Biden: The US didnt come to Afghanistan to nation build -> Why NOT?!?!

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
29,391
2,736
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(Heard him say this on news radio while in the car)

We're there for 20yrs.
Why didnt we nation build?!

Did we learn nothing from 'Charlie Wilson's War' in the 1980s?
US help drive the Soviets from Afghanistan thank's to Congressman Charlie Wilson with 1/2 $Billion$ aid from US.
but afterwards, when Charlie asks for a measly $1M to build schools in the aftermath, the US turned its back on Afghanistan.
The result was 9/11 around 15 years . :(

We nation build in Japan and Germany after WW2.
Why didnt we do it in Afghanistan, especially when we had a true coalition of other nations (unlike Iraq War 2) to help us?
 
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Stokely

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,215
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Are you somehow under the impression that we *didn't* try to nation build?

IMO you can't rebuild something when they fundamentally oppose you being there, and strong religious feelings rule the day (something that wasn't present in Germany or Japan)?


In short, what could we have done differently to "nation build" than what was done? I think it was a complete non-starter. Same as Iraq.

I'll admit to being no expert on Afghanistan, but it seems to me that no amount of money is going to turn those countries into some "favorable" compatible-to-the-US country.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,750
2,524
126
Afghanistan has a well deserved reputation, going back to the 1800s, of the country empires go to to die. Just ask the Brits and Soviets. In fact, we did go there to nation build initially. Our goals were to wipe out the Taliban (or at least destroy their ability and desire to support international terrorism0 then rebuild the country into something that could fit into international society. After a good start GWB got distracted by his desire to conquer Saddam in Iraq. At a critical time the war in Afghanistan and rebuilding efforts were put on the back burner, essentially dooming them to failure.

Anyone who thinks Japan pre and during WWII didn't have strong religious and society wide opposition to US invading and conquering them is delusional. That country is a poster child for a successful rebuilding of a hostile country.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,205
10,865
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Are you somehow under the impression that we *didn't* try to nation build?

IMO you can't rebuild something when they fundamentally oppose you being there, and strong religious feelings rule the day (something that wasn't present in Germany or Japan)?


In short, what could we have done differently to "nation build" than what was done? I think it was a complete non-starter. Same as Iraq.

I'll admit to being no expert on Afghanistan, but it seems to me that no amount of money is going to turn those countries into some "favorable" compatible-to-the-US country.
I guess we should have just turned the place to glass and start over right? Nothing else would work.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,527
15,406
136
We can’t even build our own nation, how exactly would we do it overseas?

Hell! Getting congress to support rebuilding our failing infrastructure is a no go, how exactly would you propose getting congress to pay millions/billions of dollars to a nation that doesn’t even pay taxes to us.

You think the calls of socialism from the right is bad now, just wait until actual socialism is used to rebuild Afghanistan.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
27,577
26,670
136
(Heard him say this on news radio while in the car)

We're there for 20yrs.
Why didnt we nation build?!

Did we learn nothing from 'Charlie Wilson's War' in the 1980s?
US help drive the Soviets from Afghanistan thank's to Congressman Charlie Wilson with 1/2 $Billion$ aid from US.
but afterwards, when Charlie asks for a measly $1M to build schools in the aftermath, the US turned its back on Afghanistan.
The result was 9/11 around 15 years . :(

We nation build in Japan and Germany after WW2.
Why didnt we do it in Afghanistan, especially when we had a true coalition of other nations (unlike Iraq War 2) to help us?
Sir this is an Arby’s .
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,261
5,709
146
(Heard him say this on news radio while in the car)

We're there for 20yrs.
Why didnt we nation build?!

Did we learn nothing from 'Charlie Wilson's War' in the 1980s?
US help drive the Soviets from Afghanistan thank's to Congressman Charlie Wilson with 1/2 $Billion$ aid from US.
but afterwards, when Charlie asks for a measly $1M to build schools in the aftermath, the US turned its back on Afghanistan.
The result was 9/11 around 15 years . :(

We nation build in Japan and Germany after WW2.
Why didnt we do it in Afghanistan, especially when we had a true coalition of other nations (unlike Iraq War 2) to help us?

Apparently not because we walked into Afghanistan like we were the Soviet Union, with similarly disastrous results.

We "nation build" Germany and Japan because we were immediately in the Cold War.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Anyone who thinks Japan pre and during WWII didn't have strong religious and society wide opposition to US invading and conquering them is delusional. That country is a poster child for a successful rebuilding of a hostile country.

The circumstances with Japan were unique to that situation though. Emperor Hirohito was potentially on the hot seat for war crimes. Churchill wanted him put on trial. So MacArthur used that as a bargaining chip to convince Hirohito to support the US occupation. That, and enshrining him as Emperor for life in their new Constitution. Since Hirohito was considered as akin to a demigod by the Japanese, when he went on the radio to tell the Japanese people to support the US occupation, it carried considerable weight.

If we had someone with equivalent influence supporting us in Afghanistan, it might have worked out better.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,678
40,015
136
The circumstances with Japan were unique to that situation though. Emperor Hirohito was potentially on the hot seat for war crimes. Churchill wanted him put on trial. So MacArthur used that as a bargaining chip to convince Hirohito to support the US occupation. That, and enshrining him as Emperor for life in their new Constitution. Since Hirohito was considered as akin to a demigod by the Japanese, when he went on the radio to tell the Japanese people to support the US occupation, it carried considerable weight.

Very much this. Had we put Hirohito on trial and let him dangle like some others, that would have been the begining of a bloody occupation with no real end in sight. Not really a MacArthur fan, but he definitely made the right call there.


If we had someone with equivalent influence supporting us in Afghanistan, it might have worked out better.

Agreed. Ahmad Masood could have been the guy, but then the Taliban thought so too unfortunately. IMO we should have hit the road after Obama and his team made OBL fishfood.
 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,138
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Afghanistan has a well deserved reputation, going back to the 1800s, of the country empires go to to die. Just ask the Brits and Soviets. In fact, we did go there to nation build initially. Our goals were to wipe out the Taliban (or at least destroy their ability and desire to support international terrorism0 then rebuild the country into something that could fit into international society. After a good start GWB got distracted by his desire to conquer Saddam in Iraq. At a critical time the war in Afghanistan and rebuilding efforts were put on the back burner, essentially dooming them to failure.

Anyone who thinks Japan pre and during WWII didn't have strong religious and society wide opposition to US invading and conquering them is delusional. That country is a poster child for a successful rebuilding of a hostile country.

-Germany and Japan were both heavily industrialized and were already well into the age of nations where their societies had a cultural knowledge of shared purpose. Both counties had, even after a war, a doctrinal stability to fall back on.

Afghanistan is the blank space created by the area the countries around it don't want. There is no foundation off of which to build or rebuild a (modern, democratic) society. I am not saying there aren't people in Afghanistan that don't want that, there just aren't enough with the kind of deep knowledge required to assemble and launch the finished product in one go after 20 years.
 

sportage

Lifer
Feb 1, 2008
11,492
3,161
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I truly feared that a president Biden would be a warmonger, a war hawk as so many past US presidents have been. Bush certainly was, and Obama was drawn into that bottomless pit as well, but Joe Biden just said NO, just like Nancy Reagan. I believe Biden's stance on Afghanistan and on war in general will come back to reward Joe Biden when he runs again in 2024. As time goes on it becomes apparent that experience within a president is a good thing, not a bad thing as most republicans have believed. Joe is navigating this vessel like a true captain with wisdom and sound judgment. America is not going to hit an iceberg as long as Joe Biden is in charge.
 

pauldun170

Diamond Member
Sep 26, 2011
9,141
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Summary - White people from Europe and North America dictating how a nation in another continent should be structured, what cultural norms it should adopt and who trading partners will be is not "Nation Building".
There is another word for that.

Confusion over aspects of the Marshal plan and ignoring the historical context of when it was implemented with more recent military adventures is common, but ye shall not get a free pass.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,581
50,768
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The circumstances with Japan were unique to that situation though. Emperor Hirohito was potentially on the hot seat for war crimes. Churchill wanted him put on trial. So MacArthur used that as a bargaining chip to convince Hirohito to support the US occupation. That, and enshrining him as Emperor for life in their new Constitution. Since Hirohito was considered as akin to a demigod by the Japanese, when he went on the radio to tell the Japanese people to support the US occupation, it carried considerable weight.

If we had someone with equivalent influence supporting us in Afghanistan, it might have worked out better.
Yes, I strongly agree. Also, at least in the case of Germany we killed/wounded/captured a large percentage of their fighting age men. There was a reason they were conscripting boys and old men at the end of the war, they were literally running out of people to fight with. Hard to really carry on a struggle in circumstances like that.