Bit of a rant - why the heck is circuit board CAD software so expensive???

[Jeff7]

I was looking for some CAD software to do some quick PCB design. Price range is either free (Express PCB or Eagle Layout Editor), or ludicrously expensive ($150 - $10,000).
Now, ExpressPCB seems like very well-made, flexible software, but its main problem is that it uses a prorpietary, encrypted format, forcing you to buy the circuit boards from ExpressPCB.com, which is fine and dandy, as it's their perogative to make money. But they charge almost $20 per (little) board. More on this later in the post.

Eagle Layout Editor makes a standard format file that can be sent to PCB makers to be made into circuit boards for less than $15 each. However, the interface is lousy, and fairly buggy. It's just not intuitive or easy, like ExpressPCB is. And I've yet to figure out how to make custom components, if it's even possible. Their PCB editor seems to have a steep learning curve - every time I try to move a component anywhere, it tells me that it I can't do it.

And then there's the expensive software packages - they do all this wonderful stuff, like autorouting, and....who knows what else. Can't imagine what they'd have to do to warrant their hundreds-of-dollars pricetags.

Question here is - why are there no open source CAD programs? Or at least cheap ones - something simplistic, yet functional, like ExpressPCB's software, which doesn't include an autorouter, with no extra frills. $30 or less, or even freeware open source. ExpressPCB really doesn't seem like a very complex program - it's almost like an enhanced image editor. Speaking of which, GIMP is quite advanced, and it is free. I imagine it could be modified to include various PCB outlines, and be made to save them in the standard Gerber format.
I did find one program - an unbelievably simple program, which uses a Windows 3.1 style interface - PCB Designer. It lacks any kind of component library, except a few IC outlines, and it also doesn't let you link it to a schematic, so you're sort of doing the wiring blind.

I understand it's a kind of limited market segment, but then, there are those out there that have need for simple, standard-format CAD programs. So why are there no well-made, cheap/free CAD programs out there? Just seems odd is all....

So anyway - this would be my open letter to ExpressPCB.com:
Your services, while I'm sure they're quite excellent, are still a bit expensive compared to what's out there. So maybe find another market:
Sell your software for under $50, with one major change - standard Gerber output files. Other than that, it is quite excellent software.

 

[dighn]

they are meant for professional use and professional tools are always expensive as hell

not sure about why not open source ones though

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: dighn
they are meant for professional use and professional tools are always expensive as hell

not sure about why not open source ones though

Except for the ExpressPCB software - it seems geared more for orders of 10-30 circuit boards. And it lacks an autorouter, and some of the other really advanced features of the expensive stuff, like circuit attenuation and timing calculators. It's more like a circuit paintbrush program. You tell it which components to put down, which really seem to be little more than collections of properly spaced lines and circles, and they are connected by colored lines. The user is responsible for ensuring that everything's properly connected, short of what the schematic-linking will tell you. Even then, it'll only highlight what's supposed to be connected to what - if you do it wrong, it won't say a word. That's how simple it is. Heck, the entire program suite (PCB and schematic software) is under 5MB.

 

[Jeff7]

Bump, if anyone does know of any other cheap, simple CAD software?
That Eagle software drove me nuts; I've just about given up on it. Just doing something simple like deleting components is relatively complex - first, click on a component, then click Edit, then Delete. This must be done for each part or wire to be deleted. There's no keyboard shortcut for Delete.

 

[NuclearNed]

Would MS Visio suffice for you needs? It's relatively cheap.

 

[Mark R]

Eagle is annoying and counter intuitive at first, but once you get used to it it's quick and easy.

For example to delete an object, you select the delete tool (double click if you want to do multiple items) then click the object you want to delete - and it goes. Completely the opposite sequence to how most programs would do it.

But there are some nice features of the interface: If the objects are close together (or overlapping) then the one you picked up gets highlihted (instead of being deleted straight away) - if it's the wrong one click again, and another one highlights. Right click to run the command.

Similarly, the copy, cut and paste commands have totally different meanings in eagle to what you are used to - but again it doesn't take long to get used to. Selections too work differently (you have to right click to run a command on a selection - left clicking will clear the selection and select a single object as above).

As to bugs, well there are very few - I certainly haven't come across one in making several complex designs.

It's worth perservering, because there really is nothing else remotely comparable to eagle for less than several hundred $. Unfortunately, there is very little choice in the low-cost electronics CAD sector - 4 years ago, when I first tried PCB design as a hobby, Eagle was the only choice (I spent days searching for programs, reading reviews and asking around). Things haven't changed much, except that the only realistic alternatives have now disappeared.

The other advantage to eagle is that the cheap board houses take eagle files directly (Olimex and Custompcbs)- no need to set up CAM output, gerber seperations, drill racks, etc.

There is a new alternative called autortrax (Autotrax) - but I tried it at the end of last year, and it was so full of bugs, and so unfinished that it was unusable. It's basically a one man operation, and while it is progressing, it is very slow - and judging by the mailing list still bordering on unusable due to bugs, and a virtually barren parts library.

 

[notfred]

If you want to spenjd the next year or two of your life writing a PCB design program, you're welcome to do so and then give it away for free if you want.

The reason these applications are expensive? Because they're sold to people working for Sony and Dell and Apple and lots of other companies that are building products they plan to sell millions of. Even smaller companies are typically planning on selling at least several hundred of the products they release, and if they were to do custom design work and do a 1-off or 10-off production run for a particular client, I'd guess that most products in that category would be at least $5,000 each.

People selling electronics can afford to buy proper tools. The only people who are interested in a $30 or free stripped-down PCB layout application are EE students.

 

[Jeff7]

It's worth perservering, because there really is nothing else remotely comparable to eagle for less than several hundred $. Unfortunately, there is very little choice in the low-cost electronics CAD sector - 4 years ago, when I first tried PCB design as a hobby, Eagle was the only choice (I spent days searching for programs, reading reviews and asking around). Things haven't changed much, except that the only realistic alternatives have now disappeared.

Darn. Ok, guess I'll stick it out awhile then. I just can't stand the component selection window. If you just need a basic component, like say, "1/4W resistor", or "radial capacitor", it's tough to find. The search feature doesn't work very well either.
And one other thing that irks me - the scroll bars. When you're zoomed out, they're disabled completely, and when you zoom in, they won't go over far enough, so you can't make the schematic as wide as you may want.
Edit: Thanks to a bug in the mouse-wheel zoom, when you zoom all the way out, then zoom back in, the available work space increases, depending on where you put the cursor.

I'm kind of surprised there isn't any open source CAD software. There's so many other utilities out there, especially on Sourceforge, with seemingly limited user bases.
I'll use GIMP again - that seems extremely advanced, especially for freeware.
Or Goldwave - it's an audio editor. It costs around $42, and it's got a lot of pretty good features that I'd expect out of a package costing well over $100.

Would MS Visio suffice for you needs? It's relatively cheap.

Relative to some of the CAD programs, yes. Relative to $50, no, it's expensive. Thanks for the suggestion though.


Be nice if the people at ExpressPCB.com would modify their program to output standard Gerber files, and sell it for maybe $30 to make up for the possible lost PCB business that would accompany. It's got a decent parts library, and it's very flexible in letting you make custom parts.