biofuels might not be all they're cracked up to be

[ElFenix]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/01/30/business/biofuel.php


flying into KLIA from the south, you see miles and miles of what looks like jungle. the lower you get, though, you'll start to see something you'd never see in the jungle. each and every tree is in a perfect row with all the others. it's miles and miles of plantations. all palm plantations.


and those fires from indonesia are a bitch. last time i flew into singapore it was smoky all the way in. the rest of asia is starting to get pissed off about it.

 

[Feldenak]

Sorry, but I just have to :laugh:

 

[waggy]

OH Snap!

 

[mercanucaribe]

Didn't I fvcking say, 2 years ago, that biofuel is not worth the destruction of nature, use of soil nutrients, and fossil fuels used in the process??

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Filed under N for No Sh*t.

- M4H

 

[leftyman]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
Didn't I fvcking say, 2 years ago, that biofuel is not worth the destruction of nature, use of soil nutrients, and fossil fuels used in the process??

yes, I remember.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Feldenak
Sorry, but I just have to :laugh:

Why? 😕 Setbacks in the move to sustainable energy are bad for everyone, not just hippy environmentalists.

I don't think this is that big a deal though - algae is where it's at. Algae oil can be produced in far higher quantities per acre than palm oil.

 

[leftyman]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Feldenak
Sorry, but I just have to :laugh:

Why? 😕 Setbacks in the move to sustainable energy are bad for everyone, not just hippy environmentalists.

I don't think this is that big a deal though - algae is where it's at. Algae oil can be produced in far higher quantities per acre than palm oil.

especially with all the fertilizer run off into the oceans :thumbsup:

 

[mugs]

In Europe it is mostly local rapeseed and sunflower oil, used to make diesel fuel.

Bad typo :Q

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Feldenak
Sorry, but I just have to :laugh:

Why? 😕 Setbacks in the move to sustainable energy are bad for everyone, not just hippy environmentalists.

I don't think this is that big a deal though - algae is where it's at. Algae oil can be produced in far higher quantities per acre than palm oil.

Why am I laughing? Because something like this should have been obvious.

 

[NuroMancer]

When you look at all the input costs of createing bio fuels, the energy saved < the energy needed to create the bio fuel.

 

[djheater]

Originally posted by: mugs

In Europe it is mostly local rapeseed and sunflower oil, used to make diesel fuel.

Bad typo :Q

No. it's not.

Rapeseed is what's used to make Canola oil, but the don't call it Rape oil for obvious reasons.

googlepedia

 

[MercenaryForHire]

E:F;B

- M4H

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Feldenak
Sorry, but I just have to :laugh:

Why? 😕 Setbacks in the move to sustainable energy are bad for everyone, not just hippy environmentalists.

I don't think this is that big a deal though - algae is where it's at. Algae oil can be produced in far higher quantities per acre than palm oil.

Why am I laughing? Because something like this should have been obvious.

To whom? The Europeans who want the oil or the Indonesians who produce it? The Europeans apparently didn't know the Indonesians would drain and burn their swampland to make more farmland, and the Indonesians apparently cared mroe about the money than the environmental impact.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: djheater

Originally posted by: mugs

In Europe it is mostly local rapeseed and sunflower oil, used to make diesel fuel.

Bad typo :Q

No. it's not.

Rapeseed is what's used to make Canola oil, but the don't call it Rape oil for obvious reasons.

googlepedia

My bad... I thought they meant grapeseed oil. 🙂

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Feldenak

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Feldenak
Sorry, but I just have to :laugh:

Why? 😕 Setbacks in the move to sustainable energy are bad for everyone, not just hippy environmentalists.

I don't think this is that big a deal though - algae is where it's at. Algae oil can be produced in far higher quantities per acre than palm oil.

Why am I laughing? Because something like this should have been obvious.

To whom? The Europeans who want the oil or the Indonesians who produce it? The Europeans apparently didn't know the Indonesians would drain and burn their swampland to make more farmland, and the Indonesians apparently cared mroe about the money than the environmental impact.

That's like saying you didn't realize that Africans would kill each other over diamonds.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: NuroMancer
When you look at all the input costs of createing bio fuels, the energy saved < the energy needed to create the bio fuel.

This is not always true. If it was true, how did Brazil eliminate their dependence on foreign oil? They started producing ethanol from sugarcane. If it required more energy to produce than you got out of it, they would have increased their dependence on foreign oil.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Feldenak

That's like saying you didn't realize that Africans would kill each other over diamonds.

Errrr... ok. According to the article they didn't find out it was happening until last year, and since then they've ended the subsidies. The use of fertilizer was a foreseeable consequence of demand for palm oil, but the draining of swamps and burning of rain forests was not. Do you think that before they implemented the subsidies they went to every country that produces palm oil and analyzed the available land to determine how much of it was suitable to produce palm oil?

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: NuroMancer
When you look at all the input costs of createing bio fuels, the energy saved < the energy needed to create the bio fuel.

This is not always true. If it was true, how did Brazil eliminate their dependence on foreign oil? They started producing ethanol from sugarcane. If it required more energy to produce than you got out of it, they would have increased their dependence on foreign oil.

It's not always true, but no matter what you are using huge amounts of land. Sugar cane may be more efficient than corn too... think of how little energy is contained in the kernels on the ears of corn growing on a corn plant.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Feldenak

That's like saying you didn't realize that Africans would kill each other over diamonds.

Errrr... ok. According to the article they didn't find out it was happening until last year, and since then they've ended the subsidies. The use of fertilizer was a foreseeable consequence of demand for palm oil, but the draining of swamps and burning of rain forests was not. Do you think that before they implemented the subsidies they went to every country that produces palm oil and analyzed the available land to determine how much of it was suitable to produce palm oil?

Politicians seem to believe that land will just materialize, or you can use existing farmland without reducing food crop yields... They are apparently very bad at basic math.

 

[chambersc]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
Didn't I fvcking say, 2 years ago, that biofuel is not worth the destruction of nature, use of soil nutrients, and fossil fuels used in the process??

Yeah, the short sighted ineptitude of radicals is ASTOUNDING!

 

[j00fek]

classic story

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: Feldenak

That's like saying you didn't realize that Africans would kill each other over diamonds.

Errrr... ok. According to the article they didn't find out it was happening until last year, and since then they've ended the subsidies. The use of fertilizer was a foreseeable consequence of demand for palm oil, but the draining of swamps and burning of rain forests was not. Do you think that before they implemented the subsidies they went to every country that produces palm oil and analyzed the available land to determine how much of it was suitable to produce palm oil?

Politicians seem to believe that land will just materialize, or you can use existing farmland without reducing food crop yields... They are apparently very bad at basic math.

politicians are usually lawyers, people who ran away from math in school. like my boss, who had no idea that $900 would not be anywhere near the proper amount of interest on a $29,100 mortgage at 6.25% over a decade or more. and then he tried to tell me it wasn't compounded. 'no, it's just an amortization problem.'

additionally, politicians seem to put very little thought into what will actually happen in the real world due to the policies they espouse. they see the benefits that will lead to utopia and are blinded by them.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe
It's not always true, but no matter what you are using huge amounts of land. Sugar cane may be more efficient than corn too... think of how little energy is contained in the kernels on the ears of corn growing on a corn plant.

Sugar cane is far better than corn. I believe corn does require more energy input than it produces, and I'd encourage people to spread the word about that. The only reason we use corn is because we have millions of acres of it in the midwest, and the government wants to keep those farmers happy.

Land definitely is necessary to grow biofuels. Much less land for algae though - I believe it can produce up to 30 times more oil per acre than the next best alternative (palm oil). And you can grow it in tanks on land that is otherwise useless (i.e. deserts).

Originally posted by: mercanucaribe

Politicians seem to believe that land will just materialize, or you can use existing farmland without reducing food crop yields... They are apparently very bad at basic math.

Many areas of the world have enough available farmland to produce far more food than is necessary to feed the people. Like, for instance, the United States.


Everyone bitches about high gas prices any time there's a 30 cent increase in price, but then you all laugh at the people who are trying to come up with a solution to the problem. Fossil fuels are finite. There will come a time when it is no longer viable to continue pumping oil out of the ground. We have a big ball of energy in the sky, and it would be prudent to start moving toward getting more of our energy from it - whether it be from the wind, the tides, hydroelectric dams, geothermal energy, biofuels, or whatever.