Beware OEM PCs with "24GB memory" (8GB RAM + 16GB Optane)

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
This isnt going to end well for Intel....

I guess as a reader of tech, I just don't understand the sudden outrage now that some systems are shipping with this. When this product was first announced and reviewed over a year ago, it was clear where this new tech was headed. This was developed to improve HDD based pre-bulit PCs (which is by far the largest share of sold systems).

Maybe some are surprised to see some retailers like Staples call it memory, but from the example shown here, both Intel and HP are crystal clear on what a user gets if they buy this system. If Joe Smo looks on Staples and buys it based on them saying it has 24 GB of memory, it's on them and they take their case up with the retailer.

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-optane-3d-xpoint-memory,5032.html

The new 3D XPoint media just happens to be the first new memory to enter mass production in 25 years, and it is very, very fast.
As tested today with mainstream settings, Optane Memory performed as advertised. We observed increased performance with both a hard disk drive and an entry-level NVMe SSD. The value proposition for a hard drive paired with Optane Memory is undeniable. The combination is very powerful, and for many users, a better solution than a larger SSD.

Has anything changed since April 2017?
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,552
10,171
126
I guess as a reader of tech, I just don't understand the sudden outrage now that some systems are shipping with this. When this product was first announced and reviewed over a year ago, it was clear where this new tech was headed. This was developed to improve HDD based pre-bulit PCs (which is by far the largest share of sold systems).
I have no issues with Optane Memory, as far as the technology goes. It seems useful.

Has anything changed since April 2017?
Yes, retailers are advertising OEM PCs in deceiving ways, conflating "RAM" with "Storage" and "Storage Cache". Optane is NOT a substitute for RAM. (Well, not until 3DXpoint DIMMs start shipping to server vendors, but again, not yet a consumer technology.) As packaged, the current Optane Memory cache SSDs, can only optimize HDD or SSD accesses, they don't act like RAM, and AFAIK, are not byte-addressable like DRAM is.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,553
248
106
I don't see how you could honestly say this RAM. The system doesn't use it as RAM (seems like a sort of cache drive) and it does't use it as drive space. So it shoul be listed separately, if advertisers wanted to be honest (for a change).
 

nosirrahx

Senior member
Mar 24, 2018
304
75
101
I guess as a reader of tech, I just don't understand the sudden outrage now that some systems are shipping with this.

I have spent more on Optane than the rest of this site combined, this has absolutely nothing to do with the product.

The issue is with changing the definition of terms that have been static since their inception while being well aware that the consumers duped by this will not understand what happened.

"You will buy and use Optane even if you do not have any idea that you just did."

What do you think will happen when one of these systems needs to be reinstalled at a shop? Do you think the shop is going to turn Optane back on?

NOPE

The user will be getting a slow as hell system back and Optane will either be removed or dormant.

Do you know what happens with you try to reuse Opane? The procedure is NOT just format and reinstall and if the system becomes unbootable its kind of a pain disabling Optane is BIOS, potentially impossible if the BIOS is heavily locked down by the OEM.

The Intel Optane support forum is full of people having all kinds of issues enabling Optane, often because they are trying to change their setup.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,553
248
106
The Intel Optane support forum is full of people having all kinds of issues enabling Optane, often because they are trying to change their setup.
Can you share some links? Would love to see what other people are saying.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,553
248
106
Possibly because I am not a member, or just based on the link you provided, but I looked at over a dozen threads for Octane and of the ones people actually replied to Intel in, they were using a board that did not yet have full support for Octane, or they were not following the installation settings correctly, or they were trying a configuration that was not supported (at least not yet). Some were actually resolved by following Intel's instructions :)

I think it's a learning process, but it's still not RAM. I am sure it will improve (in marketing and installation process) as time goes on.
 

nosirrahx

Senior member
Mar 24, 2018
304
75
101
I think it's a learning process, but it's still not RAM. I am sure it will improve (in marketing and installation process) as time goes on.

What's killing them is the lack of universal support and lack of plug and play. Trying to pull a proprietary add on in the world of universal everything was a mistake.

Optane should have been paired with NAND as a replacement for DRAM cache on SSDs. Intel would have had a killer product had they done this.
 

Insert_Nickname

Diamond Member
May 6, 2012
4,971
1,693
136
The Intel Optane support forum is full of people having all kinds of issues enabling Optane, often because they are trying to change their setup.

HDD caching in any shape or form on a consumer system is just asking for trouble. Particularly the proprietary kind. I'm surprised Intel didn't learn from the last time they tried (RST, anyone?).

I've had multiple bad experiences with such over the year. As always with F&F-segment computers, the KISS principle applies.

However, if you know what you're doing there are plenty of rewards.
 

nosirrahx

Senior member
Mar 24, 2018
304
75
101
However, if you know what you're doing there are plenty of rewards.

With the way Optane cache is implemented you get access to the cache so early in the boot process that you really do feel an incredibly difference.

At some point I will do a 800P Optane cache VS 800P Primo cache comparison. When it comes to boot times in particular the Optane cache will likely crush Primo.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Insert_Nickname

cbn

Lifer
Mar 27, 2009
12,968
221
106
Maybe I should buy one of these desktops advertised with "24GB memory", with an i7-8700 CPU, an 8th-Gen Core microprocessor with six cores and HyperThreading, and run BOINC, a distributed-computing controller program, with 12 "Tasks", one per CPU core/hyperthread, with the configuration with 8GB DDR4-2667 + 16GB Optane Memory cache, and another otherwise-identical system, with 24GB of REAL DDR4-2667, and a HDD, and set both systems running, and monitor their task throughput over 24 hours. (Running a project that requires nearly 2GB of RAM per task, thus 24GB.)

I'm interested.
 

nosirrahx

Senior member
Mar 24, 2018
304
75
101
I would be willing to bet that with the way Optane works that 16GB is not going to be great on a system where you greatly exceed the available RAM.

The 32GB module would be far better for that, 58GB 800P would be even better.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,894
3,247
126
I guess as a reader of tech, I just don't understand the sudden outrage now that some systems are shipping with this. When this product was first announced and reviewed over a year ago, it was clear where this new tech was headed. This was developed to improve HDD based pre-bulit PCs (which is by far the largest share of sold systems).

because they are forcing a lemon inside an apple to apple comparison.
Its like those garbage 1030 scam which uses DDR4 and not GDDR5.

Optane is nowhere near as expensive or as fast as regular DDR4.
If the price and speed was simular, i would not say anything, but its like plating something with gold and trying to sell it next to the real gold stuff.

Its very unethical.

Will people notice it?
Most likely not... if your misinformed to fall for the 24GB Ram scam, chances are you dont do anything which will require more then 8GB of RAM anyhow.... (i take that back lately my chrome has been very unforgiving on my RAM.)

But if you have 2 systems... one with 24GB of RAM true, and other with 8GB + 16GB Optane...
Unless the 24GB system is on a spinner and not a NVME ssd (i would hope its running a NVme with that much ram), chances are the 24GB will be a LOT faster, because its on a NVme, and also it has true 24GB ram.
 

nosirrahx

Senior member
Mar 24, 2018
304
75
101
Will people notice it?
Most likely not... if your misinformed to fall for the 24GB Ram scam, chances are you dont do anything which will require more then 8GB of RAM anyhow.... (i take that back lately my chrome has been very unforgiving on my RAM.)

I would like to elaborate on this because there is a 2nd factor the people pulling this deceptive advertising are counting on.

If someone is upgrading from an older laptop to one of these (which have a HDD at their heart) it is very likely that their last system also had a HDD.

Knowing this the Optane enhanced HDD will be so much better than their old standalone HDD that any lack in performance from exhausting 8GB of RAM will be completely masked.

The user that does not know on day 1 wont ever know.


Avoiding the use of 32GB of Optane also seems a bit dubious. Between the Optane control panel that allows for pinning of stuff needing explaining and claiming that the system has 40GB of memory it would have looked far more bogus.

Its kind of sad that deceptive advertising is actually standing in the way of selling these laptops with the superior 32GB Optane modules.
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
Its very unethical.

Will people notice it?
Most likely not...

Computers have always been about a customer understanding what they are buying. From Cyrix CPUs, to Celeron CPUs without secondary cache, to AMD Bulldozer CPUs, to graphic cards with very similar names (and very different capabilities), a wise consumer would research what they need, and what they are buying.

I think people who have used computers for a significant time frame have all been duped by a product. From Intel's first discreet graphic cards, to the SuperDisk LS-120 drives (which I stupidly bought back in the day), to all the crappy video cards back in the day that promised so much, but couldn't even have working drivers.

After learning my lessons (and largely ignoring the hype altogether), I always know exactly what I am buying before the credit card comes out the wallet. But that's just the way I look at it. The only example I have seen so far where the retailer lists Optane under the memory section is Staples. Now I'm all for Staples fixing that, but I looked at Intel's and HP's websites, and neither of them call it "RAM".
 
  • Like
Reactions: Insert_Nickname

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,553
248
106
The thing that strikes me about Optane is, the more I read about it, the cooler it has the potential to be. With RAM and all previous acceleration techologies for the drive itself, it was up to the OS to decide what got out into the "sweet spot". With Optane, you can actually put the apps you want in that drive. Now, the question is, is there any Guarantee that this Optane drive is going to be any faster than your blazing-fast EVO (for example).
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
Now, the question is, is there any Guarantee that this Optane drive is going to be any faster than your blazing-fast EVO (for example).

From the reviews I've read (even one here on Anandtech), as long as the person doesn't exceed the amount of Optane they have installed, a traditional HDD will perform like a fast SSD, just with that much more storage space.

For prebuilt systems which 99% of the time come with a HDD in the base configuration, it seems like a win for people who are non-enthusiasts. It will make their PC feel a lot more responsive by having the Optane rather another 8GB of RAM installed.

Because nothing is as grinding, at least for me, than using a system that still uses a HDD for the OS. Frankly, it's just unbearable after using a PC with a SSD for the OS.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1274...ry-m10-64gb-review-optane-caching-refreshed/9
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ketchup

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,894
3,247
126
you can not use both a nvme drive and optane at the same time.

Is optane + spinner anywhere near a pci-e nvme.... hecks no...
You even notice some difference when loading up from a nvme vs std ssd.

So this completely kills that upgrade route, as you would need to give up optane + bulk of your memory if you wanted a fast nvme as a boot drive.

Honestly this is something id expect Apple to do.
They solder the SSD directly to the board so its not serviceable.
 
Last edited:

nosirrahx

Senior member
Mar 24, 2018
304
75
101
Now I'm all for Staples fixing that, but I looked at Intel's and HP's websites, and neither of them call it "RAM".

No but you could quote it directly, unless you don't want your good name attached to the lie they are promoting.

"20GB (4GB + 16GB Intel Optane) Memory"

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAEYJ7WJ9381

You cannot add 2 dissimilar things together and give a total. Doing so implies:

A. That these things can be added together as they have identical function.

OR

B. The IT industry has unanimously decided the definition of memory now specifically includes Intel Optane.

And again, why no 32GB modules here? The systems would function better as there would be double the cache and the cache would use both file and block level caching instead of the block only function of the 16GB modules.

The answer is simple, claiming that a laptop has 40GB of 'memory' would look so ludicrous that they opted stick with 16GB modules to better obscure their deception.

Go ahead and check the ones on Amazon with a configuration. Not one of them has the option of 32GB Optane module. They could literally make more $ and provide better performance options but they wont do it because it exposes the BS.
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
No but you could quote it directly, unless you don't want your good name attached to the lie they are promoting.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. ;)

I quoted it earlier in this discussion. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject. I have no dog in the fight, so it's of no concern of what their listing states. That's for high-priced lawyers to argue about.
 

UsandThem

Elite Member
May 4, 2000
16,068
7,380
146
you can not use both a nvme drive and optane at the same time.

I think the market that Optane memory is really aimed at is the lower cost prebuilt towers / entry-level laptops, and those customers won't be even looking at NVMe drives. It's kinda like that so many of the prebuilt towers have motherboards that have very few SATA ports (the last HP tower I bought only had 4 total), and only two slots for RAM modules. There are sacrifices made in the entry-level market.
 

IntelUser2000

Elite Member
Oct 14, 2003
8,686
3,786
136
And again, why no 32GB modules here?

Simple. Cost.

They are doing a disservice by calling it memory. You can have a decent product, but have shady marketing teams to go along with it.

Then again, most of the corporate world is about obfuscation and deception anyways. Not that I'm excusing Intel because everyone's doing it.
 

nosirrahx

Senior member
Mar 24, 2018
304
75
101
Simple. Cost.

I don't buy that as the configuration would leave the 16 VS 32GB option up to the customer. The configuration one some of these lets you select 32GB of RAM and 2TB HDD. If saving $ was the goal these options would not exist.

Calling 16GB of Optane memory locked them into a corner where they cannot offer the 32GB option, which would be both the more profitable option and preferable option.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,360
4,066
75
I wonder how 8gb ram + a swap file on a 16gb Optane drive would compare to 16gb ram alone? I remember when my computer was limited to 4GB, I wished I could plug some fast cache drive into a pcie slot.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cbn

nosirrahx

Senior member
Mar 24, 2018
304
75
101
I wonder how 8gb ram + a swap file on a 16gb Optane drive would compare to 16gb ram alone? I remember when my computer was limited to 4GB, I wished I could plug some fast cache drive into a pcie slot.

The lack of cache attached to the HDD would be such a huge detriment that anything you gain from faster swap file would seem negligible.

A slow SATA SSD with 4GB of RAM and 16GB of Optane assigned to swap file would probably feel OK to use for daily activities.