Bipartisan Congress rebuffs Obama on Libya mission

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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You have to understand that Bush 'wasn't lying', making it clear he had decided on war to his staff, and then their deciding how to argue for his war, "for bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue – weapons of mass destruction – because it was the one reason everyone could agree on," to quote his Pentagon war champion Paul Wolfowitz. Once that decision was made, the effort was to find any evidence that helped the argument and dismiss any that did not.

That's how we had the baseless quotes from administration officials, "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat"; how we had the Vice President going to the CIA to pressure analysts who were not saying what the administratin wanted, repeatedly, how we had the administration putting the lie in the State of the Union we had strong evidence Iraq was actively trying to buy nukes when we did not, for which they later had to apologize after an actual patriot told the truth, for which they attacked his wife, exposing a CIA undercover operative and ended her career in the CIA, which they lied about to cover up and were had Cheney's chief of staff convicted, and sentence commuted by Bush; how we had the administration claiming aluminum tubes in Iraq could only be used for nuclear weapons, ignoring their own experts they were for artillery which also later was confirmed, how the administration chose to mislead the world and even its own Secretary of State to use him for spreading the message, that they had evidence they did not for WMD, hiding that it was almost entirely based on the lies of one man, who they had never met or talked to or knew the identity of, using the information he had supplied German intelligence because he knew it would help him get asylum he wanted when only one in 25 Iraqis trying for asylum in German were getting it, a source German intelligence had told the US was not reliable.

You have to understand to werepossum that's not lying, because they didn't have proof beyond a reasonable doubt Saddam *didn't* have WMD, as they lied.
I know this has little chance of breaching your protective cloud of idiocy, but Saddam actually killed quite a lot of people with weapons of mass destruction, and in fact we found most of the WMD we KNEW he had. The WMDs we THOUGHT he had manufactured almost certainly didn't exist, but most of the world believed they did exist at the time. How someone can believe that Bush had the power to make France and Germany say that Saddam had WMDs when they were violently opposed to our going back in can only be explained by Bush Derangement Syndrome. I won't even attempt to enumerate the several reasons Bush gave for reopening hostilities with Iraq since I well understand that the progressive mind can hold only one thought at a time.

And Richard Armitage outed the CIA "agent", whose neighbors all knew she worked for the CIA as an ANALYST, not an OPERATIVE. Anti-war, progressive, career state department Richard Armitage.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
126
The usual suspects are here in force not looking at what is going on currently, but drawing conclusions based on what the "other side" did a decade ago. There is apparently nothing that can go against Obama that does not warrant an argument on this basis.

It's juvenile behavior plain and simple. Remember when you were a kid and your grandfather used to tell you how it was done in his day? Remember how you rolled your eyes and thought to yourself how out of touch he was with the times? That's what posting a thread of this nature feels like. Knee-jerk adolescent responses based on how it used to be. This is why most at the Forums think this subforum is the loony-bin.

Thanks you thraashman for the response. For my purposes, I'm going to consider it genuine. Thanks also to everyone that took the post seriously and added their thoughts and commentary. To all that must defend Obama in Pavlovian knee-jerk responses, to those that started the deflection bandwagon and those that jumped on it with glee, I can't even muster enough emotion to feel sorry for you. Carrying around hatred for as long a period of time as you have is unhealthy. I wish you good luck as the rest of your days unfold - but I've got to say, my sincerity level is pretty low. There are a lot of bitter old men in the making here.
 
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boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
126
No. But I do not believe that Bush lied about Iraq either. I believe that both Bush and Obama conduct their foreign policy according to their heartfelt convictions about what is necessary and what is best for the world and the country, although they may not agree on what weight to give each.
I'll add to that. They also base those decisions on the information available at the time. Information gleaned by human beings. Gleaned by people who are flawed as are all of us. People who do the best they can with the information they have. There is precious little in this life that is a certainty.

The progressive left has wound up an argument, honed over time based on perceived lies by a previous administration. The Booosh administration. The arguments they have used over the years for the "illegal" war (that wasn't, but they don't want to face reality on that) frequently coincide with the actions taken by the administration of their hero, Barack Obama. He is a Democrat, he is our first black President, he is the Hope and Change President that has the power to lower sea levels. That his actions often mirror the actions of Bush is to be ignored. It's different when he does it. It's good and it's wondrous.

The faults of Bush whether real or imagined are what makes them rise from their beds in the morning. It's the spring in their step, the milk on their cornflakes. It has muddled their brains to the point that their thought processes are so convoluted that they can no longer comprehend the dire straits our country is in right now. It's better to blame it on the predecessors of Obama than to hold Obama accountable two and a half years into his rein. He'll never be held accountable because golly, he's doing the best that he can. That's good enough for "their" candidate.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I'll add to that. They also base those decisions on the information available at the time. Information gleaned by human beings. Gleaned by people who are flawed as are all of us. People who do the best they can with the information they have. There is precious little in this life that is a certainty.

The progressive left has wound up an argument, honed over time based on perceived lies by a previous administration. The Booosh administration. The arguments they have used over the years for the "illegal" war (that wasn't, but they don't want to face reality on that) frequently coincide with the actions taken by the administration of their hero, Barack Obama. He is a Democrat, he is our first black President, he is the Hope and Change President that has the power to lower sea levels. That his actions often mirror the actions of Bush is to be ignored. It's different when he does it. It's good and it's wondrous.

The faults of Bush whether real or imagined are what makes them rise from their beds in the morning. It's the spring in their step, the milk on their cornflakes. It has muddled their brains to the point that their thought processes are so convoluted that they can no longer comprehend the dire straits our country is in right now. It's better to blame it on the predecessors of Obama than to hold Obama accountable two and a half years into his rein. He'll never be held accountable because golly, he's doing the best that he can. That's good enough for "their" candidate.

Damned well said, sirrah.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,530
3
0
The big question and the one I want answered is will congress start impeachment proceedings for the traitor in chief? Don't tiptoe patriot republicans, get rid of this president.
Bush hasn't been President for over 3 years.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
7,164
0
0
You have to understand that Bush 'wasn't lying', making it clear he had decided on war to his staff, and then their deciding how to argue for his war, "for bureaucratic reasons, we settled on one issue – weapons of mass destruction – because it was the one reason everyone could agree on," to quote his Pentagon war champion Paul Wolfowitz. Once that decision was made, the effort was to find any evidence that helped the argument and dismiss any that did not.

That's how we had the baseless quotes from administration officials, "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat"; how we had the Vice President going to the CIA to pressure analysts who were not saying what the administratin wanted, repeatedly, how we had the administration putting the lie in the State of the Union we had strong evidence Iraq was actively trying to buy nukes when we did not, for which they later had to apologize after an actual patriot told the truth, for which they attacked his wife, exposing a CIA undercover operative and ended her career in the CIA, which they lied about to cover up and were had Cheney's chief of staff convicted, and sentence commuted by Bush; how we had the administration claiming aluminum tubes in Iraq could only be used for nuclear weapons, ignoring their own experts they were for artillery which also later was confirmed, how the administration chose to mislead the world and even its own Secretary of State to use him for spreading the message, that they had evidence they did not for WMD, hiding that it was almost entirely based on the lies of one man, who they had never met or talked to or knew the identity of, using the information he had supplied German intelligence because he knew it would help him get asylum he wanted when only one in 25 Iraqis trying for asylum in German were getting it, a source German intelligence had told the US was not reliable.

When the administration continued to claim they'd found 'mobile weapons laboratories' months after our own forces reported they were, after the invasion and inspection, nothing of the sort, he'll have to explain why that wasn't lying; presumably, the President (a couple days later) and Vice President (4 months later) didn't get the memo that Curveball had made the story up.

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=1836723

But Bush did make this somber speech when he apologized to the nation and the world for his errors on WMD claims to justify the war.

http://www.jokeroo.com/videos/yt/g5dp-bush-jokes-about-wmds-at-white-house-dinner.html

You have to understand to werepossum that's not lying, because they didn't have proof beyond a reasonable doubt Saddam *didn't* have WMD, as they lied.

I don't disagree with what you say here, but the point bears making that Bush himself did not necessarily lie. The Book Fiasco by Thomas Ricks lays out what happened with pretty solid sourcing. The intelligence community collected information about WMD's in Iraq, but because we had no boots on the ground in country, our intelligence consisted entirely of statements by Iraqi expats with suspect motives. The intelligence analysts on the ground had strong suspicions about the credibility of those statements. But the administration wanted justification for a war, so its intelligence liasons essentially told the intelligence brass to supply them with one. Hence, as the intelligence information moved upstairs, each iteration of it was further and further denuded of the analysts' suspicions about the credibility of the information, to the point where the top level report provided to the administration (and by the administration to Congress) essentially presented the information uncritically, as fact.

While the administration sent a clear message to the intelligence community that it wanted justification for war, it is unclear and unknown the extent to which Bush himself was privy to the credibility problems with the sources. He may well have been intentionally insulated from it. Clearly the administration was guilty of dishonesty, but the individual knowledge of Bush is unclear. Bush was never really the President anyway. He was a stooge for others. I think most people understand that by now if they didn't then.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
I know this has little chance of breaching your protective cloud of idiocy, but Saddam actually killed quite a lot of people with weapons of mass destruction, and in fact we found most of the WMD we KNEW he had. The WMDs we THOUGHT he had manufactured almost certainly didn't exist, but most of the world believed they did exist at the time. How someone can believe that Bush had the power to make France and Germany say that Saddam had WMDs when they were violently opposed to our going back in can only be explained by Bush Derangement Syndrome. I won't even attempt to enumerate the several reasons Bush gave for reopening hostilities with Iraq since I well understand that the progressive mind can hold only one thought at a time.
Forget the whole debate about the veracity of WMD claims for a second though. I've never understood why anyone ever was supposed to give a crap about some tinpot dictator having "weapons of mass destruction" in the first place. (I love how it's bandied about as if that term has some special meaning that's supposed to invoke fear and trembling.) Moreover, why is that a good reason to go to war half way 'round the globe? It has always baffled me.

Guess what: [Insert random shithole country that represents no material threat to the USA] has weapons somewhere that violate a UN resolution. Boo.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,466
6,103
126
werepossum: If you take that tact, you have an obligation to show why Libya and not the many other nations in exactly the same condition.

M: If you give 5 dollars to charity, are you guilty because you didn't give 10? What two nations are in the same condition?

w: Some sort of proof that the tens if not hundreds of thousands killed by Saddam were in fact only human-appearing aardvarks would be useful too, just to keep alive the myth that any decision taken by your cartoon character automatically brings forth choruses of angels whilst any decision taken by the opposing cartoon character is automatically the work of the Devil himself (i.e. Dick Cheney and Halliburton.) Might be time to play the race card again too.

M: You are spouting a script to yourself. None of that means a thing to me. Qaddafi has been prevented from a wholesale slaughter of his people as he promised he would. I don't care about anything else. If you try to do what is right in life, somebody will hate you. Who gives a fuck. Virtue is it's own reward. I knew what the Serbs would do and I would have bombed them into extinction. This time it's being done.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Republicans found another war they don't like. Bill Clinton saving thousands in Bosnia was another war they were against. The CIA and others knew of the ethnic cleansing going on in the region and George H.W. Bush did nothing.
We've seen this before, righties are all in favor of invading countries that did nothing to us, and when there is real threat to innocent lives they're not interested because the glory may go to a Democrat.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
I don't disagree with what you say here, but the point bears making that Bush himself did not necessarily lie. The Book Fiasco by Thomas Ricks lays out what happened with pretty solid sourcing. The intelligence community collected information about WMD's in Iraq, but because we had no boots on the ground in country, our intelligence consisted entirely of statements by Iraqi expats with suspect motives. The intelligence analysts on the ground had strong suspicions about the credibility of those statements. But the administration wanted justification for a war, so its intelligence liasons essentially told the intelligence brass to supply them with one. Hence, as the intelligence information moved upstairs, each iteration of it was further and further denuded of the analysts' suspicions about the credibility of the information, to the point where the top level report provided to the administration (and by the administration to Congress) essentially presented the information uncritically, as fact.

While the administration sent a clear message to the intelligence community that it wanted justification for war, it is unclear and unknown the extent to which Bush himself was privy to the credibility problems with the sources. He may well have been intentionally insulated from it. Clearly the administration was guilty of dishonesty, but the individual knowledge of Bush is unclear. Bush was never really the President anyway. He was a stooge for others. I think most people understand that by now if they didn't then.

I think I laid it out pretty carefully, and I did not include any suggestion of a quote from George Bush saying "I order you to lie that Saddam has WMD."

I think we are right to hold Bush responsible for the actions of his administration he permitted.

Allowing him to not be responsible for his administration is like letting a drunk driver say, "I didn't commit a crime when I killed that family, I was unconscious".

Ultimately it was his choice who to appoint, who to let do what - but not I don't lay it all at his feet by any means. But a lot belongs there for him to back that team.

He decided he wanted war. He wasn't honest about his commitment to war, and he wasn't honest about his reasons for war. When an ad agency working for a cigarette company puts the ad out that seduces people to smoke, and leaves out (if allowed) the harmful effects, they aren't 'telling the truth', even if they aren't 'lying'. He appointed almost exactly the same people to power, who had shortly before the election signed a letter to Clinton encouraging him to go to war with Saddam.

I agree with your boundaries on the 'Bush lied' issue, and I think I included them in my post, but it's also not right to go too far in protecting him.

Another item, you say 'we didn't have boots on the ground' as if the administration was making a good faith effort to get the truth, it was an honest limitation.

There are many reasons why that's wrong, but let's take one - we had international inspectors ON THE GROUND, under Hans Blix, who were making good progress on a credible investigation on the issue, who appeared increasingly likely to - and would have - reported there were no WMD, and the administration's response wasn't to welcome the truth with a sigh of relief for peace, it was to view the team as a threat to its war agenda, IIRC to accelerate the war schedule to prevent them from finishing and start the war before the team killed its selected justification for war - and not only that, it launched an attack operation to discredit Hans Blix.

Now that's a far cry from the 'innocent mistake' tone of your version.

You mention 'Iraqi experts'; technically there were multiple people, but you leave out a couple things, one that the best experts we had said there were NOT WMD, like Saddam's son-in-law *who had been in charge of the program* and defected and told us that, and nearly tne entire case for WMD was Curveball, who I said was:
"one man, who they had never met or talked to or knew the identity of, using the information he had supplied German intelligence because he knew it would help him get asylum he wanted when only one in 25 Iraqis trying for asylum in German were getting it, a source German intelligence had told the US was not reliable."

THAT'S the man Colin Powell described as 'not allegations, but facts from solid intelligence'.

I agree with you and will put it more strongly, that Bush likely was 'institutionally insulated' from the dishonest campaign - but the thing you left out there was how much that was Bush's choice. If you have a Reagan say he wants the Contras supported, and his Vice President former head of the CIA says he'll get it done, then the fact Reagan is 'institutionally insulated' doesn't absolve him of guilt for the law-breaking he ordered, just because it was indirect.

What I'm doing it describing the wrongs that were done in contrast to the right-wing 'it was an honest mistake' myth - a correction you largely agree with - including the nuances between 'Bush knew there were no WMD and knowingly lied', which I don't think the evidence supports, and the fact of the lies that did happen.

I think my post accounted for the point you were making. It sounds like you were concerned about the excessive claim against Bush that I did not make.

But I also think you were understating the wrong in areas, while we mostly agree.

For what it's worth, I've defended Bush more than most on the left on the larger issue that the left did not have a good plan for Saddam on their own. That there was a case to be made for wanting to act against Saddam - while criticizing Republicans for everything from a terribly corrupt and incompetent management of the war, to the lies pushing it, to their earlier backing of Saddam. Democrats were vulnerable to legitimate criticism for the potential decades coming of Saddam family dictatorship.
 

Generator

Senior member
Mar 4, 2005
793
0
0
Its been 60 days, time to cease all involvement in this, well...whatever it was suppose to be. Lets not forget that thousands were saved and that they did hold a rally to say THANK YOU.

But this is the United States and I'm sure congress will find a way to keep Obama happy.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
84,166
48,262
136
I don't disagree with what you say here, but the point bears making that Bush himself did not necessarily lie. The Book Fiasco by Thomas Ricks lays out what happened with pretty solid sourcing. The intelligence community collected information about WMD's in Iraq, but because we had no boots on the ground in country, our intelligence consisted entirely of statements by Iraqi expats with suspect motives. The intelligence analysts on the ground had strong suspicions about the credibility of those statements. But the administration wanted justification for a war, so its intelligence liasons essentially told the intelligence brass to supply them with one. Hence, as the intelligence information moved upstairs, each iteration of it was further and further denuded of the analysts' suspicions about the credibility of the information, to the point where the top level report provided to the administration (and by the administration to Congress) essentially presented the information uncritically, as fact.

While the administration sent a clear message to the intelligence community that it wanted justification for war, it is unclear and unknown the extent to which Bush himself was privy to the credibility problems with the sources. He may well have been intentionally insulated from it. Clearly the administration was guilty of dishonesty, but the individual knowledge of Bush is unclear. Bush was never really the President anyway. He was a stooge for others. I think most people understand that by now if they didn't then.

There is a lot of misinformation about how the intelligence work for Iraq's WMDs was put together. About a month ago I actually met the guy who led the creation of the Iraq WMD NIE. He said, and I believe him, that there was no pressure whatsoever to manufacture a consensus. The intel community genuinely believed Saddam had WMD's. When you think about it, we knew with 100% certainty that he had them in the past, and his behavior was that of someone trying to hide something.

As for Bush and WMD intel though, this second point is far more important. The Bush administration didn't particularly care what the intelligence community had to say about Iraq, they didn't really trust the CIA. In fact, the infamous Iraq NIE wasn't even requested by the Bush administration, it was requested by the Senate. Ie: Bush had decided on his Iraq policy without even asking the intelligence community what it thought. Why politicize something when you don't care what the people are going to say to begin with? Instead he had already created the Office of Special plans to bypass the intel community, they gave him the answers he wanted.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Typical Craig response when put to the test and unable to exit gracefully.

Careful, if you criticize him he'll whine and threaten to put you on ignore. ;)


The problem was that he pulled this stunt before and

HE LIED

He said he was putting me on ignore.
A few days later, he went and directly quoted me.

So apparently he is incapable of figuring out how to use the ignore feature, so bluffs
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Obama may be able to wiggle out of this one by claiming that it is NATO and not the US that is doing combat strikes.

It is interesting in that what was intended to enforce a no fly zone (as we did in Iraq after GW-I) has become aerial attacks against the Libyan government and no participation by the Arab league that pushed the issue in the beginning.

Using Apaches to attack government buildings; missile launches against civilian compounds is not enforcing a no-fly zone. It is a weak attempt to run a war on political correctness without putting boots on the ground for a side.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
The problem was that he pulled this stunt before and

COMMON COURTESY LIED

He said he was putting me on ignore.
A few days later, he went and directly quoted me.

So apparently he is incapable of figuring out how to use the ignore feature, so bluffs

Wrong as usual (and partially fixed).

You are the one who needs to learn how the ignore feature works, and stop lying.

For a long time - including when I had said that - I used a 'virtual ignore' meaning I would generally skip the posts of the person in question. As I said repeatedly, sometimes I'd skim posts and see a post before who posted it; and that this ignore was at my discretion, if I wanted to give them 'another chance' after a period I would.

Later, when I found the actual 'ignore list', that was pretty useful.

What you obviously don't understand is, *moderators can't be added to it*, something I learned when I tried.

Also, when I'm not logged in, reading posts, it doesn't use the ignore list, showing all posts.

So, your posts are going to show up regardless - and I can ignore them, which I have had the pleasure of doing for quite a while. If I choose not to at some point - my choice.

So, your obnoxious comment is the actual lie. You are misrepresenting what I said - once again.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,462
7,518
136
So true, we should never save thousands and thousands of lives just because we can, especially if the folk are Muslim, right? There are pills you can take to sleep at night, and cowardliness equates to being emotionally dead. We'll be just fine.

Republicans start their wars and you start yours. Afgans and Iraqis are Muslim, but you didn't care then. Lives do not matter to you, only the R or the D behind the commander's name. Then you allude to being worthy of the grey matter you occupy.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
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Republicans start their wars and you start yours. Afgans and Iraqis are Muslim, but you didn't care then. Lives do not matter to you, only the R or the D behind the commander's name. Then you allude to being worthy of the grey matter you occupy.

And you fail to understand the difference between starting a war for, say, expansion of power, and using force to protect civilians from slaughter.

I've commented before on the fact that there were humanitarian aspects to the Iraq war, not that the 'R's' worried much about them previously.
 
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nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,816
83
91
if Republicans are on the correct side of an issue, does it really matter what their motivations are or how they'd vote if Obama was all-white instead of half-white?
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,643
2,037
126
Wrong as usual (and partially fixed).

You are the one who needs to learn how the ignore feature works, and stop lying.

For a long time - including when I had said that - I used a 'virtual ignore' meaning I would generally skip the posts of the person in question. As I said repeatedly, sometimes I'd skim posts and see a post before who posted it; and that this ignore was at my discretion, if I wanted to give them 'another chance' after a period I would.

Later, when I found the actual 'ignore list', that was pretty useful.

What you obviously don't understand is, *moderators can't be added to it*, something I learned when I tried.

Also, when I'm not logged in, reading posts, it doesn't use the ignore list, showing all posts.

So, your posts are going to show up regardless - and I can ignore them, which I have had the pleasure of doing for quite a while. If I choose not to at some point - my choice.

So, your obnoxious comment is the actual lie. You are misrepresenting what I said - once again.

So let me get this straight.

You said you were going to ignore him and didn't, the technology used is irrelevant. Only in Craigs world does "ignore" mean "ignore sometimes only when I feel like it"
 

Corn

Diamond Member
Nov 12, 1999
6,389
29
91
So let me get this straight.

You said you were going to ignore him and didn't, the technology used is irrelevant. Only in Craigs world does "ignore" mean "ignore sometimes only when I feel like it"

LOL