Bible in a Year Thread: 339 days left: Genesis 46-50

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Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
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cliffs:

The second cycle of speeches continue in the same format, with the three friends speaking and Job responding to each one in turn. The speeches are shorter, and it appears their tempers are becoming short as well.

Eliphaz begins with an attack on Job, ridiculing his wisdom. Like Bildad, he too appeals to the wisdom of others as he repeats his main thesis: suffering comes to the wicked, therefore Job must be wicked (15:1-35). Job's response to Eliphaz begins with a reproach of his friends as "miserable comforters".

Job continues to view his suffering as an attack by God for reasons unknown to him. Wishing there was someone who could plead for him, he cries out for relief as he resumes his complaint. With no wisdom from his friends, he is losing hope for anything in this life but death (16:1-17:16).
 

Gilby

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May 12, 2001
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Originally posted by: Stark

personally if find the KJV about as fun as trying to read Beowulf in Olde English

"HWÆT WE GARDE
na in geardagum þeodcyninga"

Once you take the time to get to know the differences in sounds and letters, it's actually quite facinating. Much more interesting than the KJV. Difficult, but facinating.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Originally posted by: ricleo2
Oh no! I wish I had not read this thread. I now have a different view of Anandtech and its majority of readers. I can never think of this site like I used too. Anandtech was perfect in my naive eyes. Truly "innocence lost". Oh well, it was great while it lasted. This is my last post here. Adios.
Hey, you left the door open! It's getting cold in here!
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
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Ok, Job is really long and depressing, so I'm going to post double duty reading until I get through it. Today's section: Job 17-23.

17:1 "My spirit is broken. My days have been snuffed out. The cemetery [is waiting] for me. 2 Certainly, mockers are around me. My eyes are focused on their opposition. 3 Please guarantee my bail yourself. Who else will guarantee it with a handshake? 4 You have closed their minds so that they cannot understand. That is why you will not honor them. 5 (Whoever turns in friends to get their property should have his children's eyesight fail.) 6 "Now he has made me a laughingstock for many people. Now they spit in my face. 7 Now my eyes are blurred from grief. Now all my limbs are like a shadow. 8 Decent people are shocked by this, and it stirs up the innocent against godless people. 9 Yet, the righteous person clings to his way, and the one with clean hands grows stronger.

10 "But now, all of you, come and try again! I won't find one wise man among you. 11 My days are passing by. My plans are broken. My dreams [are shattered]. 12 You say that night is day. Light has nearly become darkness. 13 If I look for the grave as my home and make my bed in the darkness, 14 if I say to the pit, 'You are my father,' and to the worm, 'You are my mother and sister,' 15 then where is my hope? Can you see any hope left in me? 16 Will hope go down with me to the gates of the grave? Will my hope rest with me in the dust?"

Chapter 18
1 Then Bildad from Shuah replied [to Job], 2 "How long before your words will end? Think it through, and then we'll talk. 3 Why do you think of us as cattle? Why are we considered stupid in your eyes? 4 Why do you rip yourself apart in anger? Should the earth be abandoned for your sake or a boulder be dislodged?

5 "Indeed, the light of the wicked is snuffed out. The flame of his fire stops glowing. 6 The light in his tent becomes dark, and the lamp above him is snuffed out. 7 "His healthy stride is shortened, and his own planning trips him up. 8 His own feet get him tangled in a net as he walks around on its webbing. 9 A trap catches his heel. A snare holds him. 10 A rope is hidden on the ground for him. A trap is on his path [to catch] him.

11 "Terrors suddenly pounce on him from every side and chase him every step he takes. 12 Hunger undermines his strength. Disaster is waiting beside him. 13 His skin is eaten away by disease. Death's firstborn son eats away at the limbs of his body. 14 He is dragged from the safety of his tent and marched off to the king of terrors. 15 Fire lives in his tent. Sulfur is scattered over his home. 16 His roots dry up under him. His branches wither over him. 17 All memory about him will vanish from the earth, and his reputation will not be known on the street corner. 18 He will be driven from the light into the dark and chased out of the world. 19 He will not have any children or descendants among his people or any survivor where he used to live. 20 People in the west are shocked by what happens to him. People in the east are seized with horror. 21 This is what happens to the homes of wicked people and to those who do not know God."

Chapter 19
1 Then Job replied [to his friends], 2 "How long will you torment me and depress me with words? 3 You have insulted me ten times now. You're not even ashamed of mistreating me. 4 Even if it were true that I've made a mistake without realizing it, my mistake would affect only me. 5 If you are trying to make yourselves look better than me by using my disgrace as an argument against me, 6 then I want you to know that God has wronged me and surrounded me with his net. 7 Indeed, I cry, 'Help! I'm being attacked!' but I get no response. I call for help, but there is no justice.

8 "God has blocked my path so that I can't go on. He has made my paths dark. 9 He has stripped me of my honor. He has taken the crown off my head. 10 He beats me down on every side until I'm gone. He uproots my hope like a tree. 11 He is very angry at me. He considers me to be his enemy. 12 His troops assemble against me. They build a ramp to attack me and camp around my tent. 13 "My brothers stay far away from me. My friends are complete strangers to me. 14 My relatives and my closest friends have stopped coming. My house guests have forgotten me. 15 My female slaves consider me to be a stranger. I am like a foreigner to them. 16 I call my slave, but he doesn't answer, though I beg him. 17 My breath offends my wife. I stink to my own children. 18 Even young children despise me. If I stand up, they make fun of me. 19 All my closest friends are disgusted with me. Those I love have turned against me. 20 I am skin and bones, and I have escaped only by the skin of my teeth. 21 "Have pity on me, my friends! Have pity on me because God's hand has struck me down. 22 Why do you pursue me as God does? Why are you never satisfied with my flesh?

23 "I wish now my words were written. I wish they were inscribed on a scroll. 24 I wish they were forever engraved on a rock with an iron stylus and lead. 25 But I know that my defender lives, and afterwards, he will rise on the earth. 26 Even after my skin has been stripped off my body, I will see God in my own flesh. 27 I will see him with my own eyes, not with someone else's. My heart fails inside me! 28 "You say, 'We will persecute him! The root of the problem is found in him.' 29 Fear death, because [your anger] is punishable by death. Then you will know there is a judge."

Chapter 20
1 Then Zophar from Naama replied [to Job], 2 "My disturbing thoughts make me answer, and because of them I am upset. 3 I have heard criticism that makes me ashamed, but a spirit beyond my understanding gives me answers. 4 "Don't you know that from ancient times, from the time humans were placed on earth, 5 the triumph of the wicked is short-lived, and the joy of the godless person lasts only a moment? 6 If his height reaches to the sky and his head touches the clouds, 7 he will certainly rot like his own feces. Those who have seen him will say, 'Where is he?' 8 He will fly away like a dream and not be found. He will be chased away like a vision in the night. 9 Eyes that saw him will see him no more. His home will not look at him again.

10 His children will have to ask the poor for help. His own hands will have to give back his wealth. 11 His bones, once full of youthful vigor, will lie down with him in the dust. 12 "Though evil is sweet in his mouth and he hides it under his tongue. . . . 13 Though he savors it and won't let go of it and he holds it on the roof of his mouth, 14 the food in his belly turns sour. It becomes snake venom in his stomach. 15 He vomits up the riches that he swallowed. God forces them out of his stomach. 16 The godless person sucks the poison of snakes. A viper's fang kills him. 17 He won't be able to drink from the streams or from the rivers of honey and buttermilk. 18 He will give back what he earned without enjoying it. He will get no joy from the profits of his business 19 because he crushed and abandoned the poor. He has taken by force a house that he didn't build. 20 He will never know peace in his heart. He will never allow anything he desires to escape [his grasp]. 21 "Nothing is left for him to eat. His prosperity won't last. 22 [Even] with all his wealth the full force of misery comes down on him.

23 Let that misery fill his belly. [God] throws his burning anger at the godless person and makes his wrath come down on him like rain. 24 If that person flees from an iron weapon, a bronze bow will pierce him. 25 He pulls it out, and it comes out of his back. The glittering point comes out of his gallbladder. "Terrors come quickly to the godless person: 26 Total darkness waits in hiding for his treasure. A fire that no one fans will burn him. Whatever is left in his tent will be devoured. 27 Heaven exposes his sin. Earth rises up against him. 28 A flood will sweep away his house, a flash flood on the day of his anger. 29 This is the reward God gives to the wicked person, the inheritance God has appointed for him."

Chapter 21
1 Then Job replied [to his friends], 2 "Listen carefully to my words, and let that be the comfort you offer me. 3 Bear with me while I speak. Then after I've spoken, you may go on mocking. 4 Am I complaining about a person? Why shouldn't I be impatient? 5 Look at me, and be shocked, and put [your] hand over [your] mouth. 6 When I remember it, I'm terrified, and shuddering seizes my body.

7 "Why do the wicked go on living, grow old, and even become more powerful? 8 They see their children firmly established with them, and they get to see their descendants. 9 Their homes are free from fear, and God doesn't use his rod on them. 10 Their bulls are fertile when they breed. Their cows give birth to calves and never miscarry. 11 They send their little children out [to play] like a flock of lambs, and their children dance around. 12 They sing with the tambourine and lyre, and they are happy with the music of the flute. 13 They spend their days in happiness, and they go peacefully to the grave. 14 But they say to God, 'Leave us alone. We don't want to know your ways. 15 Who is the Almighty that we should serve him? What do we gain if we pray to him?' 16 Anyhow, isn't their happiness in their own power? (The plan of the wicked is foreign to my way of thinking.)

17 "How often is the lamp of the wicked snuffed out? How often does disaster happen to them? How often does an angry God give them pain? 18 How often are they like straw in the wind or like husks that the storm sweeps away? 19 "[You say,] 'God saves a person's punishment for his children.' God should pay back that person so that he would know that it is a punishment. 20 His eyes should see his own ruin. He should drink from the wrath of the Almighty. 21 How can he be interested in his family after he's gone, when the number of his months is cut short? 22 "Can anyone teach God knowledge? Can anyone judge the Most High? 23 One person dies in his prime and feels altogether happy and contented. 24 His stomach is full of milk, and his bones are strong and healthy. 25 Another person, never having tasted happiness, dies with a bitter soul. 26 Together they lie down in the dust, and worms cover them.

27 "You see, I know your thoughts and the schemes you plot against me 28 because you ask, 'Where is the house of the influential person? Where is the tent where wicked people live?' 29 Haven't you asked travelers? But you didn't pay attention to their directions. 30 On the day of disaster the wicked person is spared. On the day of [God's] anger he is rescued. 31 Who will tell him to his face how he lived? Who will pay him back for what he did? 32 He is carried to the cemetery, and his grave is guarded. 33 The soil in the creekbed is sweet to him. Everyone follows him. Countless others went before him. 34 How can you comfort me with this nonsense when your answers continue to betray me?"

Chapter 22
1 Then Eliphaz from Teman replied [to Job], 2 "Can a human be of any use to God when even a wise person is only useful to himself? 3 Is the Almighty pleased when you are righteous? Does he gain anything when you follow the path of integrity? 4 Does God correct you and bring you into a court of law because you fear him?

5 "Aren't you really very wicked? Is there no end to your wrongdoing? 6 For no reason you take your brothers' goods as security for a loan and strip them of their clothes. 7 You don't even give a tired person a drink of water, and you take food away from hungry people. 8 A strong person owns the land. A privileged person lives in it. 9 You send widows away empty-handed, and the arms of orphans are broken. 10 That is why traps are all around you and great fear suddenly grips you. 11 [That is why] darkness surrounds you and you cannot see and a flood of water covers you. 12 "Isn't God high above in the heavens? Look how high the highest stars are! 13 You ask, 'What does God know? Can he judge [anything] from behind a dark cloud? 14 Thick clouds surround him so that he cannot see. He walks above the clouds.'

15 "Are you following the old path that wicked people have taken? 16 They are snatched up before their time. A river washes their foundation away. 17 They told God, 'Leave us alone! What can the Almighty do for us?' 18 Yet, he filled their homes with good things. (The plan of the wicked is foreign to my way of thinking.) 19 The righteous saw it and were glad, and the innocent made fun of them by saying, 20 'Indeed, their wealth has been wiped out, and a fire has burned up what [little] they had left.'

21 "Be in harmony and at peace with God. In this way you will have prosperity. 22 Accept instruction from his mouth, and keep his words in your heart. 23 If you return to the Almighty, you will prosper. If you put wrongdoing out of your tent, 24 and lay your gold down in the dust, and put your gold from Ophir among the pebbles in the rivers, 25 then the Almighty will become your gold and your large supply of silver. 26 Then you will be happy with the Almighty and look up toward God. 27 You will pray to him, and he will listen to you, and you will keep your vow to him. 28 When you promise to do something, you will succeed, and light will shine on your path. 29 When others are discouraged, you will say, 'Cheer up!' Then he will save the humble person. 30 He will rescue one who is not innocent. That person will be rescued by your purity."

Chapter 23
1 Then Job replied [to his friends], 2 "My complaint is bitter again today. I try hard to control my sighing. 3 "If only I knew where I could find God! I would go where he lives. 4 I would present [my] case to him. I would have a mouthful of arguments. 5 I want to know the words he would use to answer me. I want to understand the things he would say to me. 6 Would he sue me and hide behind great legal maneuvers? No, he certainly would press charges against me. 7 Then decent people could argue with him, and I would escape my judgment forever.

8 However, if I go east, he isn't there. If I go west, I can't find him. 9 If I go northward, where he is at work, I can't observe him. If I turn southward, I can't see him. 10 [I can't find him] because he knows the road I take. When he tests me, I'll come out as pure as gold. 11 I have followed his footsteps closely. I have stayed on his path and did not turn from it. 12 I have not left his commands behind. I have treasured his words in my heart.

13 "But God is one of a kind. Who can make him change his mind? He does whatever he wants! 14 He will carry out [his] orders concerning me as he does with so many other things. 15 That is why I'm terrified of him. When I think of it, I'm afraid of him. 16 God has discouraged me. The Almighty has filled me with terror. 17 But I am not silenced by the dark or by the thick darkness that covers my face.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
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cliffs:

Job continues to view his suffering as an attack by God for reasons unknown to him. Wishing there was someone who could plead for him, he cries out for relief as he resumes his complaint. With no wisdom from his friends, he is losing hope for anything in this life but death (16:1-17:16).

Bildad angrily wonders "how long" will Job keep speaking this way, and why does he regard his friends as beasts and stupid? In what appears as an attempt to get Job to confess he is a sinner, Bildad provides a lengthy description of the suffering of the wicked (18:1-21). Job responds by asking "how long" would they continue to torment him? While they accuse him of being a great sinner, they have yet to point out his errors. As Job resumes directing his complaint to God, he bewails his loneliness and abandonment by friends and family. And yet, while Job feels God is treating him as an enemy, he affirms his faith in a Redeemer who would one day stand on the earth and in seeing God after his death (19:1-29).

Zophar speaks in what will be his last contribution to this "great debate". While he offers little that is really new to the discussion, he does describe the short-lived triumph of the wicked, to whom the sweetness of sin becomes a bitter curse and whom God will sweep away into darkness. The only problem is that like his friends, he assumes that such is always the case in this life (20:1-29). Job's rebuttal provides examples in which some wicked do prosper in this life, and die an easy death. Therefore his friends' words have proven to be empty
and without comfort (21:1-34).

Eliphaz once again takes the initiative, rebuking Job for his claims of innocence. Accusing Job of great wickedness, for the first time he specifies sins of which he believes Job must be guilty to have suffered so greatly. Charging Job of cherishing wicked ways and trusting that God doesn't see it, Eliphaz ends with another appeal for Job to return to God that he might enjoy renewed prosperity (22:1-30). Job's response is to once again express his longing to find God so he can present his side. While maintaining his claims of integrity and how he has treasured God's words, he admits he is awed by God's dealings. He wonders why the wicked often sin with impunity, but then says what he thinks should and will eventually happen to them. He concludes his response to Eliphaz with a challenge to show him where he has spoken falsely (23:1-24:25).
 

Stark

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Jun 16, 2000
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google is my friend in making sense of Job...

Speaking After the Whirlwind:
The Legacy of Job


by Rabbi David Sulomm Stein,
Congregation Beit Tikvah

This year, the ICJS conducted an inquiry into the Book of Job. Along with other local clergy and educators -- sixteen Christians and sixteen Jews -- I was invited to study the book and explore the issues it brings into focus. We looked together at implications for our preaching, teaching, and pastoral counseling, all the while attending to the ways in which the text has been interpreted by our respective communities. In the process, the ICJS tested a model for interfaith study that alternated plenary sessions featuring visiting biblical scholars and theologians with small-group text study sessions.

In October, 1994, Dr. Steven Vicchio, author of a forthcoming history of the interpretation of Job and Philosophy Professor at the College of Notre Dame of Maryland, noted that the narrative is structured so that the reader cannot blame either the Adversary (Hebrew, satan) or Job for Job's misfortune. Thus, we are being asked to question God's role in human suffering. The sketchiness of the details surrounding Job's afflictions prompts the reader to identify with Job's plight. For example, we are not told what kind of sores he is scratching; the focus is on the itching, the universal experience of agony. Finally, readers are invited to join in the debates that will follow. Job's initial patience and his friends' vigil of silent comfort create psychic space, allowing a reader's latent inner turmoil to emerge. And the words of Job's spouse are ambiguous, testing the reader, drawing her/him in like opinion surveys that accompany political fund-raising letters.

In December, Dr. Peter Pitzele, author of Our Fathers' Wells: A Personal Encounter with the Myths of Genesis (Harper San Francisco, 1995), directed the second plenary session. Originally trained to analyze literature, Dr. Pitzele is now directing psychodrama for psychiatric patients. He shared with us a method of narrative engagement that combines these two fields, thereby demonstrating psychodrama as a potent tool for close reading of the Bible.

Dr. Pitzele asked us to "step into the sandals" of the story's characters. As Job's friend, what goes on in our minds after a week of sitting with him in absolute silence? What considerations begin to nag at us? As Job, how do we respond to our friends' assertions? How comfortable are we with the notion that not everything that happens to us is a direct result of our own behavior? This playful, but serious exercise prompted us to identify with the characters and allowed us to experience the vibrancy and timelessness of an ancient, although often obscure text.

In February, 1995, Dr. Rosann Catalano, ICJS Theologian, explored theological themes and questions in the Book of Job that remain crucial today. For example, what meaning, if any, do we give to suffering? To explicate this question, she turned our attention to the dialogues between God and Job near the end of the book. Job interrogates God: "How can it be that I, a righteous person, am afflicted?"

God never answers this question directly, but says, in effect, "You can hammer away at me all you want, but my answer is:

God is never who we think God is

There is no 'answer' forthcoming! This is my mysterious nature: I do not answer you in your own terms." Surprisingly, the divine presence itself is the answer offered. Dr. Catalano thus asserted that after the book rejects as inadequate the models of God presumed by both Job and his friends, we are left with this dilemma: God is never who we think God is.

Further, on the key line of the book -- Job 42:6, Job's ambiguous response to God -- Dr. Catalano suggested that the text charts a theological journey in which Job lets go of his identity as ultimate victim. By relinquishing his previous world-view, Job undergoes a transformation that repositions him in relation to God and enables him to see God as God desires to be seen.

Dr. Catalano concluded by sketching in broad strokes the lines of thought to a much larger inquiry: what are the implications for Christian faith of the theological claims that emerge from the Book of Job? Are there connections between Job's theological assertions and certain core Christian affirmations? What might be the impact on Christology if Christians allow Job to be a lens through which they interpret the death of Jesus? Might the claims of Christian faith be more clearly apprehended by allowing the theology of Job to act as an interpretive narrative through which the story of Jesus can be told? Such an inquiry reverses the more traditional Christian pattern of understanding Job as prototype of Christ. Dr. Catalano noted, for example, that the book prompts us to question the notion of retributive justice; that is, the idea that if we do good, we will be rewarded, and if we do wrong, we will be punished. This premise is what gets Job "stuck" in the identity of victim. Job is aware that he is not standing in a right relation to God, and that on his own he cannot set things right. Job needs God's help.

For Christians, Christ reveals an alternative model of being related to God and to the world; namely, that those saved by Christ undergo a transformation, like Job after the whirlwind, that repositions them from an adversarial relation to God to one in which God and human beings together face evil, pain, and suffering.

Dr. Catalano was quick to note that this approach to getting "unstuck," or repositioned in relation to God, is embodied in symbols and terms particular to Christians, but that the approach itself is not unique to Christianity. She thus modeled how a deep commitment to one's own particular faith can be combined with respect for the other's tradition.

In May, Dr. Bruce Zuckerman, a scholar of ancient Near Eastern texts who teaches religious studies at the University of Southern California, turned our attention to the book's Epilogue. He asked a powerful moral question: What compensation at the book's end can ever replace the loss of Job's children? He sharpened this question by noting that the story need not have ended the way we now see it; he even inferred from Ezekiel 14 that in another version of the story, Job's original children were restored to him. Dr. Zuckerman then suggested that the present version wants us to confront the God of a flawed cosmos. Job comes to accept that things aren't fair, and so should we. This message is implied by Job's own rhetorical question in 2:10 -- "Should we accept only good from God and not accept evil?"

As a child of survivors of the Holocaust, Dr. Zuckerman identifies with Job's second set of children, who knew that all their older siblings had died suddenly for no reason. "We American Jews are children of Job. Our relatives died for no reason, too. In this sense, the Holocaust was not unique!" For Dr. Zuckerman, the Epilogue is profound in underscoring that life goes on, despite cataclysmic interruptions.

The Study Group's finale on the evening of May 1st consisted of a public presentation honoring the late Dr. A. Vanlier "Van" Hunter, who figured prominently in helping to define the character of the ICJS. This memorial tribute to a much loved scholar brought Drs. Vicchio and Zuckerman together for a dialogue about the legacy of the Book of Job.

In pondering the question, "What does Job see in the whirlwind?," Dr. Vicchio noted, "In the midst of a sandstorm, you can't see anything." Precisely! What Job sees is that he cannot see. And therefore he is content to leave the matter in God's hands, and get on with his life. He is no longer trapped by the problem of suffering.

Dr. Zuckerman, in turn, started with a different query: "What is God really like?" The book's author critiques both glib faith and silent suffering as forms of spiritual morbidity. The book's answer is fascinating, said Dr. Zuckerman. First, there is God's telling response: a set of questions that Job cannot possibly answer. And Job's response to God is a puzzle; it is not clear whether Job speaks out of a sense of connectedness (faith) or of disconnectedness (despair). Job says decisively that he rejects something, but the rejected object is not named; we readers must fill in the blank. Although the thrust of the book invites us to choose faith over despair, the fact remains that we ourselves must make the choice.

Until the ICJS convened this Study Group, I had despaired of making sense of the Book of Job. Studying with the ICJS, in a group of serious yet non-triumphal Christians and Jews, allowed me the safety to seek out my own understanding of the text, knowing that my study partners would be interested in my insights. This was Bible study at its best: not as work, but as ennobling spiritual play. I could not be more pleased or grateful to rediscover the adventure in creative biblical study.
link
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
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another day of double duty reading to finish up Job's speech.

Job Chapter 24

1 "Why doesn't the Almighty set aside times [for punishment]? Why don't those who are close to him see his days [of judgment]? 2 "[People] move boundary markers. They steal flocks and tend them as shepherds. 3 They drive away the orphan's donkey. They take the widow's ox as security for a loan. 4 They force needy people off the road. All the poor people of the country go into hiding. 5 Like wild donkeys in the desert, poor people go out to do their work, looking for food. The plains provide food for their children. 6 They harvest animal food in the field [to feed themselves]. They pick the leftover grapes in the wicked person's vineyard. 7 All night they lie naked without a covering from the cold. 8 They are drenched by the rainstorms in the mountains. They hug the rocks because they can't find shelter. 9 "[People] snatch the [nursing] orphan from a breast and take a poor woman's baby as security for a loan. 10 [That is why] the poor go around naked. They are hungry, yet they carry bundles of grain. 11 They press out olive oil between rows [of olive trees]. They stomp on grapes in wine vats, yet they are thirsty. 12 Those dying in the city groan. Wounded people cry for help, but God pays no attention to their prayers.
13 "Such people are among those who rebel against the light. They are not acquainted with its ways. They do not stay on its paths. 14 At dawn murderers rise; they kill the poor and needy. At night they become thieves. 15 Adulterers watch for twilight. They say, 'No one is watching us,' as they cover their faces. 16 In the dark, they break into houses, [but] by day they lock themselves in. They do not [even] know the light, 17 because morning and deep darkness are the same to them, because they are familiar with the terrors of deep darkness.
18 Such people are like scum on the surface of the water.
Their property is cursed in the land. People do not travel the road that goes to their vineyards. 19 [Just as] drought and heat steal water from snow, so the grave steals people who sin. 20 The womb forgets them. Worms feast on them. No one remembers them anymore, and wickedness is snapped like a twig. 21 These men take advantage of childless women. These men show no kindness to widows. 22 [God] will drag away [these] mighty men by his power. These people may prosper, but they will never feel secure about life. 23 [God] may let them feel confident and self-reliant, but his eyes are on their ways. 24 [Such people] may be prosperous for a little while, but then they're gone. They are brought down low and disappear like everything else. They wither like heads of grain. 25 "If it isn't so, who can prove I'm a liar and show that my words are worthless?"

Chapter 25
1 Then Bildad from Shuah replied [to Job], 2 "Authority and terror belong to God. He establishes peace in his high places. 3 Is there any [limit to the] number of his troops? Is there anyone on whom his light does not rise? 4 How can a person be righteous to God? How can anyone born of a woman be pure? 5 Even the moon isn't bright, and the stars aren't pure in his sight. 6 How much less pure is a mortal--who is only a maggot-- a descendant of Adam--who is only a worm!"

Chapter 26
1 Then Job replied [to his friends], 2 "You have helped the person who has no power and saved the arm that isn't strong. 3 You have advised the person who has no wisdom and offered so much assistance. 4 To whom have you spoken [these] words, and whose spirit has spoken through you?
5 "The souls of the dead tremble beneath the water, and so do the creatures living there. 6 Sheol is naked in God's presence, and Abaddon has no clothing. 7 "He stretches out his heavens over empty space. He hangs the earth on nothing whatsoever. 8 He holds the water in his thick clouds, and the clouds don't [even] split under its [weight]. 9 He covers his throne by spreading his cloud over it. 10 He marks the horizon on the surface of the water at the boundary where light meets dark. 11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished when he yells at them. 12 With his power he calmed the sea. With his insight he killed Rahab [the sea monster]. 13 With his wind the sky was cleared. With his hand he stabbed the fleeing snake. 14 "These are only glimpses of what he does. We [only] hear a whisper of him! Who can understand the thunder of his power?"

Chapter 27
1 Job continued his poems and said, 2 "I swear an oath by God, the one who has taken away my rights, by the Almighty, who has made my life bitter: 3 'As long as there is one breath
in me and God's breath fills my nostrils, 4 my lips will not say anything wrong, and my tongue will not mumble anything deceitful.' 5 It's unthinkable for me to admit that you are right. Until I breathe my last breath, I will never give up my claim of integrity. 6 I cling to my righteousness and won't let go. My conscience won't accuse me as long as I live.
7 "Let my enemy be [treated] like wicked people. Let anyone who attacks me be [treated] like unrighteous people. 8 After all, what hope does the godless person have when he is cut off, when God takes away his life? 9 Will God hear his cry when trouble comes upon him? 10 Can he be happy with the Almighty? Can he call on God at all times?
11 "I will teach you about God's power. I will not hide what the Almighty has done. 12 Certainly, you have all seen it. Why then do you chatter on about such nonsense? 13 This is what God has waiting for the wicked person, the inheritance that tyrants receive from the Almighty: 14 If he has many children, swords will kill them, and his descendants won't have enough food. 15 Those who survive him will be buried by a plague, and their widows won't cry [for them]. 16 Though he collects silver like dust and piles up clothing like dirt, 17 righteous people will wear what he piles up, and the innocent will divide the silver [among themselves]. 18 He builds his house like a moth, like a shack that a watchman makes. 19 He may go to bed rich, but he'll never be rich again. When he opens his eyes, nothing will be left. 20 Terrors overtake him like a flood. A windstorm snatches him away at night. 21 The east wind carries him away, and he's gone. It sweeps him from his place. 22 It hurls itself at him without mercy. He flees from its power. 23 It claps its hands over him. It whistles at him from his own place.

Chapter 28
1 "There is a place where silver is mined and a place where gold is refined. 2 Iron is taken from the ground, and rocks are melted for [their] copper. 3 [Humans] bring an end to darkness [there] and search to the limit of the gloomy, pitch-black rock. 4 They open up a mineshaft far from civilization, where no one has set foot. [In this shaft] men dangle and swing back and forth. 5 "Above the ground food grows, but beneath it the food decays as if [it were burned] by fire. 6 That place's stones are sapphire. Its dust contains gold. 7 No bird of prey knows the way to it. No hawk's eye has ever seen it. 8 No proud beast has ever walked on it. No ferocious lion has ever passed over it. 9 "Humans exert their power on the flinty rocks and overturn mountains at their base. 10 They cut out mineshafts in the rocks. Their eyes see every precious thing. 11 They explore the sources of rivers so that they bring hidden treasures to light. 12 "Where can wisdom be found? Where does understanding live? 13 No mortal knows where it is. It cannot be found in this world of the living.
14 The deep ocean says, 'It isn't in me.' The sea says, 'It isn't with me.' 15 You cannot obtain it with solid gold or buy it for any amount of silver. 16 It can't be bought with the gold from Ophir or with precious onyx or sapphire. 17 Neither gold nor glass can equal its value. Nor can gold ornaments, jewels, or crystal 18 be exchanged for it. Wisdom is more valuable than gems. 19 Topaz from Ethiopia cannot equal its value. It cannot be bought for [any amount of] pure gold.
20 "Where does wisdom come from? Where does understanding live? 21 It is hidden from the eyes of every living being, hidden even from the birds in the air. 22 Decay and Death say, 'We've heard a rumor about it.' 23 "God understands the way to it. He knows where it lives 24 because he can see to the ends of the earth and observe everything under heaven. 25 When he gave the wind its force and measured the water [in the sea], 26 when he made rules for the rain and set paths for the thunderstorms, 27 then he saw it and announced it. He confirmed it and examined it. 28 So he told humans, 'The fear of the Lord is wisdom! To stay away from evil is understanding.'"


Chapter 29
1 Job continued his poems and said, 2 "If only my life could be like it used to be, in the days when God watched over me, 3 when he made his lamp shine on my head, when I walked through the dark in his light. 4 If only I were in the prime of my life [again], when God was an adviser in my tent. 5 When the Almighty was still with me and my children were around me, 6 my steps were bathed in buttermilk, and the rocks poured streams of olive oil on me.
7 When I went through the city gate and took my seat in the town square, 8 young men saw me and kept out of sight. Old men stood up straight out of respect [for me]. 9 Princes held back [their] words and put their hands over their mouths. 10 The voices of nobles were hushed, and their tongues stuck to the roofs of their mouths. 11 "[Any] ears that heard me blessed me. [Any] eyes that saw me spoke well of me, 12 because I rescued the poor who called [for help] and the orphans who had no one to help them. 13 I received a blessing from the dying. I made the widow's heart sing for joy. 14 I put on righteousness, and it was my clothing. I practiced justice, and it was my robe and my turban. 15 I was eyes for the blind person. I was feet for the lame person. 16 I was father to the needy. I carefully investigated cases brought by strangers. 17 I broke the teeth of the wicked person and made him drop the prey out of his mouth.
18 "I thought, 'I may die in my own house, but I will make my days as numerous as the sand. 19 My roots will grow toward the water, and dew will lie on my branches all night. 20 My power will be fresh [every day], and the bow in my hand will remain new.' 21 "People listened to me eagerly, quietly waiting for my advice. 22 After I had spoken, they wouldn't speak again. After all, my words fell gently on them. 23 They were as eager to hear me as they were for rain. They opened their mouths wide as if waiting for a spring shower. 24 When I smiled at them, they could hardly believe it, but the expression on my face did not change. 25 I decided how they should live. I sat as their leader. I lived like a king among his troops, like one who comforts mourners.

Chapter 30
1 "But now those who are younger than I am laugh at me. I didn't think their fathers were fit to sit with the dogs of my flock. 2 Of what use to me was the strength of their hands? Their strength is gone. 3 Shriveled up from need and hunger, they gnaw at the dry and barren ground during the night. 4 They pick saltwort from the underbrush, and the roots of the broom plant are their food. 5 They are driven from the community. People shout at them in the same way they shout at thieves. 6 They have to live in dry riverbeds, in holes in the ground, and among rocks. 7 They howl in bushes and huddle together under thornbushes. 8 Godless fools and worthless people are forced out of the land with whips. 9 "And now they make fun of me with songs. I have become a joke to them. 10 Since they consider me disgusting, they keep their distance from me and don't hesitate to spit in my face. 11 Because God has untied my cord and has made me suffer, they are no longer restrained in my presence. 12 They have attacked me on my right side like a mob. They trip my feet and then prepare ways to destroy me. 13 Yes, they remove all traces of my path in order to destroy me. No one is there to help me against them. 14 They come through a wide hole [in the wall]. They crawl through the ruins.
15 Terrors are directed toward me. They blow away my dignity like the wind. My prosperity vanishes like a cloud. 16 "Now my life is pouring out of me. Days of suffering seize me. 17 At night God pierces my bones. My body doesn't rest. 18 With great strength he grabs my clothes. He seizes me by the collar of my robe. 19 He throws me into the dirt so that I become like dust and ashes. 20 "I call to you for help, but you don't answer me. I stand up, but you just look at me. 21 You have begun to treat me cruelly. With your mighty hand you assault me. 22 You pick me up and let the wind carry me away. You toss me around with a storm. 23 I know you will lead me to death, to the dwelling place appointed for all living beings. 24 "But God doesn't stretch out his hand against one who is ruined when that person calls for help in his disaster. 25 Didn't I cry for the person whose days were difficult? Didn't my soul grieve for the poor? 26 When I waited for good, evil came. When I looked for light, darkness came. 27 My insides are churning and won't calm down. Days of misery are ahead of me. 28 I walk in the dark without the sun. I stand up in public and call for help. 29 I'm a brother to jackals and a companion of ostriches. 30 My skin turns dark and peels. My body burns with fever. 31 So my lyre is used for mourning and my flute for loud weeping.

Chapter 31
1 "I have made an agreement with my eyes. Then how can I look with lust at a virgin? 2 What would God above do [to me]? What would be my inheritance from the Almighty on high? 3 Aren't there catastrophes for wicked people and disasters for those who do wrong? 4 Doesn't he see my ways and count all my steps? 5 "If I have walked with lies or my feet have run after deception, 6 [then] let God weigh me on honest scales, and he will know I have integrity. 7 "If my steps have left the [proper] path, or my heart has followed [the desire of] my eyes, or my hands are stained [with sin], 8 [then] let someone else eat what I have planted, and let my crops be uprooted.
9 "If I have been seduced by a woman or I have secretly waited near my neighbor's door, 10 [then] let my wife grind for another [man], and let other [men] kneel over her. 11 That would be a scandal, and that would be a criminal offense. 12 It would be a fire that burns even in Abaddon. It would uproot my entire harvest. 13 "If I have abused the rights of my servants, male or female, when they have disagreed with me, 14 then what could I do if God rises up? If he examines me, how could I answer him? 15 Didn't he who made me in my mother's belly make them? Didn't the same God form us in the womb?
16 "If I have refused the requests of the poor or made a widow's eyes stop [looking for help], 17 or have eaten my food alone without letting the orphan eat any of it.... 18 (From my youth the orphan grew up with me as though I were his father, and from my birth I treated the widow kindly.) 19 If I have seen anyone die because he had no clothes or a poor person going naked.... 20 (If his body didn't bless me, or the wool from my sheep didn't keep him warm....) 21 If I have shaken my fist at an orphan because I knew that others would back me up in court, 22 [then] let my shoulder fall out of its socket, and let my arm be broken at the elbow. 23 "A disaster from God terrifies me. In the presence of his majesty I can do nothing.
24 "If I put my confidence in gold or said to fine gold, 'I trust you'.... 25 If I enjoyed being very rich because my hand had found great [wealth].... 26 If I saw the light shine or the moon move along in its splendor 27 so that my heart was secretly tempted, and I threw them a kiss with my hand, 28 then that, too, would be a criminal offense, and I would have denied God above. 29 "If I enjoyed the ruin of my enemy or celebrated when harm came to him 30 (even though I didn't speak sinfully by calling down a curse on his life).... 31 "If the people who were in my tent had said, 'We wish we had never filled [our stomachs] with his food'.... 32 (The visitor never spent the night outside, because I opened my door to the traveler.)
33 "If I have covered my disobedience like Adam and kept my sin to myself, 34 because I dreaded the large, noisy crowd and because the contempt of the [local] mobs terrified me so that I kept quiet and didn't go outside.... 35 "If only I had someone who would listen to me! Look, here is my signature! Let the Almighty answer me. Let the prosecutor write [his complaint] on a scroll. 36 I would certainly carry it on my shoulder and place it on my head like a crown. 37 I would tell him the number of my steps and approach him like a prince. 38 "If my land has cried out against me, and its furrows have wept .... 39 If I have eaten its produce without paying for it and made its owners breathe their last, 40 [then] let it grow thistles instead of wheat, and foul-smelling weeds instead of barley." This is the end of Job's words.

 

Stark

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cliffs:

While maintaining his claims of integrity and how he has treasured God's words, Job admits he is awed by God's dealings. He wonders why the wicked often sin with impunity, but then says what he thinks should and will eventually happen to them. He concludes his response to Eliphaz with a challenge to show him where he has spoken falsely (23:1-24:25).

Bildad's third speech is short, adding little. Speaking briefly of God's greatness, he posits how anyone can be righteous before God (25:1-6). Job replies with questions which imply that he considers Bildad's counsel to have been of no help. Perhaps to illustrate how they have not been much help, Job demonstrates his own ability to describe God's greatness (26:1-14).

Zophar remains silent in this third cycle of speeches, so Job continues with his discourse. Though he feels that God has taken away his justice and made his soul bitter, he refuses to accept his friends' counsel and maintains his innocence. He accuses them of nonsense and describes what God will do with the wicked (27:1-23). Job then says where true wisdom is to be found, that it comes from God Who has revealed it to man (28:1-28). As his words draw near to their end, Job recounts how it was in the past when he blessed by God and respected by men (29:1-25). In contrast, the present finds him being mocked by others, suffering in pain, with God not answering his plea to be heard (30:1-31). He concludes by listing various sins, which if he had committed them, he agrees he would have been guilty of punishment. In this way he again maintains his claim to innocence and not deserving his great suffering (31:1-40). For Job and his three friends, this ends the "Great Debate".

interesting points:
Sheol/Abaddon (Hell)
Rahab (sea monster of Red Sea)
 

Stark

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yesterday i got caught up in the holocaust debate and ran out of time for this thread. So today I'll do 2 days, one in the morning (pst) and one in the afternoon.

But first, thanks to Citrix listening to Coast to Coast, the freakshow latenight radio program, I checked the website and noticed that there was a discussion last night about Noah's Ark and Creation.

Noah's Ark & Creation
Physicist Brooks Agnew discussed Noah's Ark and the age and origin of the Earth. He believes the Earth is both 7,000 years old and 4.5 billion years old. To account for this seeming contradiction, Agnew's creation theory proposes there are two Earths: one temporal (physical), the other spiritual. "Those two Earths were brought together to make this living, vibrating planet upon which we live," he said.

According to Agnew, the Genesis account describes the creation of two "water planets" separated by heaven. One of the planets, the spiritual one upon which Noah resided, was moved like an Ark across the "cosmic sea" to our solar system through a black hole. Agnew speculates that black holes were created for the purpose of traveling from one point in the universe to another.

Agnew suggested the two Earths came together in a "union of the polarity" so that God's children could reach their full potential. He also talked about the Nephilim, a race of giant "off-worlders" with six fingers, six toes, and multiple rows of teeth. He believes they corrupted the morals of Earth's early inhabitants, in an effort to make the planet unsuitable for the birth of the Son of God.
here's the guys website

if anyone wants to buy the book for $30 and read it, you can know the answer to these Bible mysteries...

Discover stunning proof about the real age and origin of the earth! Wouldn't you love to know the real story of Noah's Ark?

Y Where is heaven?

Y Who were the Nephilim, and did they really build the pyramids?

Y Where did the Earth really come from?

Y What were the Templars really looking for?

Y Is there a common origin for all modern civilizations?

Y Are black holes used intelligently to travel the universe?

:D
 

Stark

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Day 10 - Job 32-34
1 These three men stopped answering Job because Job thought he was righteous. 2 Then Elihu, son of Barachel, a descendant of Buz from the family of Ram, became very angry with Job because Job thought he was more righteous than God. 3 Elihu was also very angry with Job's three friends because they had found no answer. They made it look as if God were wrong. 4 Elihu waited as they spoke to Job because they were older than he was. 5 When Elihu saw that the three men had no further responses, he became very angry.

6 So Elihu, son of Barachel, the descendant of Buz, replied [to Job], "I am young, and you are old. That's why I refrained from speaking and was afraid to tell you what I know. 7 I thought, 'Age should speak, and experience should teach wisdom.' 8 However, there is in humans a Spirit, the breath of the Almighty, that gives them understanding. 9 People do not become wise merely because they live long. They don't understand what justice is merely because they're old. 10 "That is why I say, 'Listen to me! Let me tell you what I know.' 11 I waited for you to speak. I listened for you to share your understanding until you could find the right words. 12 I've paid close attention to you, but none of you refuted Job. None of you has an answer to what he says. 13 So don't say, 'We've found wisdom. Let God, not humans, defeat him.' 14 Job did not choose his words to refute me, so I won't answer him with your speeches.

15 "Job's friends have been overwhelmed and don't have any more answers. They don't have another word to say. 16 Should I wait because they don't speak, because they stand there and don't have any more answers? 17 "I'll give my answer. I'll tell you what I know. 18 I'm full of words. The Spirit within me forces me [to speak]. 19 My belly is like [a bottle of] wine that has not been opened, like new wineskins that are ready to burst. 20 I must speak to get relief. I must open my mouth and answer. 21 I won't be partial toward anyone or flatter anyone. 22 I don't know how to flatter. If I did, my maker would soon carry me away.

Chapter 33

1 "Please, Job, listen to my words and consider everything I say. 2 I've opened my mouth. The words are on the tip of my tongue. 3 My words are straight from the heart, and I sincerely speak the knowledge that is on my lips. 4 "God's Spirit has made me. The breath of the Almighty gives me life. 5 Answer me if you can. Present your case to me, and take your stand. 6 Indeed, I stand in front of God as you do. I, too, was formed from a piece of clay. 7 You certainly don't need to be terrified of me. I won't put too much pressure on you.

8 "But you spoke directly to me, and I listened to your words. 9 [You said,] 'I'm pure--without any rebellious acts [against God]. I'm clean; I have no sin. 10 God is only looking for an excuse to attack me. He considers me his enemy. 11 He puts my feet in the stocks and watches all my paths.' 12 You aren't right about this! I've got an answer for you: God is greater than any mortal. 13 Why do you quarrel with him since he doesn't answer any questions?

14 "God speaks in one way, even in two ways without people noticing it: 15 In a dream, a prophetic vision at night, when people fall into a deep sleep, when they sleep on their beds, 16 he opens people's ears and terrifies them with warnings. 17 [He warns them] to turn away from doing [wrong] and to stop being arrogant. 18 He keeps their souls from the pit and their lives from crossing the River [of Death].

19 In pain on their sickbeds, they are disciplined with endless aching in their bones 20 so that their whole being hates food and they lose their appetite for a delicious meal. 21 Their flesh becomes so thin that it can't be seen. Their bones, not seen before, will be exposed. 22 Their souls approach the pit. Their lives come close to those already dead. 23 "If they have a messenger for them, a spokesman, one in a thousand, to tell people what is right for them, 24 then he will have pity on them and say, 'Free them from going into the pit. I have found a ransom.' 25 Then their flesh will become softer than a child's. They will go back to the days of their youth. 26 They will pray to God, who will be pleased with them. They will see God's face and shout for joy as he restores their righteousness. 27 Each one sings in front of other people and says, 'I sinned and did wrong instead of what was right, and it did me no good. 28 The messenger has freed my soul from going into the pit, and my life will see the light.'

29 Truly, God does all this two or three times with people 30 to turn their souls away from the pit and to enlighten them with the light of life.
31 "Pay attention, Job! Listen to me! Keep quiet, and let me speak. 32 If you have a response, answer me. Speak, because I'd be happy if you were right. 33 If not, you listen to me. Keep quiet, and I'll teach you wisdom."

Chapter 34

1 Elihu continued to speak [to Job and his friends], 2 "Listen to my words, you wise men. Open your ears to me, you intelligent men. 3 The ear tests words like the tongue tastes food. 4 Let's decide for ourselves what is right and agree among ourselves as to what is good, 5 because Job has said, 'I'm righteous, but God has taken away my rights. 6 I'm considered a liar in spite of my rights. I've been wounded by a deadly arrow, though I haven't been disobedient.' 7 What person is like Job, who drinks scorn like water, 8 who travels with troublemakers and associates with evil people? 9 He says, 'It doesn't do any good to try to please God.'

10 "You people who have understanding, listen to me. It is unthinkable that God would ever do evil or that the Almighty would ever do wicked things. 11 God will repay humanity for what it has done and will give each person what he deserves. 12 Certainly, God will never do anything evil, and the Almighty will never pervert justice. 13 Who put him in charge of the earth? Who appointed him to be over the whole world? 14 If he thought only of himself and withdrew his Spirit and his breath, 15 all living beings would die together, and humanity would return to dust.

16 "If you understand, listen to this. Open your ears to my words! 17 Should anyone who hates justice be allowed to govern? Will you condemn the one who is righteous and mighty? 18 Should anyone [even] say to a king, 'You good-for-nothing scoundrel!' or to nobles, 'You wicked people!' 19 The one who is righteous and mighty does not grant special favors to princes or prefer important people over poor people because his hands made them all. 20 They die suddenly in the middle of the night. People have seizures and pass away. Mighty people are taken away but not by human hands. 21 God's eyes are on a person's ways. He sees all his steps. 22 There's no darkness or deep shadow where troublemakers can hide. 23 He doesn't have to set a time for a person in order to bring him to divine judgment. 24 He breaks mighty people into pieces without examining them and puts others in their places. 25 He knows what they do, so he overthrows them at night, and they're crushed. 26 In return for their evil, he strikes them in public, 27 because they turned away from following him and didn't consider any of his ways. 28 They forced the poor to cry out to him, and he hears the cry of those who suffer. 29 If he keeps quiet, who can condemn him? If he hides his face, who can see him whether it is a nation or a single person? 30 [He does this] so that godless people cannot rule and so that they cannot trap people.

31 "But suppose such a person says to God, 'I am guilty, I will stop my immoral behavior. 32 Teach me what I cannot see. If I've done wrong, I won't do it again.' 33 Should God reward you on your own terms since you have rejected his? You must choose, not I. Tell me what you know. Speak! 34 "People of understanding, the wise people who listen to me, will say, 35 'Job speaks without knowledge. His words show no insight.' 36 "My Father, let Job be thoroughly tested for giving answers like wicked people do. 37 He adds disobedience to his sin. He claps his hands to insult us. He multiplies his words against God."
 

Stark

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cliffs

We are now introduced to a new voice in this discussion. Having remained silent up to this point because of his youth, Elihu now speaks. Angry with Job justifying himself rather than God, and by the inability of Job's friends to provide an answer, Elihu feels compelled to speak (32:1-33:7). He takes issue with Job's claim of innocence while charging God with counting him as His enemy. He proposes that God often uses various means to keep man from death ("the Pit"), including chastening with pain. Therefore Job should be looking at suffering as a disciplinary measure from a loving God, not as a punitive measure from one's enemy (33:8-33).

The bulk of Elihu's speech then focuses on the justice of God, which Elihu feels Job has maligned. Elihu charges Job with adding to his sin by multiplying words against God without knowledge (34:1-35:36). He concludes his speech with an effort to speak on God's behalf and by ascribing righteousness to the Almighty. This he does by reviewing God's justice and majesty. The former as seen in His dealings with man, the latter as seen in His dealings in nature. With an admonition for Job to stand still and consider the wondrous works of God, Elihu seems to be preparing Job for what is about to follow (36:1-37:24).
 

Stark

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and now for the conclusion of today's double reading... we see Elihu continue to pwn! his elders...

Chapter 35

1 Elihu continued to speak [to Job and his friends], 2 "Do you think this is right when you say, 'My case is more just than God's,' 3 when you ask, 'What benefit is it to you?' and, 'What would I gain by sinning?' 4 I will answer you and your friends. 5 "Look at the heavens and see. Observe the clouds high above you. 6 If you've sinned, what effect can you have on God? If you've done many wrongs, what can you do to him? 7 If you're righteous, what can you give him, or what can he get from you? 8 Your wickedness affects only someone like yourself. Your righteousness affects only the descendants of Adam.

9 The weight of oppression makes them cry out. The power of mighty people makes them call for help. 10 But no one asks, 'Where is God, my Creator, who inspires songs in the night, 11 who teaches us more than he teaches the animals of the earth, who makes us wiser than the birds in the sky?' 12 Then they cry out, but he doesn't answer them because of the arrogance of [those] evil people. 13 "Surely, God doesn't listen to idle complaints. The Almighty doesn't even pay attention to them.

14 Although you say that you pay attention to him, your case is in front of him, but you'll have to wait for him. 15 And now [you say] that his anger doesn't punish [anyone] and he isn't too concerned about evil. 16 Job opens his mouth for no good reason and talks a lot without having any knowledge."

Chapter 36

1 Elihu continued to speak [to Job], 2 "Be patient with me a little longer, and I will show you that there is more to be said in God's defense. 3 I will get my knowledge from far away and prove that my Creator is fair. 4 Certainly, my words are not lies. The one who knows everything is [speaking] with you.

5 "Certainly, God is mighty. He doesn't despise anyone. He is mighty and brave. 6 He doesn't allow the wicked person to live. He grants justice to those who are oppressed. 7 He doesn't take his eyes off righteous people. He seats them on thrones with kings to honor them forever. 8 However, if righteous people are bound in chains and tangled in ropes of misery, 9 he tells them what they've done wrong and that they've behaved arrogantly. 10 He makes them listen to his warning and orders them to turn away from wrong. 11 "If righteous people listen and serve [him], they will live out their days in prosperity and their years in comfort. 12 But if they don't listen, they will cross the River [of Death] and die like those who have no knowledge. 13 But those who have godless hearts remain angry. They don't even call for help when he chains them up. 14 They die while they're young, or they live on as male prostitutes in the temples of idols. :eek:

15 He rescues suffering people through their suffering, and he opens their ears through distress. 16 "Yes, he lured you away from the jaws of trouble into an open area where you were not restrained, and your table was covered with rich foods. 17 But you are given the judgment evil people deserve. A fair judgment will be upheld. 18 Be careful that you are not led astray with riches. Don't let a large bribe turn you [to evil ways]. 19 Will your riches save you from having to suffer? Will all your mighty strength help you? 20 Don't look forward to the night, when people disappear from their places. 21 Be careful! Don't turn to evil, because you have chosen evil instead of suffering. 22 "God does great things by his power. Is there any teacher like him? 23 Who can tell him which way he should go? Who can say to him, 'You did wrong'?

24 Remember that you should praise his work. People have sung about it. 25 Every person has seen it. Mortals have looked at it from a distance. 26 "Certainly, God is so great that he is beyond our understanding. The number of his years cannot be counted. 27 He collects drops of water. He distills rain from his mist, 28 which then drips from the clouds. It pours down on many people. 29 Can anyone really understand how clouds spread out or how he thunders from his dwelling place? 30 Look, he scatters his flashes of lightning around him and covers the depths of the sea. 31 This is how he uses the rains to provide for people and to give them more than enough food. 32 He fills his hands with lightning and orders it to hit the target. 33 The thunder announces his coming. The storm announces his angry wrath.

Chapter 37
1 "My heart pounds because of this and jumps out of its place. 2 Listen! Listen to the roar of God's voice, to the rumbling that comes from his mouth. 3 He flashes his lightning everywhere under heaven. His light flashes to the ends of the earth. 4 It is followed by the roar of his voice. He thunders with his majestic voice. He doesn't hold the lightning back when his thunder is heard. 5 God's voice thunders in miraculous ways. It does great things that we cannot understand.

6 "He says to the snow, 'Fall to the ground,' and to the pouring rain, 'Rain harder!' 7 He makes it impossible to do anything so that people will recognize his work. 8 Animals go into their dens and stay in their lairs. 9 A storm comes out of its chamber. It is cold because of the strong winds. 10 God's breath produces ice, and the seas freeze over. 11 Yes, he loads the thick clouds with moisture and scatters his lightning from the clouds. 12 He guides the clouds as they churn round and round over the face of the inhabited earth to do everything he orders them. 13 Whether for discipline, or for [the good of] his earth, or out of mercy, he makes the storm appear.

14 "Open your ears to this, Job. Stop and consider God's miracles. 15 Do you know how God controls them and makes the lightning flash from his clouds? 16 Do you know how the clouds drift (these are the miracles of the one who knows everything), 17 you whose clothes are hot and sweaty, when the earth is calm under a south wind? 18 Can you stretch out the skies with him and make them as firm as a mirror made of metal? 19 Teach us what we should say to him. We are unable to prepare [a case] because of darkness. 20 Should he be told that I want to speak? Can a person speak when he is confused?

21 People can't look at the sun when it's bright among the clouds or after the wind has blown and cleared those clouds away. 22 A golden light comes from the north. A terrifying majesty is around God. 23 The Almighty, whom we can't reach, is great in power and judgment, has more than enough righteousness, and does not oppress. 24 That is why people should fear him. He does not respect those who think they're wise."

Only one day of Job left! Tomorrow God responds to all this talkin' (and talkin... and talkin).
 

Stark

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God answers Job

Chapter 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. 2 "Who is this that belittles my advice with words that do not show any knowledge [about it]? 3 Brace yourself like a man! I will ask you, and you will teach me.

4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have [such] insight. 5 Who determined its dimensions? Certainly, you know! Who stretched a measuring line over it? 6 On what were its footings sunk? Who laid its cornerstone 7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 "Who shut the sea behind gates when it burst through and came out of the womb, 9 when I clothed it with clouds and wrapped it up in dark clouds, 10 when I set a limit for it and put up bars and gates, 11 when I said, 'You may come this far but no farther. Here your proud waves will stop'?

12 "Have you ever given orders to the morning or assigned a place for the dawn 13 so that it could grab the earth by its edges and shake wicked people out of it? 14 The earth changes like clay stamped by a seal, and [parts of it] stand out like [folds in] clothing. 15 Wicked people are deprived of their light, and an arm raised [in victory] is broken. 16 Have you gone to the springs in the sea or walked through the valleys of the ocean depths? 17 Have the gateways to death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gateways to total darkness? 18 Have you [even] considered how wide the earth is? Tell me, if you know all of this! 19 "What is the way to the place where light lives? Where is the home of darkness 20 so that you may lead it to its territory, so that you may know the path to its home? 21 You must know because you were born then and have lived such a long time! 22 Have you been to the warehouses where snow is stored or seen the warehouses for hail 23 that I have stored up for the time of trouble, for the day of battle and war? 24 Which is the way to the place where light is scattered and the east wind is spread across the earth?

25 "Who made a channel for the flooding rains and a path for the thunderstorms 26 to bring rain on a land where no one lives, on a desert where there are no humans, 27 to saturate the desolate wasteland in order to make it sprout with grass? 28 Does the rain have a father? Who gave birth to the dewdrops? 29 From whose womb came the ice, and who has given birth to the frost in the air? 30 The water hardens like a stone, and the surface of the ocean freezes over. 31 "Can you connect the chains of the [constellation] Pleiades or untie the ropes of Orion? 32 Can you bring out the constellations at the right time or guide Ursa Major with its cubs? 33 Do you know the laws of the sky or make them rule the earth? 34 Can you call to the clouds and have a flood of water cover you? 35 Can you send lightning flashes so that they may go and say to you, 'Here we are'? 36 Who put wisdom in the heart or gave understanding to the mind? 37 Who is wise enough to count the clouds or pour out the water jars of heaven 38 when the dirt hardens into clumps and the soil clings together? 39 "Can you hunt prey for the lioness and satisfy the hunger of her cubs 40 as they crouch in their dens and lie ready to ambush from their lairs? 41 "Who provides food for the crow when its young ones cry to God and wander around in need of food?

Chapter 39
1 "Do you know the time when the mountain goats give birth? Do you watch the does when they are in labor? 2 Can you count the months they are pregnant or know the time when they'll give birth? 3 They kneel down to give birth and deliver their young. Then the pain of giving birth is over. 4 Their young are healthy and grow up in the wild. They leave and don't come back. 5 "Who lets the wild donkey go free? Who unties the ropes of the wild donkey? 6 I gave it the desert to live in and the salt flats as its dwelling place. 7 It laughs at the noise of the city and doesn't [even] listen to the shouting of its master. 8 It explores the mountains for its pasture and looks for anything green. 9 "Will the wild ox agree to serve you, or will it stay at night beside your feeding trough? 10 Can you guide a wild ox in a furrow, or will it plow the valleys behind you? 11 Can you trust it just because it's so strong or leave your labor to it? 12 Can you rely on it to bring your grain back and take it to your threshing floor?

13 "Does the ostrich flap its wings in joy, or do its wings lack feathers? 14 It lays its eggs on the ground and warms them in the dust. 15 It forgets that a foot may crush them or a wild animal may trample them. 16 It acts harshly toward its young as if they weren't its own. It is not afraid that its work is for nothing 17 because God has deprived it of wisdom and did not give it any understanding. 18 It laughs at the horse and its rider when it gets up to flee.

19 "Can you give strength to a horse or dress its neck with a flowing mane? 20 Can you make it leap like a locust, when its snorting causes terror? 21 It paws in strength and finds joy in its power. It charges into battle. 22 It laughs at fear, is afraid of nothing, and doesn't back away from swords. 23 A quiver of arrows rattles on it along with the flashing spear and javelin. 24 Anxious and excited, the horse eats up the ground and doesn't trust the sound of the ram's horn. 25 As often as the horn sounds, the horse says, 'Aha!' and it smells the battle far away-- the thundering [orders] of the captains and the battle cries.

26 "Does your understanding make a bird of prey fly and spread its wings toward the south? 27 Is it by your order that the eagle flies high and makes its nest on the heights? 28 It perches for the night on a cliff. Its fortress is on a jagged peak. 29 From there it seeks food, and its eyes see it from far away. 30 Its young ones feed on blood. It is found wherever there are dead bodies."

Chapter 40
1 The LORD responded to Job, 2 "Will the person who finds fault with the Almighty correct him? Will the person who argues with God answer him?" 3 Job answered the LORD, 4 "I'm so insignificant. How can I answer you? I will put my hand over my mouth. 5 I spoke once, but I can't answer-- twice, but not again."

6 Then the LORD responded to Job out of a storm, 7 "Brace yourself like a man! I will ask you, and you will teach me. 8 "Would you undo my justice? Would you condemn me so that you can be righteous? 9 Do you have power like God's? Can you thunder with a voice like his? 10 Then dress yourself in majesty and dignity. Clothe yourself in splendor and glory. 11 Unleash your outbursts of anger. Look at all who are arrogant, and put them down. 12 Look at all who are arrogant, and humble them. Crush wicked people wherever they are. 13 Hide them completely in the dust, and cover their faces in the hidden place. 14 Then even I will praise you because your right hand can save you.

15 "Look at Behemoth, which I made along with you. It eats grass as cattle do. 16 Look at the strength in its back muscles, the power in its stomach muscles. 17 It makes its tail stiff like a cedar. The ligaments of its thighs are intertwined. 18 Its bones are bronze tubes. They are like iron bars. 19 Behemoth is the first of God's conquests. Its maker approaches it with his sword. 20 The hills bring it food, and all the wild animals play there. 21 It lies down under the lotus plants in a hiding place among reeds and swamps. 22 Lotus plants provide it with cover. Poplars by the stream surround it. 23 Though the river flows powerfully against it, it's not alarmed. It's confident [even] when the Jordan rushes against its mouth. 24 Can anyone blind its eyes or pierce its nose with snares?

Chapter 41
1 "Can you pull Leviathan out [of the water] with a fishhook or tie its tongue down with a rope? 2 Can you put a ring through its nose or pierce its jaw with a hook? 3 Will it plead with you for mercy or speak tenderly to you? 4 Will it make an agreement with you so that you can take it as your permanent slave? 5 Can you play with it like a bird or keep it on a leash for your girls? 6 Will traders bargain over it and divide it among the merchants? 7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons or its head with fishing spears? 8 Lay your hand on it. Think of the struggle! Don't do it again! 9 Certainly, any hope [of defeating it] is a false hope. Doesn't the sight of it overwhelm you? 10 No one is brave enough to provoke Leviathan. Then who can stand in front of me?

11 Who can confront me that I should repay him? Everything under heaven belongs to me! 12 "I will not be silent about Leviathan's limbs, its strength, or its graceful form. 13 Who can skin its hide? Who can approach it with a harness? 14 Who can open its closed mouth? Its teeth are surrounded by terror. 15 Its back has rows of scales that are tightly sealed. 16 One is so close to the other that there is no space between them. 17 Each is joined to the other. They are locked together and inseparable. 18 When Leviathan sneezes, it gives out a flash of light. Its eyes are like the first rays of the dawn. 19 Flames shoot from its mouth. Sparks of fire fly from it. 20 Smoke comes from its nostrils like a boiling pot heated over brushwood. 21 Its breath sets coals on fire, and a flame pours from its mouth. 22 Strength resides in its neck, and power dances in front of it. 23 The folds of its flesh stick to each other. They are solid and cannot be moved. 24 Its chest is solid like a rock, solid like a millstone. 25 "The mighty are afraid when Leviathan rises. Broken down, they draw back. 26 A sword may strike it but not pierce it. Neither will a spear, lance, or dart. 27 It considers iron to be like straw and bronze to be like rotten wood. 28 An arrow won't make it run away. Stones from a sling turn to dust against it. 29 It considers clubs to be like stubble, and it laughs at a rattling javelin. 30 Its underside is like sharp pieces of broken pottery. It stretches out like a threshing sledge on the mud. 31 It makes the deep sea boil like a pot. It stirs up the ocean like a boiling kettle. 32 It leaves a shining path behind it so that the sea appears to have silvery hair. 33 Nothing on land can compare to it. It was made fearless. 34 It looks down on all high things. It is king of everyone who is arrogant."

Chapter 42
1 Then Job answered the LORD, 2 "I know that you can do everything and that your plans are unstoppable. 3 "[You said,] 'Who is this that belittles my advice without having any knowledge [about it]?' Yes, I have stated things I didn't understand, things too mysterious for me to know. 4 "[You said,] 'Listen now, and I will speak. I will ask you, and you will teach me.' 5 I had heard about you with my own ears, but now I have seen you with my own eyes. 6 That is why I take back what I said, and I sit in dust and ashes to show that I am sorry."

7 After the LORD had said those things to Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz from Teman, "I'm very angry with you and your two friends because you didn't speak what is right about me as my servant Job has done. 8 So take seven young bulls and seven rams. Go to my servant Job, and make a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you. Then I will accept his prayer not to treat you as godless fools. After all, you didn't speak what is right about me as my servant Job has done." 9 Then Eliphaz of Teman, Bildad of Shuah, and Zophar of Naama went and did what the LORD had told them to do. And the LORD accepted Job's prayer.

10 After Job prayed for his friends, the LORD restored Job's prosperity and gave him twice as much [as he had before]. 11 Then all his brothers and sisters and everyone who had previously known him came to him. They ate with him at his house, sympathized with him, and comforted him for all the evil the LORD had brought to him. Each one gave him some money and a gold ring. 12 The LORD blessed the latter years of Job's life more than the earlier years. He had 14,000 sheep and goats, 6,000 camels, 2,000 oxen, and 1,000 donkeys. 13 He also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 He named the first [daughter] Jemimah, the second Cassia, and the third Keren Happuch. 15 Nowhere in the whole country could be found women who were as beautiful as Job's daughters. Their father gave them and their brothers an inheritance. 16 Job lived 140 years after this. He saw his children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren. 17 Then at a very old age, Job died.

cliffs...
 

Stark

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At last, Job is finally given his desire to have an audience with God.
It is not what he expected. Speaking from a whirlwind, the Lord
charges Job with darkening counsel by words without knowledge. A
challenge is then made for Job to answer questions posed to him. A
series of questions follow in rapid succession regarding the creation
and nature that certainly contrast God's great power and wisdom with
Job's limited ability and understanding. God ends His first discourse
then with a repeated challenge for the one (i.e., Job) who contends
with the Almighty and who rebukes God to answer these questions.
Overwhelmed, Job admits his unworthiness and inability to answer. He
admits he has spoken before, but will do so no more (38:1-40:5).

The Lord is not through with Job, however. A second discourse begins
with another challenge for Job to answer God's questions. Job is asked
whether he truly thinks he can annul God's judgment, or condemn Him so
that he can be justified (cf. Elihu's charges, 32:2; 33:8-13). If Job
can thunder with a voice like God's, adorn himself with majesty,
splendor, glory and beauty, bring the proud down low, then God would
confess that Job could save himself. To once more illustrate the power
and wisdom of God, Job is asked to consider two great creatures, the
behemoth and Leviathan. If man is fearful before them, how then could
one stand against God (40:6-41:34)?

Job's final response is to humbly acknowledge God's ability to do
everything, and that no purpose of His can be withheld from Him. He
also confesses that he has spoken of things he did not understand, and
beyond his ability to comprehend. Having now heard and seen God, Job
abhors himself and repents (42:1-6).

With Job admitting he had spoken of things he did not understand and
having repented, the Lord now addresses Eliphaz as the representative
of Job's three friends. They angered the Lord by saying things that
were not right about God. They are therefore instructed to offer seven
bulls and seven rams, with Job praying in their behalf (42:7-9).

When Job has prayed for his friends, the Lord begins to restore his
losses. Job is comforted by his family and friends for the adversity
the Lord has brought upon him. The Lord then blesses Job by giving him
twice the number of livestock he had in the beginning. He is also
blessed with seven sons and three daughters, the latter being named and
described as the most beautiful in the land, even receiving an
inheritance along with their brothers. The book of Job closes with a
mention of how Job lived another 140 years, seeing his descendants to
the fourth generation before finally dying (42:10-17).

Conclusion... God's ways are not man's ways.
 

Malak

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Note: Job is the oldest book in the bible, dating 2000 years before Christ's birth.
 

Stark

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Originally posted by: malak
Note: Job is the oldest book in the bible, dating 2000 years before Christ's birth.

which is pretty amazing, when you consider that it contains a ton about God, Hell, sea monsters, and the debate over what mankind should make of evil in the world.

Now we go back into Genesis. One of the reasons Job was put before this point is because at no time does Job, God, or any of the characters in the story ever refer to the next figure introduced in the Bible. Since Abraham is such a cornerstone to everything that comes after him, logic implies that Job must have come sometime before this point.

So far, we've covered:

Creation
Adam and Eve
Cain and Abel
Nephalim
Noah's Ark
Tower of Babel
Job

Today's reading:
Genesis 12
1 The LORD said to Abram, "Leave your land, your relatives, and your father's home. Go to the land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation, I will bless you. I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you, I will curse. Through you every family on earth will be blessed."

4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him,
and Lot went with him. Abram was 75 years old when he left Haran. 5 Abram set out for Canaan. He took along his wife Sarai, his nephew Lot, and all the possessions they had accumulated and the servants they had acquired in Haran.

6 They arrived in Canaan, and Abram traveled through the land to the oak tree belonging to Moreh at Shechem. At that time the Canaanites were in the land. 7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "I'm going to give this land to your descendants." So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him. 8 He moved on to the hills east of Bethel, and he put up his tent--with Bethel on the west and Ai on the east. He also built an altar to the LORD there and worshiped the LORD. 9 Abram kept moving toward the Negev.

10 There was a famine in the land. Abram went to Egypt to stay awhile because the famine was severe. 11 When he was about to enter Egypt, Abram said to his wife Sarai, "I know that you're a beautiful woman. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they'll say, 'This is his wife!' Then they'll kill me but let you live. 13 Please say that you're my sister. Then everything will be alright for me, and because of you I will live."

14 When Abram arrived in Egypt, the Egyptians saw how very beautiful his wife was. 15 When Pharaoh's officials saw her, they raved about her to Pharaoh, so Sarai was taken to Pharaoh's palace. 16 Everything went well for Abram because of her, and he was given sheep, cattle, donkeys, male and female slaves, and camels. 17 However, the LORD struck Pharaoh and his household with terrible plagues because of Sarai, Abram's wife. 18 Then Pharaoh called for Abram. "What have you done to me?" he asked. "Why didn't you tell me that she's your wife? 19 Why did you say, 'She's my sister' and allow me to take her for my wife? Here's your wife! Take her and go!" 20 Pharaoh gave his men orders concerning Abram. They sent Abram away with his wife and everything that he had.

Chapter 13
1 Abram left Egypt with his wife and everything he had and went to the Negev. Lot was with him. 2 Abram was very rich because he had livestock, silver, and gold. 3 He traveled from place to place. He went from the Negev as far as Bethel, to the area between Bethel and Ai where his tent had been originally, 4 where he had first made an altar. There Abram worshiped the LORD.

5 Lot, who had been traveling with Abram, also had his own sheep, cattle, and tents. 6 There wasn't enough pastureland for both of them. They had so many possessions that they were unable to remain together. 7 Quarrels broke out between Abram's herders and Lot's herders. (Canaanites and Perizzites were also living in that area.) 8 Abram said to Lot, "Please, let's not have any more quarrels between us or between our herders. After all, we're relatives. 9 Isn't all this land yours also? Let's separate. If you go to the left, I'll go to the right, and if you go to the right, I'll go to the left."

10 Then Lot looked in the direction of Zoar as far as he could see. He saw that the whole Jordan Plain was well-watered like the LORD's garden or like Egypt. (This was before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah.) 11 Lot chose the whole Jordan Plain for himself. He moved toward the east. They each went their own way. 12 Abram lived in Canaan, while Lot lived among the cities of the plain, moving his tents as far as Sodom. 13 (The people who lived in Sodom were very wicked. They committed terrible sins against the LORD.)

14 After Lot left, the LORD said to Abram, "Look north, south, east, and west of where you are. 15 I will give all the land you see to you and to your descendants for an indefinite period of time. 16 I will also give you as many descendants as the dust of the earth. If anyone could count the dust of the earth, then he could also count your descendants. 17 Go! Walk back and forth across the entire land because I will give it to you." 18 So Abram moved his tents and went to live by the oak trees belonging to Mamre at Hebron. There he built an altar for the LORD.

Chapter 14
1 At that time [four kings]--King Amraphel of Shinar, King Arioch of Ellasar, King Chedorlaomer of Elam, and King Tidal of Goiim-- 2 went to war against [five kings]--King Bera of Sodom, King Birsha of Gomorrah, King Shinab of Admah, King Shemeber of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar). 3 The five kings joined forces and met in the valley of Siddim (that is, the Dead Sea). 4 For 12 years they had been subject to Chedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth year they rebelled. 5 In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and his allies came and defeated the Rephaim at Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzim at Ham, the Emim at Shaveh Kiriathaim, 6 and the Horites in the hill country of Seir, going as far as El Paran on the edge of the desert. 7 On their way back, they came to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites and also the Amorites who were living at Hazazon Tamar. 8 Then the kings of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim, and Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and prepared for battle in the valley of Siddim. 9 They fought against King Chedorlaomer of Elam, King Tidal of Goiim, King Amraphel of Shinar, and King Arioch of Ellasar--four kings against five. 10 The valley of Siddim was full of tar pits. As the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, they fell because of the tar pits, but the other kings fled to the hills. 11 So the four kings took all the possessions of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as all their food, and left. 12 They also took Abram's nephew Lot and his possessions since he was living in Sodom.

13 Then a soldier who had escaped came and told Abram the Hebrew what had happened. He was living next to the oak trees belonging to Mamre the Amorite, a brother of Eshcol and Aner. (These men were Abram's allies.) 14 When Abram heard that his nephew had been captured, he armed his 318 trained men, born in his own household, and pursued the four kings all the way to Dan. 15 He split up his men to attack them at night. He defeated them, pursuing them all the way to Hobah, which is north of Damascus. 16 He brought back everything they had, including women and soldiers. He also brought back his relative Lot and his possessions.

17 After Abram came back from defeating Chedorlaomer and his allies, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Shaveh Valley (that is, the King's Valley). 18 Then King Melchizedek of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was a priest of God Most High. 19 He blessed Abram, and said, "Blessed is Abram by God Most High, maker of heaven and earth. 20 Blessed is God Most High, who has handed your enemies over to you." Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the people, and keep everything else for yourself." 22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I now raise my hand and solemnly swear to the LORD God Most High, maker of heaven and earth, 23 that I won't take a thread or a sandal strap. I won't take anything that is yours so that you will never be able to say, 'I made Abram rich.' 24 I won't take one single thing except what my men have eaten. But let my allies Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre take their share."
 

Stark

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From Walking the Bible:

Considering his importance, Abraham seems to appear out of nowhere in the Bible...

According to Genesis 11, Abram, which means "the father is exalted" (he would later change it to Abraham, "father of a multitude"), was born in Ur of the Chaldeans where he took a wife, Sarai, before leaving for Canaan. The term Chaldeans is believed to refer to a later settlement, around 1100 B.C.E., and was probably added to the story when it was written down. The term Ur, by contrast has tantalizing ancient parallels and suggests biblical storytellers wanted their bloodlines placed deeply in Mesopotamia. The city of Ur was the capital of Sumer and one of the grandest cities of antiquity. Built around a stepped temple, or ziggurat, believed to have inspired the Tower of Babel, the city squeezed two hundred thousand citizens into labyrinthine quarters...

He likely would have lived outside of Ur, but moved during a period of drought, tension, or economic change. He and his clan would have gone to another city, perhaps stayed five or ten years, then moved again, most likely in a northwesterly direction, until they arrived in Harran, a well-known ancient crossroads.

This type of migration happened throughout the third millennium B.C.E., except for a period of economic collapse around 2000 B.C.E. According to scholars, Abraham was likely born near the end of that downturn, around 1900 B.C.E. To be sure, no evidence exists that Abraham--or any other central character in the Five Books--lived during this period. By contrast, much evidence suggests that Abraham is a compendium--a crystallization, to use Avner's word--of many oral traditions. But one thing is clear: The story is uncannily realistic to the history of the area. As Avner said, "it could be true."

After Abraham arrives in Harran, God--unexpected and unannounced--suddenly starts speaking to him, saying "Go forth from your native land and from your father's house, to the land that I will show you." It's one of the most famous passages in the Bible... "I will make of you a great nation," God says, "and I will bless you; I will make your name great."

"Why are those words so famous?" I asked.

"Because they're the beginning of everything," Avner said. "Of monotheism, of creating the Jewish people. Leaving this place is leaving behind the old faith, the old pattern of life, the fertility--for a new start."

"So why did he do it?"

"The Bible doesn't say. As far as the text is concerned, God says to do it, so Abraham goes. That's it. But Jewish tradition says that Abraham was the first person to recognize that this was the one God."

"But he had never heard God before. He didn't know who or what God was. He didn't see God. And suddenly, this voice says 'Go,' and he goes."

"The concept in the Bible is that the voice was such a powerful thing that Abraham had no doubts. He had faith."

"So what would have been the biggest change from the world he left to the world where he was going?"

"The biggest difference would be leaving an area that was the core of civilization to a place that was just emerging. It was not the heart of everything"

"But because he went, it became the heart of everything."

"And that's the point," Avner said. "Abraham begins a new cycle."
All through the Bible, he noted, the text follows a pattern of creation, followed by destruction, follwed by re-creation. First, God creates the world, for example; then, unhappy with how humans are behaving, he destroys it and begins again with Noah. Abraham marks the start of a new cycle, one that will continue throughout the Five Books of Moses. Even more important, God's decree to Abraham to leave Harran and go to the Promised Land, which overlapped much of Canaan, marks an end to the phase of Genesis that takes place in Mesopotamia. As a result, it also brings to a close the part of the cory that was dominated by Mesopotamian imagery, specifically water as the chief source of creation."
 

Stark

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Day 15: Genesis 16-19

Chapter 16

1 Sarai, Abram's wife, was not able to have children. She owned an Egyptian slave named Hagar. 2 So Sarai said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Why don't you sleep with my slave? Maybe I can build a family through her." Abram agreed with Sarai. 3 After Abram had lived in Canaan for ten years, Abram's wife Sarai took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.

4 He slept with Hagar, and she became pregnant. When Hagar realized that she was pregnant, she began to be disrespectful to Sarai, her owner. 5 So Sarai complained to Abram, "I'm being treated unfairly! And it's your fault! I know that I gave my slave to you, but now that she's pregnant, she's being disrespectful to me. May the LORD decide who is right--you or me." 6 Abram answered Sarai, "Here, she's your slave. Do what you like with her." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar so much that she ran away.

7 The Messenger of the LORD found her by a spring in the desert, the spring on the way to Shur. 8 He said, "Hagar, Sarai's slave, where have you come from, and where are you going?" She answered, "I'm running away from my owner Sarai." 9 The Messenger of the LORD said to her, "Go back to your owner, and place yourself under her authority."

10 The Messenger of the LORD also said to her, "I will give you many descendants. No one will be able to count them because there will be so many." 11 Then the Messenger of the LORD said to her, "You are pregnant, and you will give birth to a son. You will name him Ishmael [God Hears], because the LORD has heard your cry of distress. 12 He will be as free and wild as an untamed donkey. He will fight with everyone, and everyone will fight with him. He will have conflicts with all his relatives." 13 Hagar named the LORD, who had been speaking to her, "You Are the God Who Watches Over Me." She said, "This is the place where I watched [the one] who watches over me." 14 This is why the well is named Beer Lahai Roi [Well of the Living One Who Watches Over Me]. It is still there between Kadesh and Bered.

15 Hagar gave birth to Abram's son. Abram named him Ishmael. 16 Abram was 86 years old when Hagar gave birth to Ishmael.

Chapter 17

1 When Abram was 99 years old, the LORD appeared to him. He said to Abram, "I am God Almighty. Live in my presence with integrity. 2 I will give you my promise, and I will give you very many descendants." 3 Immediately, Abram bowed with his face touching the ground, and again God spoke to him,

4 "My promise is still with you. You will become the father of many nations. 5 So your name will no longer be Abram [Exalted Father], but Abraham [Father of Many] because I have made you a father of many nations. 6 I will give you many descendants. Many nations and kings will come from you.

7 I will make my promise to you and your descendants for generations to come as an everlasting promise. I will be your God and the God of your descendants. 8 I am also giving this land where you are living--all of Canaan--to you and your descendants as your permanent possession. And I will be your God." 9 God also said to Abraham, "You and your descendants in generations to come are to be faithful to my promise. 10 This is how you are to be faithful to my promise: Every male among you is to be circumcised. 11 All of you must be circumcised. That will be the sign of the promise from me to you. 12 For generations to come every male child who is eight days old must be circumcised, whether he is born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner who's not related to you. 13 Every male born in your household or bought with your money is to be circumcised without exception. So my promise will be a sign on your flesh, an everlasting promise. 14 Any uncircumcised male must be excluded from his people because he has rejected my promise."

15 God said to Abraham, "Don't call your wife by the name Sarai anymore. Instead, her name is Sarah [Princess]. 16 I will bless her, and I will also give you a son by her. I will bless her, and she will become [a mother of] nations, and kings will come from her." 17 Immediately, Abraham bowed with his face touching the ground. He laughed as he thought to himself, "Can a son be born to a hundred-year-old man? Can Sarah, a ninety-year-old woman, have a child?" 18 Then Abraham said to God, "Why not let Ishmael be my heir?" 19 God replied, "No! Your wife Sarah will give you a son, and you will name him Isaac [He Laughs]. I will make an everlasting promise to him and his descendants. 20 I have heard your request about Ishmael. Yes, I will bless him, make him fertile, and increase the number of his descendants. He will be the father of 12 princes, and I will make him a great nation. 21 But I will make my promise to Isaac. Sarah will give birth to him at this time next year." 22 When God finished speaking with Abraham, he left him.

23 So Abraham took his son Ishmael, everyone born in his household, and everyone bought with money--every male in his household--and circumcised them that day, as God had told him. 24 Abraham was 99 years old when he was circumcised. 25 His son Ishmael was 13 years old when he was circumcised. 26 That same day Abraham and his son Ishmael were circumcised. 27 All the men of his household, whether born in the household or bought with money from a foreigner, were circumcised with him.

Chapter 18

1 The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oak trees belonging to Mamre as he was sitting at the entrance of his tent during the hottest part of the day. 2 Abraham looked up, and suddenly he saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran to meet them, and he bowed with his face touching the ground. 3 "Please, sir," Abraham said, "stop by to visit me for a while. 4 Why don't we let someone bring a little water? After you wash your feet, you can stretch out and rest under the tree. 5 Let me bring some bread so that you can regain your strength. After that you can leave, since this is why you stopped by to visit me." They answered, "That's fine. Do as you say." 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to find Sarah. "Quick," he said, "get three measures of flour, knead it, and make bread." 7 Then Abraham ran to the herd and took one of his best calves. He gave it to his servant, who prepared it quickly. 8 Abraham took cheese and milk, as well as the meat, and set these in front of them. Then he stood by them under the tree as they ate.

9 They asked him, "Where is your wife Sarah?" He answered, "Over there, in the tent." 10 The LORD said, "I promise I'll come back to you next year at this time, and your wife Sarah will have a son." Sarah happened to be listening at the entrance of the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were old. Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 And so Sarah laughed to herself, thinking, "Now that I've become old, will I enjoy myself again? What's more, my husband is old!" 13 The LORD asked Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, 'Can I really have a child now that I'm old?' 14 Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will come back to you next year at this time, and Sarah will have a son." 15 Because she was afraid, Sarah denied that she had laughed. But the LORD said, "Yes, you did laugh."

16 Then the men got up to leave. As Abraham was walking with them to see them off, they looked toward Sodom. 17 The LORD said, "I shouldn't hide what I am going to do from Abraham. 18 After all, Abraham is going to become a great and mighty nation and through him all the nations of the earth will be blessed. 19 I have chosen him so that he will direct his children and his family after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just. In this way I, the LORD, will do what I have promised Abraham." 20 The LORD also said, "Sodom and Gomorrah have many complaints against them, and their sin is very serious. 21 I must go down and see whether these complaints are true. If not, I will know it." 22 From there the men turned and went on toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing in front of the LORD.

23 Abraham came closer and asked, "Are you really going to sweep away the innocent with the guilty? 24 What if there are 50 innocent people in the city? Are you really going to sweep them away? Won't you spare that place for the sake of the 50 innocent people who are in it? 25 It would be unthinkable for you to do such a thing, to treat the innocent and the guilty alike and to kill the innocent with the guilty. That would be unthinkable! Won't the judge of the whole earth do what is fair?" 26 The LORD said, "If I find 50 innocent people inside the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake." 27 Abraham asked, "Consider now, if I may be so bold as to ask you, although I'm [only] dust and ashes, 28 what if there are 45 innocent people? Will you destroy the whole city because of 5 fewer people?" The LORD answered, "I will not destroy it if I find 45 there." 29 Abraham asked him again, "What if 40 are found there?" He answered, "For the sake of the 40 I will not do it." 30 "Please don't be angry if I speak again," Abraham said. "What if 30 are found there?" He answered, "If I find 30 there, I will not do it." 31 "Look now, if I may be so bold as to ask you," Abraham said. "What if 20 are found there?" He answered, "I will not destroy it for the sake of the 20." 32 "Please don't be angry if I speak only one more time," Abraham said. "What if 10 are found there?" He answered, "I will not destroy it for the sake of the 10." 33 When the LORD finished speaking to Abraham, he left. Abraham returned home.
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
Cliffs...

Genesis 16

This is one of my favorite chapters in the entire Bible. This chapter is the Bible?s explanation of the origins of the Arabs and the Jews, what they?re ultimately fighting about, and why they may never get along.

The story starts out with Sarai frustrated about not being able to bear a child for Abram (despite God?s promise to make a great nation from him). So she suggests that Abram sleep with her younger, spry, fertile maid Hagar.

The next verse was one of the primary points that convinced me that the Bible, as far as describing the human experience on Earth, is true; Abram doesn?t object or abstain, he EAGERLY AGREES to the idea. Abraham was a horny guy like the rest of us!

The Bible says that ?He slept with Hagar,? but most people trying to conceive children would agree that it?s usually not that easy? who knows how many times he slept with her before she conceived? This may be part of the reason Sarai later gets a touch jealous of Hagar and her newfound ?disrespectful? attitude. So she complains to Abram, and he, again being a typical male, wants nothing to do with this catfight. He tells her to ?do whatever? she has to, just stop the whining!

So Hagar runs away to the desert where he gives her a special blessing. Note that to this point, God has never, ever given a woman any sort of blessing or promise? because of this Hagar is one of the most unique and important women in all of scripture. God (through a messenger) promises to ?give [her] many descendants. No one will be able to count them because there will be so many.? These descendants will start with the son in her womb, Ishmael.

The Messenger also gives a brief characterization of what kind of person Ishmael (and the rest of his descendants) will be: ?free and wild as an untamed donkey. He will fight with everyone, and everyone will fight with him. He will have conflicts with all his relatives.?

So who is this Ishmael guy? According to the three big western religions, he?s the father of the Arab people? and the link that Islam makes to Abraham and (more importantly) the promises God gave him. What promises? Remember back to chapter 13?
?Look north, south, east, and west of where you are. 15 I will give all the land you see to you and to your descendants for an indefinite period of time. 16 I will also give you as many descendants as the dust of the earth. If anyone could count the dust of the earth, then he could also count your descendants. 17 Go! Walk back and forth across the entire land because I will give it to you? [fast forward to Chapter 16] You will become the father of many nations? I will give you many descendants and kings will come from you. I will be your God and the God of your descendants. 8 I am also giving this land where you are living--all of Canaan--to you and your descendants as your permanent possession. And I will be your God.?

Boo-ya!

What amazes me is how few people who say they believe the Bible actually know all this stuff. According to the model laid out here, the stubborn, violent, unruly descendents of Ishmael (Arabs and later Muslims) are competing with the descendents of the younger son, Isaac (Jews) for the land of Canaan and the promise of Blessing from God. This is in the Bible, folks? from oral traditions thousands of years ago! You can?t make this stuff up!

Why are the Arabs such a powerful force in the world? A political scientist would probably say ?oil? but according to the Bible it?s because of the promise God made with Hagar. ?But? but? what the [heck] was God thinking? these people are terrorists!? Quick reality check? early Zionists protesting British occupation of Palestine were just as nuts as today?s radical Muslims (both sides are alarmingly serious about this land promise)? and as the story of Job teaches: God?s way is not Man?s way.

Finally, Sarah has a son Isaac (both Abe and Sarah think that the notion of her having a kid is hilarious, so they name the kid ?he laughs? because they keep cracking up when God brings it up).

Finally three mystery men (who they are depends on what tradition you?re coming from) show up, Abraham offers traditional Arab hospitality, they tell him they?re going to blow up Sodom and Gomorrah, so Abe starts to barters like a Jewish merchant (or maybe an Arab carpet salesman) to get the price of salvation down to just 10 righteous people in the entire city. Back in college, the Jewish Prof who taught OT made pointed this out? while most gentiles refer to it as getting ?Jewed,? tough bartering and shrewd business dealings have deep roots in Jewish culture that this story touches on.

The three guys then leave with a big can of whoop-ass for the Sodomites and Abe goes home.
 

slick230

Banned
Jan 31, 2003
2,776
0
0
DEDICATION
Ye wavering forms draw near again as ever
When ye long since moved past my clouded eyes.
To hold you fast, shall I this time endeavour?
Still does my heart that strange illusion prize?
Ye crowd on me! 'Tis well! Your might assever
While ye from mist and murk around me rise.
As in my youth my heart again is bounding,
Thrilled by the magic breath your train surrounding.
Ye bring with you glad days and happy faces.
Ah, many dear, dear shades arise with you;
Like some old tale that Time but half erases,
First Love draws near to me and Friendship too.
The pain returns, the sad lament retraces
Life's labyrinthine, erring course anew
And names the good souls who, by Fortune cheated
Of lovely hours, forth from my world have fleeted.
They do not hear the melodies I'm singing,
The souls to whom my earliest lays I sang;
Dispersed that throng who once to me were clinging,
The echo's died away that one time rang.
Now midst an unknown crowd my grief is ringing,
Their very praise but gives my heart a pang,
While those who once my song enjoyed and flattered,
If still they live, roam through the wide world scattered.
And I am seized with long-unwonted yearning
Toward yonder realm of spirits grave and still.
My plaintive song's uncertain tones are turning
To harps aeolian murmuring at will.
Awe binds me fast; tear upon tear falls burning,
My stern heart feels a gentle, tender thrill;
What I possess, as if far off I'm seeing,
And what has vanished, now comes into being.
PRELUDE ON THE STAGE
MANAGER. DRAMATIC POET. JESTER.
Manager. Ye two that have so often stood by me
In time of need and tribulation,
Come, say: what hope in any German nation
For what we undertake have ye?
I much desire to give the crowd a pleasure,
In chief, because they live and let us live.
The posts, the boards are up, and here at leisure
The crowd expects a feast in what we'll give.
They're sitting now with eyebrows raised,
Quite calmly there, would gladly be amazed.
I know how one can make all minds akin,
Yet so embarrassed I have never been.
In truth, accustomed to the best they're not,
But they have read a really awful lot.
How shall we plan that all be fresh and new
And with a meaning, yet attractive too?
For I do like to see them crowding, urging,
When toward our booth the stream sets in apace
And with its powerful, repeated surging
Pours through the strait and narrow gate of grace,
When still in broad daylight, ere it is four,
They fight and push their way up to the wicket
And as the famine-stricken at the baker's door
They nearly break their necks to get a ticket.
This miracle, upon such varied folk, the poet
Alone can work; today, my friend, oh, show it!
Poet. I beg you, of that motley crowd cease telling
At sight of whom the spirit takes to flight!
Enveil from me the billowing mass compelling
Us to its vortex with resistless might.
No, lead me to the tranquil, heavenly dwelling
Where only blooms for poets pure delight,
Where Love and Friendship give the heart their blessing,
With godlike hand creating and progressing.
Ah, all that from the bosom's depths sprang flowing,
All that from shy and stammering lips has passed,
Sometimes success and sometimes failure knowing,
To each wild moment's power a prey is cast.
Oft only after years, in credit growing,
Doth it appear in perfect form at last.
What gleams is born but for the moment's pages;
The true remains, unlost to after-ages.
Jester. Could I but hear no more of after-ages!
Suppose the thought of them my mind engages,
Who'd give the present world its fun?
That will it have and ought to have it too.
The presence of a gallant chap, revealed to you,
I think, is also worth while being shown.
Who pleasantly can just himself impart,
Is not embittered by the people's whim;
He likes to have a crowd surrounding him,
More certainly to stir and thrill each heart.
So do be good, show you can set the fashion.
Let Fantasy be heard with all her chorus:
Sense, Reason, Sentiment, and Passion;
Yet mark you well! bring Folly too before us!
Manager. But, more than all, do let enough occur!
Men come to look, to see they most prefer.
If, as they gaze, much is reeled off and spun,
So that the startled crowd gapes all it can,
A multitude you will at once have won;
You then will be a much-loved man.
You can compel the mass by mass alone;
Each in the end will seek out something as his own.
Bring much and you'll bring this or that to everyone
And each will leave contented when the play is done.
If you will give a piece, give it at once in pieces!
Ragout like this your fame increases.
Easy it is to stage, as easy to invent.
What use is it, a whole to fashion and present?
The Public still will pick it all to pieces.
Poet. You do not feel how bad such handiwork must be,
How little that becomes the artist true!
I see, neat gentlemanly botchery
Is now a sovereign rule with you.
Manager. Reproof like this leaves me quite unoffended!
A man who does his work, effectively intended,
Must stick to tools that are the best for it.
Reflect! You have a tender wood to split;
And those for whom you write, just see!
If this one's driven hither by ennui,
Another leaves a banquet sated with its vapours;
And- what the very worst will always be-
Many come fresh from reading magazines and papers.
Men haste distraught to us as to the masquerade,
And every step but winged by curiosity;
The ladies give a treat, all in their best arrayed,
And play their part without a fee.
Why do you dream in lofty poet-land?
Why does a full house make you gay?
Observe the patrons near at hand!
They are half cold, half coarse are they.
One, when the play is over, hopes a game of cards;
A wild night on a wench's breast another chooses.
Why then, with such an aim, poor silly bards,
Will you torment so much the gracious Muses?
Give only more and ever, ever more, I say.
Then from the goal you nevermore can stray.
Seek to bewilder men- that is my view.
But satisfy them? That is hard to do.-
What is attacking you? Pain or delight?
Poet. Go hence and seek yourself another slave!
What! Shall the poet take that highest right,
The Right of Man, that Right which Nature gave,
And wantonly for your sake trifle it away?
How doth he over every heart hold sway?
How doth he every element enslave?
Is it not the harmony that from his breast doth start,
Then winds the world in turn back in his heart?
When Nature forces lengths of thread unending
In careless whirling on the spindle round,
When all Life's inharmonic throngs unblending
In sullen, harsh confusion sound,
Who parts the changeless series of creation,
That each, enlivened, moves in rhythmic time?
Who summons each to join the general ordination,
In consecrated, noble harmonies to chime?
Who bids the storm with raging passion lower?
The sunset with a solemn meaning glow?
Who scatters Springtime's every lovely flower
Along the pathway where his love may go?
Who twines the verdant leaves, unmeaning, slighted,
Into a wreath of honour, meed of every field?
Who makes Olympus sure, the gods united?
That power of Man the Poet has revealed!
Jester. Then use these handsome powers as your aid
And carry on this poet trade
As one a love-adventure carries!
By chance one nears, one feels, one tarries!
And, bit by bit, one gets into a tangle.
Bliss grows, then comes a tiff, a wrangle;
One is enrapt, now one sees pain advance,
And ere one is aware, it is a real romance!
So let us also such a drama give!
Just seize upon the full life people live!
Each lives it though it's known to few,
And grasp it where you will, there's interest for you.
In motley pictures with a little clarity,
Much error and a spark of verity,
Thus can the best of drinks be brewed
To cheer and edify the multitude.
Youth's fairest bloom collects in expectation
Before your play and harks the revelation.
Then from your work each tender soul, intent,
Absorbs a melancholy nourishment.
Then now one thought and now another thought you start;
Each sees what he has carried in his heart.
As yet they are prepared for weeping and for laughter;
They still revere the flight, illusion they adore.
A mind once formed finds naught made right thereafter;
A growing mind will thank you evermore.
Poet. Then give me back the time of growing
When I myself was growing too,
When crowding songs, a fountain flowing,
Gushed forth unceasing, ever new;
When still the mists my world were veiling,
The bud its miracle bespoke;
When I the thousand blossoms broke,
Profusely through the valleys trailing.
Naught, yet enough had I when but a youth,
Joy in illusion, yearning toward the truth.
Give impulse its unfettered dower,
The bliss so deep 'tis full of pain,
The strength of hate, Love's mighty power,
Oh, give me back my youth again!
Jester. Youth, my good friend, you need most in the fight
When enemies come on, hard pressing,
When, clinging to your necks so tight,
The dearest maidens hang caressing,
When, from afar, a wreath entrances,
Luring to hard-won goal the runner's might,
When, after madly whirling dances,
A man carousing drinks away the night.
But on the lyre's familiar strings
To play with grace and spirit ever
And sweep with lovely wanderings
Toward goals you choose for your endeavour,
That is your duty, aged sirs,
And we revere you for it no less dearly.
Age makes not childish, as one oft avers;
It finds us still true children merely.
Manager. Words have been interchanged enough,
Let me at last see action too.
While compliments you're turning- idle stuff!
Some useful thing might come to view.
Why talk of waiting for the mood?
No one who dallies ever will it see.
If you pretend you're poets- good!
Command then, poets, poetry!
What we're in need of, that full well you know,
We want to sip strong drink, so go
And start the brew without delay!
Never is done tomorrow what is not done today
And one should let no day slip by.
With resolution seize the possible straightway
By forelock and with quick, courageous trust;
Then holding fast you will not let it further fly
And you will labour on because you must.
Upon our German stage, you are aware,
Each tries out what he wishes to display,
So in your work for me today
Scenes, mechanism you are not to spare.
Use both the lights of heaven, great and small;
The stars above are yours to squander;
Nor water, fire, nor rocky wall,
Nor beasts nor birds are lacking yonder.
Thus in our narrow house of boards preside
And on through all Creation's circle stride;
And wander on, with speed considered well,
From Heaven, through the world, to Hell!
PROLOGUE IN HEAVEN
The LORD. The HEAVENLY HOSTS.
Afterwards MEPHISTOPHELES.
The THREE ARCHANGELS come forward.
Raphael. The Sun intones, in ancient tourney
With brother-spheres, a rival song,
Fulfilling its predestined journey,
With march of thunder moves along.
Its aspect gives the angels power,
Though none can ever solve its ways;
The lofty works beyond us tower,
Sublime as on the first of days.
Gabriel. And swift beyond where knowledge ranges,
Earth's splendour whirls in circling flight;
A paradise of brightness changes
To awful shuddering depths of night.
The sea foams up, widespread and surging
Against the rocks' deep-sunken base,
And rock and sea sweep onward, merging
In rushing spheres' eternal race.
Michael. And rival tempests roar and shatter,
From sea to land, from land to sea,
And, raging, form a circling fetter
Of deep, effective energy.
There flames destruction, flashing, searing,
Before the crashing thunder's way;
Yet, Lord, Thy angels are revering
The gentle progress of Thy day.
The Three. Its aspect gives the angels power,
Since none can solve Thee nor Thy ways;
And all Thy works beyond us tower,
Sublime as on the first of days.
Mephistopheles. Since you, O Lord, once more draw near
And ask how all is getting on, and you
Were ever well content to see me here,
You see me also midst your retinue.
Forgive, fine speeches I can never make,
Though all the circle look on me with scorn;
Pathos from me would make your sides with laughter shake,
Had you not laughter long ago forsworn.
Of suns and worlds I've naught to say worth mention.
How men torment them claims my whole attention.
Earth's little god retains his same old stamp and ways
And is as singular as on the first of days.
A little better would he live, poor wight,
Had you not given him that gleam of heavenly light.
He calls it Reason, only to pollute
Its use by being brutaler than any brute.
It seems to me, if you'll allow, Your Grace,
He's like a grasshopper, that long-legged race
That's made to fly and flying spring
And in the grass to sing the same old thing.
If in the grass he always were reposing!
But in each filthy heap he keeps on nosing.
The Lord. You've nothing more to say to me?
You come but to complain unendingly?
Is never aught right to your mind?
Mephistopheles. No, Lord! All is still downright bad, I find.
Man in his wretched days makes me lament him;
I am myself reluctant to torment him.
The Lord. Do you know Faust?
Mephistopheles. The Doctor?
The Lord. Yes, my servant!
Mephistopheles. He!
Forsooth, he serves you most peculiarly.
Unearthly are the fool's drink and his food;
The ferment drives him forth afar.
Though half aware of his insensate mood,
He asks of heaven every fairest star
And of the earth each highest zest,
And all things near and all things far
Can not appease his deeply troubled breast.
The Lord. Although he serves me now confusedly,
I soon shall lead him forth where all is clear.
The gardener knows, when verdant grows the tree,
That bloom and fruit will deck the coming year.
Mephistopheles. What will you wager? Him you yet shall lose,
If you will give me your permission
To lead him gently on the path I choose.
The Lord. As long as on the earth he shall survive,
So long you'll meet no prohibition.
Man errs as long as he doth strive.
Mephistopheles. My thanks for that, for with the dead I've never
got
Myself entangled of my own volition.
I like full, fresh cheeks best of all the lot.
I'm not at home when corpses seek my house;
I feel about it as a cat does with a mouse.
The Lord. 'Tis well! So be it granted you today!
Divert this spirit from its primal source
And if you can lay hold on him, you may
Conduct him downward on your course,
And stand abashed when you are forced to say:
A good man, though his striving be obscure,
Remains aware that there is one right way.
Mephistopheles. All right! But long it won't endure!
I have no fear about my bet, be sure!
When I attain my aim, do not protest,
But let me triumph with a swelling breast.
Dust shall he eat, and that with zest,
As did the famous snake, my near relation.
The Lord. In that too you may play your part quite free;
Your kind I never did detest.
Of all the spirits of negation
The wag weighs least of all on me.
Mankind's activity can languish all too easily,
A man soon loves unhampered rest;
Hence, gladly I give him a comrade such as you,
Who stirs and works and must, as devil, do.
But ye, real sons of God, lift up your voice,
In living, profuse beauty to rejoice!
May that which grows, that lives and works forever,
Engird you with Love's gracious bonds, and aught
That ever may appear, to float and waver,
Make steadfast in enduring thought!
Heaven closes, the ARCHANGELS disperse.
Mephistopheles [alone]. I like to see the Old Man not infrequently,
And I forbear to break with Him or be uncivil;
It's very pretty in so great a Lord as He
To talk so like a man even with the Devil.

NIGHT
 

Stark

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2000
7,735
0
0
ok, i'll do the cliffs notes...

Faust Part 1 (original title: Faust - Der Tragödie erster Teil) is a tragic play by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe. The play is a closet drama, meaning that it is meant to be read rather than performed. It is Goethe's most famous work.

Summary

Faust is based on an actual historical figure of the same name. The play begins with the prologue in heaven. Mephisto dares God that he will lead Faust, a loyal servant to God, astray, but God trusts Faust to follow his path even though it is sometimes obscure. This is similar to the story of Job in the Bible. When we meet Faust, he quarrels with his fate. He knows everything there is to know (he's studied all his life), but still does not feel satisfied. He wants to kill himself, but is stopped by churchbells. Outside his house, Faust encounters a large black dog (called "Pudel" in the original German), who turns into Mephistopheles and says about himself: "(Ich bin) Ein Teil von jener Kraft, Die stets das Böse will und stets das Gute schafft." (I am part of the power that always wants the ill and always produces the good.)

Faust signs a pact with the devil, saying that the devil may have his soul on the day he rests. Mephisto in turn will be, until then, his slave. He tries to corrupt Faust by showing him the amenities of human life, which he has never known, but of course does not succeed. Faust wants to learn about love, so the devilish cad introduces the good doctor to a local lovely by the name of Gretchen. Faust first woos her, then gets bored with her, leaving her pregnant and killing her brother. Mephisto tries to distract him by engaging into "Walpurgis Night", a giant orgy of the evil powers, but Faust cannot forget her (he sees her image before him, just before he is about to have sex with another woman). In the meantime, Gretchen gives birth to a child and kills it. She is locked into prison and sentenced to death. Faust tries to free her, but she does not want to go with him. Her soul is improbably "saved" at the end of the play.

In the entire book, Faust stays restless, so you will have to read the second part in order to find out whether Mephisto succeeds or not. While the first part represents the "small world" and takes place in the commoners' millieu, Faust Part 2 takes place in the "wide world" of politics and industrialism. Also, the first part criticizes society, while the second part criticizes politics and the greed of the early industrialists. This play is composed of fragments, written by Goethe over a long period of time. It remains, with the second part, one of the most important works of German literature.

Effects not intended by the author

Because this play is such an important part of German culture, it has also been abused in the past by the Prussians, the Nazis, and the East German regime to justify their ideologies in a very quirky way.

Abridged version: Faust is like Job, but ends up sellig his soul to the Devil. In Pt 2 his soul is saved before he dies.
 

GoingUp

Lifer
Jul 31, 2002
16,720
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There is not enough love and goodness in the world for us to be permitted to give any of it away to imaginary things.

-Nietzsche
 

Stark

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Jun 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: Gobadgrs
There is not enough love and goodness in the world for us to be permitted to give any of it away to imaginary things.

-Nietzsche

Thus Spake Zarathustra

According to Dr. Norman Ravitch, professor of history at U.C. Riverside, "What Spengler, Toynbee, and Nietzsche can teach us is how Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, despite superficial differences, were all forged and/or altered by a religious revolution in ancient Iran associated with the name Zoroaster or Zarathustra. The central notions of dualism between Good and Evil, Salvation through an Expected Messiah, and the Final Battle between St Michael and Satan animate these world religions and their devotees. Pragmatism, reason, and common sense have little place in these primitive Semitic world views. All conflict is interpreted as part of a cosmic struggle between Good and Evil and there is no room for compromise or tolerance."

on the other hand, it may be noted that the guy who said "Gott ist tot!" (God is dead), lost it after watching a man beat a horse in the street and spent the last 10 years of his life completely insane.
 

Stark

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Jun 16, 2000
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Genesis 19

1 The two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gateway. When Lot saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed with his face touching the ground. 2 He said, "Please, gentlemen, why don't you come to my home and spend the night? [You can] wash your feet there. Then early tomorrow morning you can continue your journey." "No," they answered, "we'd rather spend the night in the city square." 3 But he insisted so strongly that they came with him and went into his home. He prepared a special dinner for them, baked some unleavened bread, and they ate.

4 Before they had gone to bed, all the young and old male citizens of Sodom surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to [stay with] you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." 6 Then Lot went outside and shut the door behind him. 7 "Please, my friends, don't be so wicked," he said. 8 "Look, I have two daughters who have never had sex. Why don't you let me bring them out to you? Do whatever you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, since I'm responsible for them." 9 But the men yelled, "Get out of the way! This man came here to stay awhile. Now he wants to be our judge! We're going to treat you worse than those men." They pushed hard against Lot and lunged forward to break down the door. 10 The men [inside] reached out, pulled Lot into the house with them, and shut the door. 11 Then they struck all the men who were in the doorway of the house, young and old alike, with blindness so that they gave up trying to find the door.

12 Then the men asked Lot, "Do you have anyone else here--any in-laws, sons, daughters, or any other relatives in the city? Get them out of here 13 because we're going to destroy this place. The complaints to the LORD against its people are so loud that the LORD has sent us to destroy it." 14 So Lot went out and spoke to the men engaged to his daughters. He said, "Hurry! Get out of this place, because the LORD is going to destroy the city." But they thought he was joking.

15 As soon as it was dawn, the angels urged Lot by saying, "Quick! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you'll be swept away when the city is punished." 16 When he hesitated, the men grabbed him, his wife, and his two daughters by their hands, because the LORD wanted to spare Lot. They brought them safely outside the city. 17 As soon as they were outside, one [of the angels] said, "Run for your lives! Don't look behind you, and don't stop on the plain. Run for the hills, or you'll be swept away!" 18 Lot answered, "Oh no! 19 Even though you've been so good to me and though you've been very kind to me by saving my life, I can't run as far as the hills. This disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, there's a city near enough to flee to, and it's small. Why don't you let me run there? Isn't it small? Then my life will be saved." 21 The angel said to him, "Alright, I will grant you this request too. I will not destroy the city you're talking about. 22 Run there quickly, because I can't do anything until you get there." (The city is named Zoar [Small].) 23 The sun had just risen over the land as Lot came to Zoar.

24 Then the LORD made burning sulfur and fire rain out of heaven on Sodom and Gomorrah. 25 He destroyed those cities, the whole plain, all who lived in the cities, and whatever grew on the ground.

26 Lot's wife looked back and turned into a column of salt.

27 Early the next morning Abraham came to the place where he had stood in front of the LORD. 28 When he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah and all the land in the plain, he saw smoke rising from the land like the thick smoke of a furnace. 29 When God destroyed the cities on the plain, he remembered Abraham. Lot was allowed to escape from the destruction that came to the cities where he was living.

30 Lot left Zoar because he was afraid to stay there. He and his two daughters settled in the mountains where they lived in a cave. 31 The older daughter said to the younger one, "Our father is old. No men are here. We can't get married as other people do. 32 Let's give our father wine to drink. Then we'll go to bed with him so that we'll be able to preserve our family line through our father." 33 That night they gave their father wine to drink. Then the older one went to bed with her father. He didn't know when she came to bed or when she got up. 34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger one, "I did it! Last night I went to bed with my father. Let's give him wine to drink again tonight. Then you go to bed with him so that we'll be able to preserve our family line through our father." 35 That night they gave their father wine to drink again. Then the younger one went to bed with him. He didn't know when she came to bed or when she got up. 36 So Lot's two daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older one gave birth to a son and named him Moab. He is the ancestor of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also gave birth to a son and named him Ben Ammi. He is the ancestor of the Ammonites of today.
 

LtPage1

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Jan 15, 2004
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fine by me, but i wont read it. but hey, if people keep it alive and arent P&N a-holes about it, then by all means.