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Best Sound Card for Music ?

Luddite

Senior member
Hi, I've been using a pair of Altec Lansing 2.0 speakers for several years, and they have served me well. However, I would like to upgrade. I was thinking of going the whole hog and getting a seperate high end complete home audio system, but then I thought I'd rather still listen to music on my computer and use it as my main music listening source. Thus, I'd like to get the most out of my computer for music sound quality.

I am thinking of splurging for Swan speakers:http://www.swanspeaker.com/products/products.aspx?cid=5&sid=0&pid=29

With high quality speakers, I started to think of what else I might need to feed the speakers high quality input (or is that output?)

My mobo is an uATX with onboard sound. http://ca.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=jR7eO7eY08cBntsR&templete=2

I would be playing mostly lossless files, CDs, and also would like to occasionally listen to SACD discs (if this is possible). I wouldn't be doing any recording, just listening. I'm new to this. Do I even need a discrete sound card ? If so, what do you recommend? Or would some sort of audio interface be better than a sound card?

Thanks in advance.
 
Last I checked, you can't play SACD on a computer in any even remotely legal way.

There are lots of external USB sound cards/DACs out there for your market segment.

At $500 a pair, though, I'd look at alternatives as well. Audioengine 5, JBL Pro studio monitors, a pair of passive bookshelves with an amp or AVR...
 
IMHO the best you can achieve is by having a digital output from your PC (looks like your mobo has an optical output) and using an outboard DAC (probably built in to a receiver or amplifier, although standalone DAC's are available as well), thus bypassing any sound card, period. However, this is based on theoretical considerations, and I am not sure that the average person could really hear the difference one way or the other.
 
There are now several choices for high quality PC sound. Lots of folks really like the Asus Xonar cards: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16829132010

I think you can do significantly better for speakers than those HiVi - those are $10 3" "woofers". Typically a passive speaker with external amplifier will have better SQ than most powered speakers.
http://www.jr.com/category/audio/spe...helf-speakers/
I haven't heard any of these, but the Polk AM4202, Behringer, and AudioEngine speakers look pretty good. If you are a bit handy, this kit will provide outstanding sound quality: https://www.madisound.com/store/index.php?cPath=35_40_402_408
 
Last I checked, you can't play SACD on a computer in any even remotely legal way.

There are lots of external USB sound cards/DACs out there for your market segment.

At $500 a pair, though, I'd look at alternatives as well. Audioengine 5, JBL Pro studio monitors, a pair of passive bookshelves with an amp or AVR...

SACD's DRM hasn't even been cracked yet. So you cant even play it in any illegal way either. If you have a good digital receiver, just get a card that supports bit streaming via optical out or HDMI. Otherwise I'd look at the C-Media Oxygen HD based cards (old but good) or the newer Asus Xonar ones.
 
IMHO the best you can achieve is by having a digital output from your PC (looks like your mobo has an optical output) and using an outboard DAC (probably built in to a receiver or amplifier, although standalone DAC's are available as well), thus bypassing any sound card, period. However, this is based on theoretical considerations, and I am not sure that the average person could really hear the difference one way or the other.

QFT. The longer you stay in the digital realm with PC, the better. Let a sweet Burr Brown DAC do the job, and have the shortest path possible between DAC and AMP stage (an integrated amp) This is how you obtain maximum quality from a digital source, like a PC.
 
Ok, thanks. So far what I'm learning is that speakers without amps are generally better than ones with. And SACD can't be played on a computer. Also, that I need to keep the signal digital until just before the output.

If I get a pair of passive Audioengines or JBLs etc, would I then be plugging them in to a DAC, an amp, a receiver, or the backpanel of a soundcard? Workimg backwards from the speakers, what would be the next component? I assume if I get the Asus Xonar, I wouldn't need a DAC. If I don't get the soundcard and get a DAC, would I need an amp? What requires which?

I'd like to have as few external components as possible.

Also, what is the significance of 'optical output'?
 
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OP, you can actually get some great speakers that have built in amps if you look into some of the studio monitors. They won't be cheap, but it might work out well as you could end up spending that much for bookshelf speakers and an amp. You could also consider headphones. But, you should be able to get good speakers any way you go, you'll just have to spend a bit to get really decent ones.

Oh, and something to consider is how much bass you like, you might want a sub.

As far as amps, I would actually recommend checking Craigslist and pawn shops in your area for some cheap vintage ones (say 70s or so era). You can find some excellent sounding, powerful amps for cheap. Fair warning that you'll want to check out the internals (or have a good repairman check it out) and replace any parts that might need it or even just clean it up (contacts for instance can get dirty/corroded).

As others said, SACD will likely be out unless you get a hardware player. Not sure if there's any software on the PC that you can buy to play it.

There's quite a bit of routes you can go. Since you're focus is music you could also consider external DACs. There's been quite a boon there. As for sound cards, there are some very good ones now, The Xonar Essence cards, Auzentech makes a few very good ones, and even Creative's new Titanium HD are supposed to be excellent. In short, you should be able to get a very nice quality 2 channel DAC setup, be it sound card or DAC for roughly $100-200. I haven't been keeping up a lot on DACs lately, but Nuforce has a $99 one that is supposed to be great.

D'oh, other people have pretty much said most of what I posted.

Oh, a couple of last things. You mention whole house audio but that you decided to focus on PC playback, so I didn't know how much output you need. That could help in recommendations. Also, if you have any idea of what budget you're looking at can help too.
 
Look at it this way.

On one end, you have the computer. On the other end, your ears.

You need three elements to get from one side to the other:
DAC (digital -- from USB, optical, HDMI, or other -- to analog converter)
amplification
speakers

A sound card is a DAC that sits inside your PC (not optimal, IMO, given the power flying around in there). A receiver is DAC + amp. Active speakers (studio monitors etc.) are amp + speakers.

Passive speakers are not necessarily better than active (sort of the opposite, in fact, when you hit five figures). I suggested two good active alternatives.

Some people obsess over having a separate specialized component for each stage. Some people want them all in one (soundbar). Well, soundbars aren't a good idea, but pretty much any combo will work (and there are some active studio monitors with USB inputs, meaning they actually do combine all three elements into one unit).

AVR DACs are generally excellent these days, and any of them will have plenty of power for your needs: their problem is size, and the fact that you don't need all the video circuitry they have (although economies of scale may make them more price-efficient for you anyway). You can get a small external DAC and small amp (look up T-amp) that are much desk-friendlier even together than a big rack-sized AVR. Or a higher-end combo unit like the Peachtree Decco or Nova.

It pretty much depends how you want to do the space/money/flexibility (AVRs obviously give you way more input options) tradeoffs.
 
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Look at it this way.

On one end, you have the computer. On the other end, your ears.

You need three elements to get from one side to the other:
DAC (digital -- from USB, optical, HDMI, or other -- to analog converter)
amplification
speakers

So the onboard sound I currently have, I assume has some sort of DAC, but perhaps not a very good one. (?)

A sound card is a DAC that sits inside your PC (not optimal, IMO, given the power flying around in there). A receiver is DAC + amp. Active speakers (studio monitors etc.) are amp + speakers.

Does the electronic circuitry inside a PC interfere with a soundcard DAC ?

Passive speakers are not necessarily better than active (sort of the opposite, in fact, when you hit five figures). I suggested two good active alternatives.

Some people obsess over having a separate specialized component for each stage. Some people want them all in one (soundbar). Well, soundbars aren't a good idea, but pretty much any combo will work (and there are some active studio monitors with USB inputs, meaning they actually do combine all three elements into one unit).

AVR DACs are generally excellent these days, and any of them will have plenty of power for your needs: their problem is size, and the fact that you don't need all the video circuitry they have (although economies of scale may make them more price-efficient for you anyway). You can get a small external DAC and small amp (look up T-amp) that are much desk-friendlier even together than a big rack-sized AVR. Or a higher-end combo unit like the Peachtree Decco or Nova.

It pretty much depends how you want to do the space/money/flexibility (AVRs obviously give you way more input options) tradeoffs.

Well, my first preference would be a soundcard. But if that is not optimal, I would consider going with an AVR. I do have my printer and fax on a rack beside my computer. By shuffling some things around, I could put an integrated amp or receiver on the rack. I could even possibly place a blue-ray player (like an oppo) on top of the AVR. That way I could play SACDs as well.

So, from my computer....I would connect a cable (what kind? and from where, optical out?) to the AVR (or DAC, if I decide to go with a small external one). Then connect speakers to AVR. ?

What happens if I get active speakers, but also end up getting an AVR or integrated amp? Does one amp override the other?
 
So the onboard sound I currently have, I assume has some sort of DAC, but perhaps not a very good one. (?)



Does the electronic circuitry inside a PC interfere with a soundcard DAC ?



Well, my first preference would be a soundcard. But if that is not optimal, I would consider going with an AVR. I do have my printer and fax on a rack beside my computer. By shuffling some things around, I could put an integrated amp or receiver on the rack. I could even possibly place a blue-ray player (like an oppo) on top of the AVR. That way I could play SACDs as well.

So, from my computer....I would connect a cable (what kind? and from where, optical out?) to the AVR (or DAC, if I decide to go with a small external one). Then connect speakers to AVR. ?

What happens if I get active speakers, but also end up getting an AVR or integrated amp? Does one amp override the other?

Ok, a number of questions in this post.
From the top:
Yes, typically the DAC (digital to analog converter) on a PC motherboard is not very good. OEMs can't spend a lot of money on audio when the MB sells for $100 or less.

Yes, to a certain extent, the power and RF inside your PC case will cause a bit of noise in the audio. Some sound cards (like the Asus XONAR) are basically completed shielded to overcome this.

Lots of people prefer optical (SPDIF and/or TOSLINK) outputs from the PC going to an AVR because this connection type has inherent low noise and can carry 7.1 signals if you wish.

The signal flow is this:
digital music files --> DAC --> PREAMP --> AMP --> SPEAKERS

The DAC and Preamp are built into an internal sound card, or you can use an external DAC and connect that to an AVR. The connection between your PC and and external DAC is usually USB. If you have powered speakers, then the amp is inside the speaker, and all you need is an internal sound card.

Clear?

I forget totally what your budget was, but here is a very nice external DAC: http://www.amazon.com/Cambridge-Audi...7058466&sr=8-2
 
Perfectly clear. Thanks Joe.

The only thing I'm left wondering is regards to the signal flow. What happens if you have a signal passing through two components with the same interface e.g. a CD player with a built-in DAC connected to an external DAC, or an integrated amp connected with powered (amp) speakers? Does the signal then get double-converted, and /or get double amplified?
 
Perfectly clear. Thanks Joe.

The only thing I'm left wondering is regards to the signal flow. What happens if you have a signal passing through two components with the same interface e.g. a CD player with a built-in DAC connected to an external DAC, or an integrated amp connected with powered (amp) speakers? Does the signal then get double-converted, and /or get double amplified?

No. Take your example of a CD player with an internal DAC, which is also connected to an external DAC. (This could NOT happen over the same interface. An analog interface (post-DAC) cannot simultaneously double as a digital interface (pre-DAC).) You could have the analog outputs from the CD player connected to an amplifier, and the digital output from the CD player running to a DAC which would then also be connected to a (different) amplifier. This means there are now two analog signals, one from each DAC. You could amplify one or the other, or both. You can't re-convert an analog signal by passing it through a DAC again; it's a one-way transformation. (To go the other way, you need an analog-digital converter, or ADC.)

Double amplification is not possible, really. I suppose you *could* run an amplified signal into the analog inputs of an amp, and it could work -- maybe (I am not sure and I would be scared to try it). But only the last amp before the speakers (i.e., the amp that's actually connected to the speakers) actually powers the speakers and therefore determines the overall power.

Let me just run through some terminology on the end-to-end solution here. This has already been done by s44 and joetekubi, but maybe I can clarify.

You start with a digital signal. This comes from your CPU. This digital signal needs to be converted to an analog signal by a DAC. This analog signal is called a "low-level" signal because it is not very powerful. It is powerful enough to power tiny speakers or headphones, or to carry a signal from one component to another; but not to power normal speakers. The low-level analog signal needs to be amplified in order to power speakers. Once amplified, it becomes a "high-level" analog signal, and it is only useful for powering speakers. (As I said above, it's *possible* that you could connect it into the low-level inputs of an amp or other component, but I think it would probably damage those inputs.)

So, in schematic form.... signals will be in (), devices will be in []

[PC]-> (digital signal) -> [DAC] -> (analog low-level signal) -> [amp] -> (analog high-level signal) -> [speakers]

The (digital signal) is carried by an optical or coaxial digital cable.
The (analog low-level signal) is probably carried by multiple RCA cables or a single 1/8" headphone jack type cable.
The (analog high-level signal) is carried by a two-conductor speaker wire.

The (analog low-level signal) is most susceptible to RF interference. The (digital signal) is impervious, and the (analog high-level signal) is very resistant to interference.

Now, each of the devices above does one thing, and one thing only. A [DAC] accepts a digital signal, and it cannot act upon an analog signal; and it outputs an analog low-level signal. An [amp] accepts an analog low-level signal, and it cannot act upon any other kind of signal (although many [amp]s have [DAC]s built-in, I'm still counting each as a separate device even though they may reside within the same physical object); and it outputs an analog high-level signal. [Speakers] accept only high-level analog signals.

Now not all of these devices will be standalone devices as in the schematic. To give some examples:

The [DAC] could be integrated into the [PC], thus keeping the (digital signal) wholly internal to the [PC]. And the [amp] could be integrated into the [speakers], thus keeping the (analog high-level signal) wholly within the [speakers]. Or there are even [speakers] with a built-in [amp] AND [DAC], thus crunching 3 devices into one physical object. And of course it is common for the [amp] to have a built-in [DAC], thus eliminating the analog low-level signal. I don't think I've ever seen a decent [amp] nor [speakers] that could really be built-in to a [PC], though (although of course laptops have tiny speakers and amps), so we're looking at a minimum of two devices here... although if you wanted to fabricate a monster PC case with built-in high-quality speakers and an amp, I'm sure you could (although it would likely end up weighing over 100lbs and it would be quite a bit bigger than most PC's).

Now, to add a couple of more terms.

An integrated amp includes a power [amp] and a pre-amp. Nowadays a pre-amp pretty much means a device that can switch among input sources, so you could have a CD player, a PC, and a DVD player all plugged into one pre-amp, and push a button on the pre-amp to choose which one you want to listen to. Pre-amps usually have built-in [DAC]s nowadays too, but strictly speaking, a pre-amp will be analog and the [DAC] will be considered a separate device in the signal path. A receiver is simply an integrated amp with a built-in radio tuner. Strictly speaking, a pre-amp is mostly for convenience in switching sources (although a pre-amp is required for listening to vinyl records with a standard record player). If you just have one source, the pre-amp is not required, and you can plug the source directly into the amp.
 
No. Take your example of a CD player with an internal DAC, which is also connected to an external DAC. (This could NOT happen over the same interface. An analog interface (post-DAC) cannot simultaneously double as a digital interface (pre-DAC).) You could have the analog outputs from the CD player connected to an amplifier, and the digital output from the CD player running to a DAC which would then also be connected to a (different) amplifier. This means there are now two analog signals, one from each DAC. You could amplify one or the other, or both. You can't re-convert an analog signal by passing it through a DAC again; it's a one-way transformation. (To go the other way, you need an analog-digital converter, or ADC.)

What I was asking is what happens if you have more than one component hooked up, each with a DAC. Say, a CD player (with a DAC) connected to receiver (also with a DAC) and then connected to speakers. The signal goes from the CD DAC to the receiver. I guess since the signal coming from the CD player DAC would have been coverted to an analog signal, the DAC inside the receiver wouldn't process it? So the signal would just flow through to the receiver's amp to the speakers?
 
What I was asking is what happens if you have more than one component hooked up, each with a DAC. Say, a CD player (with a DAC) connected to receiver (also with a DAC) and then connected to speakers. The signal goes from the CD DAC to the receiver. I guess since the signal coming from the CD player DAC would have been coverted to an analog signal, the DAC inside the receiver wouldn't process it? So the signal would just flow through to the receiver's amp to the speakers?

Yes.

As I mentioned, the interfaces are different. The CD player has a digital output and an analog output. The digital output has not been run through the CD player's DAC; the analog output has. Similarly, the receiver has a digital input and an analog input. The digital inputs are run through the receiver's DAC, while the analog inputs are not.* If you hook up the CD player's digital output to the receiver's analog input, no sound will come out. If you hook up the CD player's analog output to the receiver's digital output, no sound will come out. (And in most cases nowadays, the digital jacks are all optical (square hole) and the analog jacks are electrical (round hole), so they couldn't even be plugged in that way.)

*Unless the receiver does some other processing to the signal that requires moving it into the digital domain. Audyssey and many surround-sound processing modes do this.
 
Yes.

As I mentioned, the interfaces are different. The CD player has a digital output and an analog output. The digital output has not been run through the CD player's DAC; the analog output has. Similarly, the receiver has a digital input and an analog input. The digital inputs are run through the receiver's DAC, while the analog inputs are not.* If you hook up the CD player's digital output to the receiver's analog input, no sound will come out. If you hook up the CD player's analog output to the receiver's digital output, no sound will come out. (And in most cases nowadays, the digital jacks are all optical (square hole) and the analog jacks are electrical (round hole), so they couldn't even be plugged in that way.)

*Unless the receiver does some other processing to the signal that requires moving it into the digital domain. Audyssey and many surround-sound processing modes do this.

Thanks. I think I understand now. That makes sense with regards to DACs. For the question of amplification; If you have powered speakers (an amp inside the speakers) but also have an amp inside a receiver or integrated amp, does one amp override the other? Which amp would be doing the work?
 
Thanks. I think I understand now. That makes sense with regards to DACs. For the question of amplification; If you have powered speakers (an amp inside the speakers) but also have an amp inside a receiver or integrated amp, does one amp override the other? Which amp would be doing the work?

The amp inside the speakers would be doing the work. I have never seen a speaker with a built-in amp that also has high-level inputs that would accept a connection from an outside amp. There is simply no way to hook up the speakers to the amplifier's high-level output (speaker wire). You *could* run analog low-level output (RCA cables) from the receiver to the analog low-level inputs of the powered speakers. In this case, you would be using the receiver simply as a pre-amp, and not using its power amp at all. There is no way to "double amplify" a signal in the way that you are describing.
 
So then it wouldn't make sense to have both a receiver (with an amp), or an integrated amp AND powered speakers (?)

By the same token, what if you have, say, a CD player (with a DAC) and a receiver (with a DAC), but the DAC on the receiver is better and you want to use that one. Is there a way to bypass the CD player's DAC?
 
So then it wouldn't make sense to have both a receiver (with an amp), or an integrated amp AND powered speakers (?)

Right. Unless, again, you needed a way to switch between multiple sources, and a receiver was your cheapest option.

By the same token, what if you have, say, a CD player (with a DAC) and a receiver (with a DAC), but the DAC on the receiver is better and you want to use that one. Is there a way to bypass the CD player's DAC?

Just use the CD player's digital output. It is a totally different plug on the back of the CD player. Do not use the analog outputs. They have passed through the DAC. The digital outputs have not. This is exactly the scenario that I described 2 posts ago. I do not know how many different ways I can put it.
 
Ok, one last question: Since I can't play SACD on the computer, I'd like to play the music files on my computer, and then play the SACDs (and the blu-ray movies) through a separate (oppo) player. I'm not sure how to connect the player through the computer because there is a clause in the manual that states:

"Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACD, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections."

Is there a way to get both the computer and player connected up to the same monitor and speakers without having to buy an AVR receiver?
 
Ok, one last question: Since I can't play SACD on the computer, I'd like to play the music files on my computer, and then play the SACDs (and the blu-ray movies) through a separate (oppo) player. I'm not sure how to connect the player through the computer because there is a clause in the manual that states:

"Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACD, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections."

Is there a way to get both the computer and player connected up to the same monitor and speakers without having to buy an AVR receiver?

It depends on the inputs on your monitor and speakers. Or, if there is just one input, you can manually change the cables around when you want to watch or listen to a different source.
 
Why on earth would you get an Oppo? Buy the Sony S370 and put the rest of the money into the audio. (The price difference can get a pretty nice AVR so you can go all-HDMI.)
 
It depends on the inputs on your monitor and speakers. Or, if there is just one input, you can manually change the cables around when you want to watch or listen to a different source.

My monitor has Displayport and DVI-D. I was thinking of possibly getting a second monitor. If I do, should I look for one with HDMI? I haven't upgraded my speakers yet. What inputs should I look for?

Why on earth would you get an Oppo? Buy the Sony S370 and put the rest of the money into the audio. (The price difference can get a pretty nice AVR so you can go all-HDMI.)

I orginally wanted to get an Oppo because of the video quality, versatility and the DAC (at least on this model http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83se/).

But I see what you mean. Get a cheaper universal (Blu-Ray/SACD) player and use the savings to load up on a high quality AVR with a good DAC. Is there any difference in audio quality running an HDMI out from the SACD player to the AVR, vs. running the optical out to the AVR?
 
Look.... being totally honest here, I don't see how you even know enough to know that SACD sounds better than normal CD, or how to tell one DAC from another. You don't even know the very basic facts of how to hook up audio equipment. I don't see why you want to go high-end on everything. It just doesn't make any sense. It's like you want to get a Corvette before you have even learned how to drive around the corner. You could have gone down to a pawnshop, spent $100 on a used HTIB and by now have a greater understanding of what's going on with all this stuff, than you currently do after several days of discussion and explanation.

There are many ways to do research on these matters. Coming back with question after question is just asking too much, literally. I am not your personal audio advisor. I am happy to answer questions, but when you don't seem to listen/read and just keep coming back with questions that betray your lack of basic knowledge, reading/learning ability, and ability to do independent research with a few minutes of Google, I have to question why I spend so much time answering questions.

If you truly want a high-end setup without having to figure out how all of it works, go and pay somebody to buy and set up the system for you. If you do want to figure out how all of it works, go and buy some cheap stuff yourself and play around with it, and do some independent research (i.e., a few Google searches) and THEN come back with questions once it's clear that you have a basic ground-level grasp about how things work.
 
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