is going wrong in Iraq. The truth is exactly the opposite.
We are attracting all these opponents to Iraq because they understand this war is The Big One. They don't believe their own propaganda. They know this is not a war for oil. They know this is a war over ideas and values and governance. They know this war is about Western powers, helped by the U.N., coming into the heart of their world to promote more decent, open, tolerant, women-friendly, pluralistic governments by starting with Iraq ? a country that contains all the main strands of the region: Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds.

You'd think from listening to America's European and Arab critics that we'd upset some bucolic native culture and natural harmony in Iraq, as if the Baath Party were some colorful local tribe out of National Geographic. Alas, our opponents in Iraq, and their fellow travelers, know otherwise. They know they represent various forms of clan and gang rule, and various forms of religious and secular totalitarianism ? from Talibanism to Baathism. And they know that they need external enemies to thrive and justify imposing their demented visions.

In short, America's opponents know just what's at stake in the postwar struggle for Iraq, which is why they flock there: beat America's ideas in Iraq and you beat them out of the whole region; lose to America there, lose everywhere.

One of the most interesting conversations I had in Baghdad was with Muhammed A. al-Da'mi, a literature professor at Baghdad University and author of "Arabian Mirrors and Western Soothsayers." He has spent a lifetime studying the interactions between East and West.

"Cultures can't be closed on themselves for long without paying a price," he explained. "But ours has been a vestigial and closed culture for many years now. The West needed us in the past and now we need it. This is the circle of history. Essentially [what you are seeing here] is a cultural collision. . . . I am optimistic insofar as I believe that my country ? and I am a pan-Arab nationalist ? is going to benefit from this encounter with the more advanced society, and we are going pay at the same time. . . . Your experience in Iraq is going to create two reactions: one is hypersensitivity, led by the Islamists, and the other is welcoming, led by the secularists. [But you have to understand] that what you are doing is a penetration of one culture into another. If you succeed here, Iraq could change the habits and customs of the people in the whole area."

So, the terrorists get it. Iraqi liberals get it. The Bush team talks as if it gets it, but it doesn't act like it. The Bush team tells us, rightly, that this nation-building project is the equivalent of Germany in 1945, and yet, so far, it has approached the postwar in Iraq as if it's Grenada in 1982.

We may fail, but not because we have attracted terrorists who understand what's at stake in Iraq. We may fail because of the utter incompetence with which the Pentagon leadership has handled the postwar. (We don't even have enough translators there, let alone M.P.'s, and the media network we've set up there to talk to Iraqis is so bad we'd be better off buying ads on Al Jazeera.) We may fail because the Bush team thinks it can fight The Big One in the Middle East ? while cutting taxes at home, shrinking the U.S. Army, changing the tax code to encourage Americans to buy gas-guzzling cars that make us more dependent on Mideast oil and by gratuitously alienating allies.

We may fail because to win The Big One, we need an American public, and allies, ready to pay any price and bear any burden, but we have a president unable or unwilling to summon either
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
I also have no doubt that politicians and intellectuals in the nearby Arab states are rooting against America in Iraq because they want Arabs and the world to believe that the corrupt autocracies that have so long dominated Arab life, and failed to deliver for their people, are the best anyone can hope for.

That is an interesting statement worthy of discussion.

Are the corrupt autocracies the best that the Arabs can hope for? What dangers do they present to the world by keeping people oppressed and causing to turn to radical leaders?

Will bringing a nation to a free and open society help prevent that radicalism or are Arabs just a backward people that have to live under tyrants to keep them under control?


 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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Originally posted by: etech
I also have no doubt that politicians and intellectuals in the nearby Arab states are rooting against America in Iraq because they want Arabs and the world to believe that the corrupt autocracies that have so long dominated Arab life, and failed to deliver for their people, are the best anyone can hope for.

That is an interesting statement worthy of discussion.

Are the corrupt autocracies the best that the Arabs can hope for? What dangers do they present to the world by keeping people oppressed and causing to turn to radical leaders?

Will bringing a nation to a free and open society help prevent that radicalism or are Arabs just a backward people that have to live under tyrants to keep them under control?

Yeah, Western Christian is going to rescue all ignorant Muslims from the corrupt religeous leaders and government. Again, why are we to assume our culture and religion is better? We have our fair share of problems. There are plenty of sad stores in our own society if we care to dig them up. Why are we imposing our ideals to others instead of letting them discover what is best for themselves. Why are we to assume that they are unable to think or standup for themselves?


 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,762
6,768
126
I thought we were there to prevent an immediate attack with nuclear weapons on the US. What is this 'bring a free and open society to the Arabs' crap?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I thought we were there to prevent an immediate attack with nuclear weapons on the US. What is this 'bring a free and open society to the Arabs' crap?

It is the result of all the Bush and Blair administration folks working away at their easels culminating in their rendition of "The Big Picture"
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I thought we were there to prevent an immediate attack with nuclear weapons on the US. What is this 'bring a free and open society to the Arabs' crap?

It is the result of all the Bush and Blair administration folks working away at their easels culminating in their rendition of "The Big Picture"

Nah, it's been there the whole time and has been there in the past - not just a Bush thing;)

"The United States looks forward to a democratically supported regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the reintegration of Iraq into normal international life." - guess who and when.

CkG
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
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Link

But that was President Clinton. Now we are stuck with the Bushmeister. Party hearty. Open another keg.

"So, the terrorists get it. Iraqi liberals get it. The Bush team talks as if it gets it, but it doesn't act like it. The Bush team tells us, rightly, that this nation-building project is the equivalent of Germany in 1945, and yet, so far, it has approached the postwar in Iraq as if it's Grenada in 1982.

We may fail, but not because we have attracted terrorists who understand what's at stake in Iraq. We may fail because of the utter incompetence with which the Pentagon leadership has handled the postwar. (We don't even have enough translators there, let alone M.P.'s, and the media network we've set up there to talk to Iraqis is so bad we'd be better off buying ads on Al Jazeera.) We may fail because the Bush team thinks it can fight The Big One in the Middle East ? while cutting taxes at home, shrinking the U.S. Army, changing the tax code to encourage Americans to buy gas-guzzling cars that make us more dependent on Mideast oil and by gratuitously alienating allies.

We may fail because to win The Big One, we need an American public, and allies, ready to pay any price and bear any burden, but we have a president unable or unwilling to summon either."
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
PS

We may also fail because it is simply wrong to lie to a nation to start a war when there is absolutely NO credible threat.
 

Bigdude

Golden Member
Oct 9, 1999
1,087
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Again, why are we to assume our culture and religion is better?

Easy answer! We have the largest economy in the World, and our Military is more powerfull than all others combined, and our lead is accelerating! That is proof enough!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,762
6,768
126
Originally posted by: Bigdude
Again, why are we to assume our culture and religion is better?

Easy answer! We have the largest economy in the World, and our Military is more powerfull than all others combined, and our lead is accelerating! That is proof enough!

We weren't trying to prove Bush as the biggest asshole.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Originally posted by: Bigdude
Again, why are we to assume our culture and religion is better?

Easy answer! We have the largest economy in the World, and our Military is more powerfull than all others combined, and our lead is accelerating! That is proof enough!

We weren't trying to prove Bush as the biggest asshole.

But he proved it himself anyway.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I thought we were there to prevent an immediate attack with nuclear weapons on the US. What is this 'bring a free and open society to the Arabs' crap?

It is the result of all the Bush and Blair administration folks working away at their easels culminating in their rendition of "The Big Picture"

Nah, it's been there the whole time and has been there in the past - not just a Bush thing;)

"The United States looks forward to a democratically supported regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the reintegration of Iraq into normal international life." - guess who and when.

CkG

Well ya see CADdy, when the prior administration left, along with the ashtrays and other loose items they took the easels and incomplete art work with them. The new guys start their own based on their talents and what picture they see in their minds eye that they wish to capture and present to the audience... Us.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: CADkindaGUY
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I thought we were there to prevent an immediate attack with nuclear weapons on the US. What is this 'bring a free and open society to the Arabs' crap?

It is the result of all the Bush and Blair administration folks working away at their easels culminating in their rendition of "The Big Picture"

Nah, it's been there the whole time and has been there in the past - not just a Bush thing;)

"The United States looks forward to a democratically supported regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the reintegration of Iraq into normal international life." - guess who and when.

CkG

Well ya see CADdy, when the prior administration left, along with the ashtrays and other loose items they took the easels and incomplete art work with them. The new guys start their own based on their talents and what picture they see in their minds eye that they wish to capture and present to the audience... Us.

No, I'm pretty sure that Bush has continued with Clinton's words(not action;)) Our position has been regime change for a long time - this is not a "new vision" by Bush and/or Blair.
CkG
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: etech
I also have no doubt that politicians and intellectuals in the nearby Arab states are rooting against America in Iraq because they want Arabs and the world to believe that the corrupt autocracies that have so long dominated Arab life, and failed to deliver for their people, are the best anyone can hope for.

That is an interesting statement worthy of discussion.

Are the corrupt autocracies the best that the Arabs can hope for? What dangers do they present to the world by keeping people oppressed and causing to turn to radical leaders?

Will bringing a nation to a free and open society help prevent that radicalism or are Arabs just a backward people that have to live under tyrants to keep them under control?

Yeah, Western Christian is going to rescue all ignorant Muslims from the corrupt religeous leaders and government. Again, why are we to assume our culture and religion is better? We have our fair share of problems. There are plenty of sad stores in our own society if we care to dig them up. Why are we imposing our ideals to others instead of letting them discover what is best for themselves. Why are we to assume that they are unable to think or standup for themselves?

Personally I would like to be isolationist. The problem with that is the radioactive fallout would be carried by the jet stream around the world and affect the US.

So, you tell me rchiu, why are there so many problems in the Middle East? Why can't the Arabs live together without fighting.

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,762
6,768
126
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: etech
I also have no doubt that politicians and intellectuals in the nearby Arab states are rooting against America in Iraq because they want Arabs and the world to believe that the corrupt autocracies that have so long dominated Arab life, and failed to deliver for their people, are the best anyone can hope for.

That is an interesting statement worthy of discussion.

Are the corrupt autocracies the best that the Arabs can hope for? What dangers do they present to the world by keeping people oppressed and causing to turn to radical leaders?

Will bringing a nation to a free and open society help prevent that radicalism or are Arabs just a backward people that have to live under tyrants to keep them under control?

Yeah, Western Christian is going to rescue all ignorant Muslims from the corrupt religeous leaders and government. Again, why are we to assume our culture and religion is better? We have our fair share of problems. There are plenty of sad stores in our own society if we care to dig them up. Why are we imposing our ideals to others instead of letting them discover what is best for themselves. Why are we to assume that they are unable to think or standup for themselves?

Personally I would like to be isolationist. The problem with that is the radioactive fallout would be carried by the jet stream around the world and affect the US.

So, you tell me rchiu, why are there so many problems in the Middle East? Why can't the Arabs live together without fighting.
Maybe it's because Islam will right what is wrong. It's a religion of justice. Something like that would always disturbe the sh!t.

 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
0
0
Originally posted by: etech
Originally posted by: rchiu
Originally posted by: etech
I also have no doubt that politicians and intellectuals in the nearby Arab states are rooting against America in Iraq because they want Arabs and the world to believe that the corrupt autocracies that have so long dominated Arab life, and failed to deliver for their people, are the best anyone can hope for.

That is an interesting statement worthy of discussion.

Are the corrupt autocracies the best that the Arabs can hope for? What dangers do they present to the world by keeping people oppressed and causing to turn to radical leaders?

Will bringing a nation to a free and open society help prevent that radicalism or are Arabs just a backward people that have to live under tyrants to keep them under control?

Yeah, Western Christian is going to rescue all ignorant Muslims from the corrupt religeous leaders and government. Again, why are we to assume our culture and religion is better? We have our fair share of problems. There are plenty of sad stores in our own society if we care to dig them up. Why are we imposing our ideals to others instead of letting them discover what is best for themselves. Why are we to assume that they are unable to think or standup for themselves?

Personally I would like to be isolationist. The problem with that is the radioactive fallout would be carried by the jet stream around the world and affect the US.

So, you tell me rchiu, why are there so many problems in the Middle East? Why can't the Arabs live together without fighting.

Well, maybe if British didn't try to establish a national home for Jewish people in such a highly religiously charged area, there wouldn't be so much problems and most of the problem would be local to middle east. Maybe if American big oil business doesn't get into Saudi Arabia's politic for the fear of loosing big oil contracts, the Arabs who are oppressed by the Saudi royalties won't extend their hatred to the western world. There are fightings in Middle East, struggle between the classes and the rulers and the poor. Just like anywhere else at some point in time in the history. The problem is we as western world are choosing sides based on political, religeous and business interests, and that bring us into the struggle. We are the one that choose to get involved and not the other way around.

I am not advocating isolationism. But why can't exchange established through informational, educational or cultural exchanges? Most of the exchange today between the two worlds are charged with political, religeous and business interest. And that I think is the problem.