Biblical literalist defends creationism, new earth, and other "science" theories

[Anarchist420]

I dont think that the earth is only 6million years old nor do i believe that jesus was divine (i am not sure if he even existed historically), but i do believe in double predestination, that a higher power created everything, that a higher power created a neanderthal eve, and that those with mtDNA haplogroup UK, A, or D are matrilineally descended from neanderthal eve and that they are the master race.

 

[zinfamous]

I think you're missing the point. Beliefs are beliefs and I have no problem with what Ken Ham thinks about genesis or anything else (although I disagree). But that also doesn't entitle you to create a new version of "science" that suits your fancy and picks and chooses parts of the scientitic method and discards others for convenience, and then gets used as a weapon to attack others.

yeah Ken Ham can believe what he wants, but the real problem is how he, and people like Retro here, conflate belief with science, and their assertion that the two systems are interchangeable.

They are not.

They further confuse the gullible by making these highly-erred comparisons a topic of discussion, the simple act of which lends a false credence to the notion that such discussions are valid.

They are not.

 

[networkman]

And I'm fine with that too. But you're saying that based upon your faith and not going around creating a new pseudo "science" that retrofits biblical words into observed reality. I would likewise object just as strongly if a "scientist" said they could prove God didn't exist.

What "observed reality" are your referring to? Perhaps you mean the "billions" of years which no one has seen or measured? (I'm sure we'll get to the folly of "carbon-dating" at some point.) Or the light-years between stars that *must* mean the light has been traveling for billions of years? Could not a Creator have simply created these things into existence, including the light perceived as already being in transit? Certainly could have.

Make no mistake, I do not disagree with the concept of a light-year or the laws governing mathematics - indeed mathematics as been called a language, and a beautiful one at that! It's the application of the knowledge we gain that sometimes takes us down the wrong paths. Even science itself acknowledges that many mistakes are made along the way before something is proven. Science is constantly re-writing itself to improvement.

 

[zinfamous]

There's nothing wrong with the seeking of knowledge as long as we remember who created these things to be found and place glory with the Creator and not in the created.

This idea, exactly, is the death of the human brain. It is the complete end of knowledge.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Interesting to compare this post with this:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Rob
You *can* believe it all you want, but when you lie and fabricate evidence to fit that belief in order to validate it, that's when it becomes dangerous.

Just because I may believe in Thor doesn't give me the leeway to then dig up old war hammers and claim that is physical evidence of Thor's existence.

To believe in creation is one thing, to dress that religious dogma up as "creation science" is a completely different thing.

Ham is a very good lia... I mean, businessman.

I always cringe when idio,,,people don`t post the link to the post....
It is very easy to pick what you want out of a post and mis-represent the post.....

 

[Retro Rob]

Interesting to compare this post with this:

Apples to asteroids.

Calling out a blatant lie isn't the same as calling someone out and ripping them for merely disagreeing with another Christian.

 

[networkman]

This idea, exactly, is the death of the human brain. It is the complete end of knowledge.

I'm sorry you believe that. The esteemed poet and playwright William Shakespeare said [in Hamlet] “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

I believe Mr Shakespeare was right; there are far more things than we can possible imagine or comprehend, which gives rise to our curiosity to know more about the world around us. That I choose to place my faith in a Creator is no slight to the wonder of discovery in our physical world.

 

[zinfamous]

I'm sorry you believe that. The esteemed poet and playwright William Shakespeare said [in Hamlet] “There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

I believe Mr Shakespeare was right; there are far more things than we can possible imagine or comprehend, which gives rise to our curiosity to know more about the world around us. That I choose to place my faith in a Creator is no slight to the wonder of discovery in our physical world.

again, there you are with that "belief" word, confusing it with "knowledge.' The hilarious thing is that you are horribly misusing Shakespeare.

You are saying this: "It's cool to learn things, so long as you stop questioning at point X. I believe point X is the end, therefore there is no reason to seek answers beyond X"

Do you not accept that this is what you said? And do you not accept that your statement runs counter to what Shakespeare is telling you? You see, there are many more things in heaven and earth, than are dreamt of in your philosophy...so you should not stop questioning.

again, the death of the human brain.

 

[Exophase]

I always cringe when idio,,,people don`t post the link to the post....
It is very easy to pick what you want out of a post and mis-represent the post.....

I quoted the entire post. And I guess you're either too stupid or too lazy to use the search feature to find the post, so here you go:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36396791&postcount=4

Personally I think the quote speaks for itself.

Apples to asteroids.

Calling out a blatant lie isn't the same as calling someone out and ripping them for merely disagreeing with another Christian.

Yeah, and I guess the post glenn1 linked doesn't have anything to do with the "creation science" you complained about? It seemed like a pretty big component of Ham's article to me.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yeah, and I guess the post glenn1 linked doesn't have anything to do with the "creation science" you complained about? It seemed like a pretty big component of Ham's article to me.

Fair enough.

No need arguing about it.

 

[MrPickins]

I dont think that the earth is only 6million years old nor do i believe that jesus was divine (i am not sure if he even existed historically), but i do believe in double predestination, that a higher power created everything, that a higher power created a neanderthal eve, and that those with mtDNA haplogroup UK, A, or D are matrilineally descended from neanderthal eve and that they are the master race.

GeoSurface, is that you? :hmm:

 

[Exophase]

Alright, I'll move on to the next one

What "observed reality" are your referring to? Perhaps you mean the "billions" of years which no one has seen or measured? (I'm sure we'll get to the folly of "carbon-dating" at some point.) Or the light-years between stars that *must* mean the light has been traveling for billions of years? Could not a Creator have simply created these things into existence, including the light perceived as already being in transit? Certainly could have.

Make no mistake, I do not disagree with the concept of a light-year or the laws governing mathematics - indeed mathematics as been called a language, and a beautiful one at that! It's the application of the knowledge we gain that sometimes takes us down the wrong paths. Even science itself acknowledges that many mistakes are made along the way before something is proven. Science is constantly re-writing itself to improvement.

First, I'd go not with demonstrating that the earth is billions of years old but merely that it's substantially more than a few thousand years old. For evidence I'd start with what's enumerated here:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation

Why do you find radiometric dating to be folly? It's been observed to incredible accuracy, it fits well defined laws of physics that have yielded a lot of predictive power in experimentation, and it's given results that are both consistent within a group and coherent with other dating methods. As far as science goes it's pretty solid.

Sure, everything could just look old to an arbitrary degree, but that quickly devolves into Last Thursdayism and by all appearances a God that wants to deceive or at least confuse us for some reason. I'd rather not go down a path that renders all empiricism void, especially considering the usefulness it has in direct applications to our lives.

 

[SMOGZINN]

How quickly we went from what sounds like a sound theory:

God's universe is orderly and is maintained; there are laws in place governing everything from the biggest galaxies to the smallest sub-atomic particles and everything in between. He has established these laws and we, through scientific discovery have found a number of them and described them in great detail.

To:

What "observed reality" are your referring to? Perhaps you mean the "billions" of years which no one has seen or measured? (I'm sure we'll get to the folly of "carbon-dating" at some point.) Or the light-years between stars that *must* mean the light has been traveling for billions of years? Could not a Creator have simply created these things into existence, including the light perceived as already being in transit? Certainly could have.

Which is almost exactly the opposite of a 'orderly and is maintained' universe with laws in place governing everything from the biggest galaxies to the smallest sub-atomic particles and everything in between. But instead we have substituted one where the universe is faked and the laws are arbitrary in order to fool us into believing something that is not true.

So it seems that faith does not automatically mean you have to put your brain on a shelf somewhere, as long as no one asks any hard questions.

 

[moonbogg]

What is meant by "free thinking protestant"?

 

[Paratus]

What "observed reality" are your referring to? Perhaps you mean the "billions" of years which no one has seen or measured? (I'm sure we'll get to the folly of "carbon-dating" at some point.) Or the light-years between stars that *must* mean the light has been traveling for billions of years? Could not a Creator have simply created these things into existence, including the light perceived as already being in transit? Certainly could have.

Make no mistake, I do not disagree with the concept of a light-year or the laws governing mathematics - indeed mathematics as been called a language, and a beautiful one at that! It's the application of the knowledge we gain that sometimes takes us down the wrong paths. Even science itself acknowledges that many mistakes are made along the way before something is proven. Science is constantly re-writing itself to improvement.

Seems you think this is a persuasive argument for a "creator". Of course you mean the God of the bible. It's actually quite a poor argument.

Here's the thing, a deity that makes a universe follow natural laws is a deity who is indistinguishable from those laws. With nothing but some hydrogen, natural laws, and time I can explain everything from stars, to life, to a Boeing 737.

Somehow I don't think you are arguing for a God that is nothing more than natural laws. You mean the God of the bible who takes a daily interest in his creations. If that's so, show me some proof of something that isn't now or couldn't be described in the future, by natural laws.

 

[networkman]

How quickly we went from what sounds like a sound theory:

To:

Which is almost exactly the opposite of a 'orderly and is maintained' universe with laws in place governing everything from the biggest galaxies to the smallest sub-atomic particles and everything in between. But instead we have substituted one where the universe is faked and the laws are arbitrary in order to fool us into believing something that is not true.

So it seems that faith does not automatically mean you have to put your brain on a shelf somewhere, as long as no one asks any hard questions.

Not following you here. What exactly is faked? God creates the universe and everything in it, orderly and maintained. Galaxies and stars are light-years apart, light is created in transit such that all of the laws governing the physics and mechanics are adhered to. There's nothing "fake" about it.

As for not asking hard questions, where do I start? Galileo, Copernicus, Francis Bacon, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Isaac Newton, Faraday.. all of these men made huge contributions to science and human knowledge and yet still maintained a Christian faith.

I find your assertions flawed.

 

[Paratus]

Not following you here. What exactly is faked? God creates the universe and everything in it, orderly and maintained. Galaxies and stars are light-years apart, light is created in transit such that all of the laws governing the physics and mechanics are adhered to. There's nothing "fake" about it.

As for not asking hard questions, where do I start? Galileo, Copernicus, Francis Bacon, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Isaac Newton, Faraday.. all of these men made huge contributions to science and human knowledge and yet still maintained a Christian faith.

I find your assertions flawed.

While you weren't responding to me I'll point out again that there is only one description that simply matches real observation. We live in a universe that is ~13.7 billion years old and it started from a singularity called the Big Bang.

Your explanation is one of an infinite number of other explanations that all simplify to Big Bang theory.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Not following you here.

Of course you're not. You're a creationist, and creationists are idiots.

What exactly is faked?

The age of the universe.

God creates the universe and everything in it, orderly and maintained. Galaxies and stars are light-years apart, light is created in transit such that all of the laws governing the physics and mechanics are adhered to. There's nothing "fake" about it.

Why would he make things look billions of years old if they aren't billions of years old? I'm not just talking about light particles appearing in mid-air, either. I'm talking about radio-isotope proportions, the geological column, tree rings, ice cores, lake varves... everything we observe suggests a universe that is billions of years old. EVERYTHING.

How do you know that those things weren't created 5 minutes ago?

The fact is that the universe looks old because it is old, and you and Ken Ham are a couple of morons.

 

[MtnMan]

Not following you here. What exactly is faked? God creates the universe and everything in it, orderly and maintained. Galaxies and stars are light-years apart, light is created in transit such that all of the laws governing the physics and mechanics are adhered to. There's nothing "fake" about it.

As for not asking hard questions, where do I start? Galileo, Copernicus, Francis Bacon, Tycho Brahe, Kepler, Isaac Newton, Faraday.. all of these men made huge contributions to science and human knowledge and yet still maintained a Christian faith.

I find your assertions flawed.

WOW, you make up a whole lot of shit to support a whole lot of made up shit. How the fuck do you function in todays world with such ignorance raging through your cranium?

Or did someone tell you this load of BS, and you are too stupid to see how deep the BS is?

 

[Moonbeam]

Of course you're not. You're a creationist, and creationists are idiots.


The age of the universe.


Why would he make things look billions of years old if they aren't billions of years old? I'm not just talking about light particles appearing in mid-air, either. I'm talking about radio-isotope proportions, the geological column, tree rings, ice cores, lake varves... everything we observe suggests a universe that is billions of years old. EVERYTHING.

How do you know that those things weren't created 5 minutes ago?

The fact is that the universe looks old because it is old, and you and Ken Ham are a couple of morons.

You simply have faith in the inerrancy of logic rather than the Bible, that the universe, looking ancient, can't be 5 minutes old. Such a notion strikes a logical mind as completely absurd so you can't go there. He can't go where you are because his belief is more important to him than your logic. Each of you believes in a different kind of inerrancy. Perhaps if you took LSD, became the disciple of a Brujo, or took a journey to the psychoanalyst's couch your belief in logic would be upended and fly out the window as a result of some newly revealed and perhaps transcendental paradigm. Perhaps some deeply integrated feeling of oneness would change your perception of love. The question that might then arise is how attached you might be to some need for the certainty of logic.

Or perhaps belief in inerrancy of communally derived religious doctrine, whether real or not, confers survival benefits to groups genetically adapted to hold them and you are arguing for the abandonment of what helps humanity survive. Perhaps a balance of folk who have faith in religion and folk who have faith in logic is the right mix for long term cultural success. What do we really know? Perhaps it makes perfect logical sense to be illogical.

 

[ch33zw1z]

While you weren't responding to me I'll point out again that there is only one description that simply matches real observation. We live in a universe that is ~13.7 billion years old and it started from a singularity called the Big Bang.

Your explanation is one of an infinite number of other explanations that all simplify to Big Bang theory.

I submit the big bang was a God fart.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I am god. Please, all bow before me; For I am petty! If you dont kneel and bow before me then I will cast you to a bad bad place for all of time. You must believe everything I tell you or else you will suffer. Ohh yes, I have tons of evidense/proof, look what I wrote here in this page, see, I wrote it down, that means it MUST be true. I AM THE GREAT GILGAMESH! BOW DOWN BEFORE ME AND HEAR MY ROAR!

 

[SMOGZINN]

I am god. Please, all bow before me; For I am petty! If you dont kneel and bow before me then I will cast you to a bad bad place for all of time. You must believe everything I tell you or else you will suffer. Ohh yes, I have tons of evidense/proof, look what I wrote here in this page, see, I wrote it down, that means it MUST be true. I AM THE GREAT GILGAMESH! BOW DOWN BEFORE ME AND HEAR MY ROAR!

No, no, wait. I'm God. You know so because I am telling you so. And I never lie. Also I'm always right. So that kind of settles it. The guy above me didn't say he never lies, therefore he is a fake! Also, I love you. As long as you love me too. Otherwise you are going to burn (but I'll still love you while you cook.)

Worship no other gods before me. Especially that god. That god is a dick.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You simply have faith in the inerrancy of logic rather than the Bible, that the universe, looking ancient, can't be 5 minutes old. Such a notion strikes a logical mind as completely absurd so you can't go there. He can't go where you are because his belief is more important to him than your logic. Each of you believes in a different kind of inerrancy. Perhaps if you took LSD, became the disciple of a Brujo, or took a journey to the psychoanalyst's couch your belief in logic would be upended and fly out the window as a result of some newly revealed and perhaps transcendental paradigm. Perhaps some deeply integrated feeling of oneness would change your perception of love. The question that might then arise is how attached you might be to some need for the certainty of logic.

I assure you, I am under no illusions about the validity of logic and the scope of its application. In fact, it is you that has made a category error in speaking of logic as though it can be meaningfully characterized as "inerrant," or "errant," as it were. Pure logic can tell us nothing about the age of the universe.

That is to say, a 5-minute-old universe is not illogical, strictly speaing. It is unreasonable to believe in such a universe, however.

 

[sandorski]

You're all idiots. I'm making the Universe next week, I just haven't got around to it because of procrastination. All you fools are just part of the memory matrix I will be implanting into the Ant creatures which will be my special creation.