Best value "Entry Level" gaming PC.

[cbn]

You should look at the specifications of the two cards you re comparing, theses are not exactly equivalent products, the 10$ delta is somewhat justified.

I think it is nice the ASRock Z78 has six SATA ports, but we are talking gaming PCs here and it really doesn't need so many to fulfill that function.

What FM2+ really needs is a lower price in the Mini-ITX category.

P.S. Rebates are nice, but having a $10 delta with rebate is not quite the same as a $10 delta without rebate.

 

[Abwx]

I think it is nice the ASRock Z78 has six SATA ports, but we are talking gaming PCs here and it really doesn't need so many to fulfill that function.

What FM2+ really needs is a lower price in the Mini-ITX category.

P.S. Rebates are nice, but having a $10 delta with rebate is not quite the same as a $10 delta without rebate.

And more USB3 ports, though the most interesting feature is that you can plug a 100$ 4C Kaveri, or even a 80$ 4C Trinity/Richland, et get acceptable gaming performance while with a H81 you are left helpless on this front, but with a 155-175$ for APU + MB that s a completely different segment than the AM1 wich for this price can get you the offer you bought plus 4GB RAM and a 64GB SSD, that s about the whole PC.

 

[cbn]

Other than that a H81 mITX is at least 65€ here, a Celeron can be had for 38-40€ while a MSI AM1 mITX is 27-28€, the rich featured Asrock AM1B ITX is 30€, the Athlon 5350 is about 50€, using the Asrock board you ll end with 80€, the Intel solution is 105€, i guess that it s about the same in the US, just that it s $.

I will say I am glad there have been sale prices in the US since I wrote the following Athlon 5350/MSI AM1l vs G1820/Asrock H81M-ITX price analysis:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=36746209&postcount=51

MSI's AM1 mini-ITX board (listed earlier in the thread) was $33.99 free shipping. Add in an Athlon 5350 at $59.99 free shipping and the the total is now $93.98 free shipping.

That is only $14 less than the combined cost of a $42.99 free shipping Celeron G1820 --> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HCM8QQE/...xtension-kb-20 and $64.99 free shipping MSI H81 Mini-ITX board ---> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F4J5D9K/?tag=extension-kb-20 which comes out to be $107.98 free shipping

Hopefully we see more of these sales because I feel going by listed retail prices of $59 for Athlon 5350 and $42 for Celeron G1820, AMD is not stacking up well against Intel. And this becomes even more problematic for Athlon 5350 when we transition to Micro ATX where AM1 has a much smaller price advantage compared to LGA 1150.

Now regarding comparisons of AM1 to Bay Trail-D, of course that will inevitable. However, practically speaking I don't know how fair this really is when AMD has a fan on the processor (that isn't exactly the most quiet I have ever heard).

I guess if I were to sum of some of AM1's problems it would be:

1. Athlon 5350 is not low enough in power to qualify for fanless, but yet not powerful enough to compete with other low cost processors either.

2. AM1's heatsink looks primarily designed with low cost in mind, rather than silence.

3. The low end AM1s don't line-up well with Intel Bay-D Celerons. (In fact, even the J1800 dual core posts better browser benchmark scores than even the Athlon 5150).

 

[cbn]

the most interesting feature is that you can plug a 100$ 4C Kaveri, or even a 80$ 4C Trinity/Richland, et get acceptable gaming performance while with a H81 you are left helpless on this front

The H81 will take more powerful processors as well.

 

[Abwx]

I guess if I were to sum of some of AM1's problems it would be:
1. Athlon 5350 is not low enough in power to qualify for fanless, but yet not powerful enough to compete with other low cost processors either.

Any power comsumption measurements since you have a plateform.??.

I measured this in my plateform :

IDLE 10.3W LUXBALL GPU LUXBALL CPU LUXBALL CPU + GPU

CONSO WATTS 15.9W 23.8W 27.8W

DELTA 5.6W 13.5W 17.5W



LINPACK PRIME 95 TT

28.5W 29.6W


Asrock AM1H ITX
Athlon 5350 2.05GHz
8GB 1600Mhz 1.35V
SSD 128Go
HDD 320Go
KBoard PS2
WL mouse USB
Wifi USB
PSU adapter 65W 15V

2. AM1's heatsink looks primarily designed with low cost in mind, rather than silence.

There s a silent option in the bios in principle, it is largely enough ,even with Prime 95 the fan wont get any faster, i guess that you didnt read the thermal design guideline, you would had known that the plateform is designed to work with a 45°C ambiant inside the case and no other fan.

3. The low end AM1s don't line-up well with Intel Bay-D Celerons. (In fact, even the J1800 dual core posts better browser benchmark scores than even the Athlon 5150).

The AM1 have 25% better integer IPC and roughly 30% on FP and that s without using AVX , there s AES-NI and a GPU that is twice the perfs of the BTs, that s simply another level.

Now try to mount a BT mini itx board inside a case like the Antec ISK 110 with no extractor, chances are that the CPU will throttle considerably once the case thermal inertia has been overcomed.

I guess that you tested the thing at 1.6 and at its stock frequency...

The H81 will take more powerful processors as well.

Not to be advised in small boxes and still , it wont improve the GPU that much.

 

[mistersprinkles]

I think it is nice the ASRock Z78 has six SATA ports,

LOL. Z78 eh? I must have missed it when that one came out. :whiste:

 

[cbn]

it wont improve the GPU that much.

Here are some prices I found for 4C Kaveri and 4C Trinity/Richland:



A8-7600:

$109.99 FS http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...FY17fgodhrAATg

$107.99 FS http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LUH1N4O/...xtension-kb-20

$109.99 plus shipping http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...Vrt5U1r2CkUTJQ



A8-6600K:

$89.99 FS with promo code http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113333

$89.99 FS http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CPLGGWS/...xtension-kb-20



A8-5600K:

$89.99 FS with promo code http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113281

$89.99 FS http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0095VPAVE/...xtension-kb-20

$99.99 plus shipping http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...wgvKa_UiiJUUow



This compared to Pentium G3258:

$59.50 FS after promo code http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117374

$59.49 FS http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KPRWAZQ/...xtension-kb-20

$59.99 plus shipping http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicat...ffiliateID=rGMTN56tf_w-KKsua5E.zAFCM7RDuSIDbA


And with the $10 price premium (after rebate) needed by FM2/FM2+ for Mini-ITX, an overclocked Pentium G3258 on H81 Mini-ITX could be coupled to either a $40 or $58 video card depending on whether the comparison is 4C Richland or 4C Kaveri.

 

[cbn]

The AM1 have 25% better integer IPC and roughly 30% on FP and that s without using AVX

I realize that AM1 has greater IPC, but then AMD clocks the Semprons so low which more than cancels out the advantage.

P.S. Regarding case thermals and throttling conditions, I haven't seen any comparisons.

 

[Abwx]

I realize that AM1 has greater IPC, but then AMD clocks the Semprons so low which more than cancels out the advantage.

P.S. Regarding case thermals and throttling conditions, I haven't seen any comparisons.

Since i wasnt that much budget constrained i used this case, notice that it has an integrated power supply that use a DC adapter like a pico PSU but contrary to the latter it use a 19V DC adaptator so the ATX 12V has yet another converter to go through while a pico PSU use a 12V DC adaptator that reduce the requirements of the ATX DC converters.

Since the MB has a DC input i didnt use the case PSU as the former has better efficency overall but the case is good to be upgraded as with thoses commodity PCs you change the MB + APU in 5 years for 80$, ther s no need to really look for future ugradability, changing thoses two elements will be the cheaper and by far the most efficient way.

Temperature delta between room and the inner casing air was 12°C when the plateform was absorbing 25W, you ll notice that the 5350 fan will be at about 2cm of the holed plate, this allow to pull a really tiny amount of cool air, the panel on the top is not very big and do not allow for a large convection.

Edit : Why are you stuck on the 1.3 Sempron, what is it about at 1.6 and 2.05 since you have the good chip.?.

 

[Enigmoid]

Since i wasnt that much budget constrained i used this case, notice that it has an integrated power supply that use a DC adapter like a pico PSU but contrary to the latter it use a 19V DC adaptator so the ATX 12V has yet another converter to go through while a pico PSU use a 12V DC adaptator that reduce the requirements of the ATX DC converters.

Since the MB has a DC input i didnt use the case PSU as the former has better efficency overall but the case is good to be upgraded as with thoses commodity PCs you change the MB + APU in 5 years for 80$, ther s no need to really look for future ugradability, changing thoses two elements will be the cheaper and by far the most efficient way.

Temperature delta between room and the inner casing air was 12°C when the plateform was absorbing 25W, you ll notice that the 5350 fan will be at about 2cm of the holed plate, this allow to pull a really tiny amount of cool air, the panel on the top is not very big and do not allow for a large convection.

Edit : Why are you stuck on the 1.3 Sempron, what is it about at 1.6 and 2.05 since you have the good chip.?.

Are you talking about cooling?

A tiny super thin laptop can easily shunt 50W+ of heat if designed properly.

Upgrade the PC for $80 in 5 years. Yeah right. Add in the new RAM, and storage (because at five years the mechanical disk or SSD may be iffy) and likely a new PSU.

 

[MiddleOfTheRoad]

Hopefully we see more of these sales because I feel going by listed retail prices of $59 for Athlon 5350 and $42 for Celeron G1820, AMD is not stacking up well against Intel. And this becomes even more problematic for Athlon 5350 when we transition to Micro ATX where AM1 has a much smaller price advantage compared to LGA 1150.

It's only problematic for people who can't figure out that a low power single channel memory socketed SOC that was mostly designed for embedded and third world countries was never designed to compete with Intel's mainstream desktop offerings.

Seriously..... Why don't you compare some desktops to tablets while your at it?

 

[cbn]

It's only problematic for people who can't figure out that a low power single channel memory socketed SOC that was mostly designed for embedded and third world countries was never designed to compete with Intel's mainstream desktop offerings.

AMD can design or have intentions for whatever goal they want to, but it doesn't mean they will meet that goal.

I'm sorry but fact remains Athlon 5350 is still a $59 chip that must compete with a $42 Celeron G1820 (in some instances) due to its cost.

Now if you told me AMD has designed a $5 to $15 SOC for third world countries, then I wouldn't be comparing to the Celeron G1820.

Seriously..... Why don't you compare some desktops to tablets while your at it?

With gaming desktops in the value category case cooling or power supply is rarely a limitation. Whether the processor is 25 watts or 54 watts, the difference in TDP is not going to have much if any impact.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I'm sorry but fact remains Athlon 5350 is still a $59 chip that must competes with a $42 Celeron G1820 (in some instances) due to its cost.

With gaming desktops in the value category case cooling or power supply is rarely a limitation. Whether the processor is 25 watts or 54 watts, the difference in TDP is not going to have much if any impact.

This is true. If AMD truely didn't want their AM1 CPUs to be compared to Haswell Celerons, then they shouldn't price them in the same range.

Personally, I haven't invested in AM1, it seems a bit too limited (only two SATA ports), and overpriced.

 

[Abwx]

Are you talking about cooling?

A tiny super thin laptop can easily shunt 50W+ of heat if designed properly.

That s not possible, take a laptop with a 35W CPU and run just CB 11.5,
do you realize what is 50W.?.

Upgrade the PC for $80 in 5 years. Yeah right. Add in the new RAM, and storage (because at five years the mechanical disk or SSD may be iffy) and likely a new PSU.

The case has a 90W PSU, why would it need to be upgraded.?..

Besides any PC would need RAM or SSD upgrade, it would just cost a lot more with a big plateform.

it seems a bit too limited (only two SATA ports), and overpriced.

4 USB3 + 4 SATA 3 ports Asrock AM1B itx MB cost less than the 2 USB3 + 2 SATA 3 Asus standard board and about 2-3$ more than the rock bottom priced MSI mITX, if you want such features in a 1150 it will cost more than the double, i dont even talk of BT boards, if you want to talk limitations you should rather point in this direction.

 

[Abwx]

AMD can design or have intentions for whatever goal they want to, but it doesn't mean they will meet that goal.

I'm sorry but fact remains Athlon 5350 is still a $59 chip that must compete with a $42 Celeron G1820 (in some instances) due to its cost.

Now if you told me AMD has designed a $5 to $15 SOC for third world countries, then I wouldn't be comparing to the Celeron G1820.


With gaming desktops in the value category case cooling or power supply is rarely a limitation. Whether the processor is 25 watts or 54 watts, the difference in TDP is not going to have much if any impact.

Here the 5350 is 49 and the Celerons are 38-40, nices dedicated MB s are 30 and 65 repectively, do the maths.

Celerons do provide marginal perfs and GPU improvement at double the TDP, we re talking of 10 to 20% better perfs, besides you know that the 5350 is not a real 25W TDP, anyway it looks to me that you did buy a 2.05Ghz APU just to make it run at 1.3 and then claim that it was not enough, so far we heard nothing about the experience at stocks or even at 5150 settings, i guess that s why you are already pointing the supposed high price as a mean to denigrate this chip, no doubt that it performs better than expected.

Ah, and Celeron dont even support 4K and a few other desirables features.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Ah, and Celeron dont even support 4K and a few other desirables features.

That is correct. Unfortunately the AM1 platform too doesn't. The only AM1 MB I've seen with partial (4K@30Hz) support is the Asrock AM1B.

Neither does the FM2+ platform coincidently. Or rather it does, but there are only a few MBs with DisplayPort available on-board. I don't think there are any smaller then ATX with that particular feature. Also you need a Kaveri-based APU to enable. Its a real shame.

 

[Abwx]

That is correct. Unfortunately the AM1 platform too doesn't. The only AM1 MB I've seen with partial (4K@30Hz) support is the Asrock AM1B.

Neither does the FM2+ platform coincidently. Or rather it does, but there are only a few MBs with DisplayPort available on-board. I don't think there are any smaller then ATX with that particular feature. Also you need a Kaveri-based APU to enable. Its a real shame.

AM1 has official support of 4K, besides is there an AM1 that has no DPort.?
So far look like all mini ITX MBs have one, and even if ther s none :

AMD’s Kabini APUs are capable of Ultra HD 4K display through the HDMI (30Hz) or DisplayPort (60Hz) connections

http://www.eteknix.com/amd-kabini-am1-athlon-5350-apu-fs1b-review-winning-sub-60/2/

Seems that there s a lot of innacurracies about this plateform, guess that it s the only mean to make inferior featured products look acceptable...

Edit : Kaveri s difference is that it can decode H265 on the fly thanks to its HSA features.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

AM1 has official support of 4K, besides is there an AM1 that has no DPort.?

The platform might have official support, but nobody implements it. The only AM1 board to have a DisplayPort is the Asrock AM1H:

- Integrated AMD Radeon™ R3 Series Graphics in A-series / E-series APU
- DirectX 11.1, Pixel Shader 5.0
- Max. shared memory 4GB
- Four graphics output options: D-Sub, DVI-D, HDMI and DisplayPort 1.2
- Supports HDMI with max. resolution up to 4K x 2K (4096x2160) @ 24Hz or 4K x 2K (3840x2160) @ 30Hz
- Supports DVI-D with max. resolution up to 1920x1200 @ 60Hz
- Supports D-Sub with max. resolution up to 2048x1536 @ 60Hz
- Supports DisplayPort 1.2 with max. resolution up to 4K x 2K (4096x2160) @ 30Hz
- Supports Auto Lip Sync, Deep Color (12bpc), xvYCC and HBR (High Bit Rate Audio) with HDMI Port (Compliant HDMI monitor is required)
- Supports HDCP with DVI-D, HDMI and DisplayPort 1.2 Ports
- Supports Full HD 1080p Blu-ray (BD) playback with DVI-D, HDMI and DisplayPort 1.2 Ports

 

[Abwx]

The platform might have official support, but nobody implements it. The only AM1 board to have a DisplayPort is the Asrock AM1H:

Let s see..how much you are innacurate.

Cheap MSI mITX board used by CBN :

• 4K UHD Support: Ultra-high Definition Visual Experience
• 3 Display Outputs: HDMI/DVI/D-Sub Support

http://www.msi.com/product/mb/AM1I.html#hero-specification

Perhaps that Asus.?. :

Multi-VGA output support : HDMI/DVI/RGB ports
- Supports HDMI with max. resolution 4096 x 2160 @ 24 Hz / 1920 x 1080 @ 60 Hz*1

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/AM1MA/specifications/

All Asrock mITX boards support 4K, i checked , here the AM1B ITX wich is the DC input less AM1H ITX variant :

- Supports HDMI with max. resolution up to 4K x 2K (4096x2160) @ 24Hz or 4K x 2K (3840x2160) @ 30Hz

http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/AM1B-ITX/?cat=Specifications

So contrary to what you re saying everybody implements it, even on the cheapest boards, the only board that seems deprived of this capability is the Asrock uATX AM1 BM since it looks to be devoted to industrial purposes, prove is that they have another uATX AM1 wich has the 4k capability.

http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/AM1B-M/?cat=Specifications

http://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/AM1B-MDH/?cat=Specifications

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Let s see..how much you are innacurate.

What am I inaccurate about? Proper 4K is 4096/3840x2160@60Hz. 30Hz might be okay for watching movies on HDTVs, but certainly not for PC monitors.

The only AMD boards I've seen capable of real 4K are the ASUS A88X PRO, Asrock FM2A88X Extreme6+ and Gigabyte GA-F2A88X-UP4, all of which are not exactly budget priced.

 

[Abwx]

What am I inaccurate about? Proper 4K is 4096/3840x2160@60Hz. 30Hz might be okay for watching movies on HDTVs, but certainly not for PC monitors.

The only AMD boards I've seen capable of real 4K are the ASUS A88X PRO, Asrock FM2A88X Extreme6+ and Gigabyte GA-F2A88X-UP4, all of which are not exactly budget priced.

With a sliding rule and some rethoric anything can be made accurate i guess.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

With a sliding rule and some rethoric anything can be made accurate i guess.

Now, why would I settle for a lower refresh rate then what my CGA monitor in the 80's could do? Each to his own I guess... ()

 

[Abwx]

Now, why would I settle for a lower refresh rate then what my CGA monitor in the 80's could do? Each to his own I guess... ()

And yet you re advising for no refresh rate at all at said 4K resolutions since said Celerons doesnt support even the most basic standards in this respect, simply, the AM1 has more features at the lower price range, the only competition price wise are the Baytrails, but as their name insightfully say they are trailing in some areas.

 

[cbn]

you did buy a 2.05Ghz APU just to make it run at 1.3 and then claim that it was not enough, so far we heard nothing about the experience at stocks or even at 5150 settings

I haven't posted or discussed gaming results of Athlon 5350 @ 1.3 GHz in this thread yet.

You are getting our conversation here mixed up with the one that is happening in the other thread---> http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2400691&page=3

 

[Abwx]

I haven't posted or discussed gaming results of Athlon 5350 @ 1.3 GHz in this thread yet.

You are getting our conversation here mixed up with the one that is happening in the other thread---> http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2400691&page=3

Fair, there s inherently some redundancy between such threads, on another note for those who have only 2 SATA 3 ports like in your board it s not a problem, use one for the main drive while you can plug several items on the other SATA port, AMDs SATA controler can manage several devices in a single port , bandwith per port is at roughly 4gbit/s.