Best (non-RT) windows hybrids? (T100, Miix 2, ..)

[ziphnor]

Hi,

We currently only have one tablet at home (Nexus 10), but i am now looking to add another one to the collection as its become a bit too popular

I like the Nexus 10 a lot for consuming content, but it is not really at its best (even with a keyboard) if you need to write emails/document move files or remote (via RDP) to a more powerful PC.

That is why i am looking at Windows 8.1 hybrids/tablets with good keyboards as a way of getting an additional tablet that can also be used as a laptop as needed. The ability to play light-weight PC games also holds an attraction.

My preferences are:

1. 10+" inches
2. Prefer 16:10 over 16:9 displays
3. Prefer full hd or higher (having gotten used to 2560x1600 on Nexus)
4. Prefer adjustable angle when attached
5. Want good "tablet-like" battery life
6. Tablet part must not be heavier than Nexus 10 (~600g)

The weight and battery life restrictions rule out the Surface Pro 2 (900g!), so i am mostly looking at the new Bay Trail hybrids.

So far the only relevant ones i have found are:

• Asus Transformer Book T100
• Lenovo Miix 2 10

Both satisfy the size and weight requirements. But unfortunately the Miix 2 is the clear winner on display, while the T100 has much better battery (they have same specs but 31Wh vs 24Wh battery) and adjustable angle. Here in Denmark they are priced about the same (Lenovo about 5% more expensive), making it a tricky decision.

I was wondering if anyone had any input on the two as well as suggestions for other current or upcoming hybrids that i should keep an eye on?

I am particularly interested in how well the Miix 2 works as a laptop without adjustable angle, as well as battery life.

 

[paperwastage]

Dell venue pro 11 meets everything but weight (about 780g for tablet part)

I've heard negative things about the miix 2 10 keyboard dock. You only get one angle to dock, held by magnetics and it can be easy to accidentally detatch the dock

Its kinda hard to satisfy battery life, weight and hd display if you are looking at nexus 7 as a comparison. A windows tablet would use more power consumption than your n7. Either you put more battery cells(raising weight) or take it out (lower battery life)


//owns an asus t100(and accidentally broke the digitizer last week)

The display is something I wished I could change ( more brightness and then higher resolution)

 

[ziphnor]

Dell venue pro 11 meets everything but weight (about 780g for tablet part)

It also doesn't have a 16:10 screen (its 16:9), but i could live with that.

I did look at it, but i figured with 780g one might as well go to 900g and the Surface Pro 2, but looking again, i can see that they actually offer it with an i5 without increasing the weight. That kind of makes me a bit interested in it again, though i would be interested in its battery life.

I've heard negative things about the miix 2 10 keyboard dock. You only get one angle to dock, held by magnetics and it can be easy to accidentally detatch the dock

Thats exactly the kind of things i am worried about. If they just had a proper hinge and matched the 31Wh battery it would be the obvious choice. Still, its a great screen, and it looks good (on photos at least

Its kinda hard to satisfy battery life, weight and hd display if you are looking at nexus 7 as a comparison.

I am comparing with Nexus 10, not Nexus 7

The display is something I wished I could change ( more brightness and then higher resolution)

1366x768 does seem awfully low resolution, considering that it is frequently held quite close to your eyes. Apart from breaking the digitizer, how did you find the T100?

 

[paperwastage]

It also doesn't have a 16:10 screen (its 16:9), but i could live with that.

I did look at it, but i figured with 780g one might as well go to 900g and the Surface Pro 2, but looking again, i can see that they actually offer it with an i5 without increasing the weight. That kind of makes me a bit interested in it again, though i would be interested in its battery life.


Thats exactly the kind of things i am worried about. If they just had a proper hinge and matched the 31Wh battery it would be the obvious choice. Still, its a great screen, and it looks good (on photos at least



I am comparing with Nexus 10, not Nexus 7



1366x768 does seem awfully low resolution, considering that it is frequently held quite close to your eyes. Apart from breaking the digitizer, how did you find the T100?

Well, the Asus t100 has a 16:9 screen too

Don't think the surface pro offers a true keyboard hinge dock which is disappointing...

And yes, I meant the nexus 10

My Asus t100 fits what I expect of it- if I need something quick to do(read/respond quickly to emails,media consumption...), my android 5" nexus 5 can do it. Something more powerful (eg drafting long email, looking at PDFs or researching something, portable light gaming), my t100 fits the bill. If I need something more(programming, gaming), I'll go for my dual screen desktop. The screen is a disappointment, but I've learned to cope with it. The low maximum brightness is more annoying than low resolution when outdoors with glare/sunlight

I might upgrade to cherry trail when it comes out just to get a better screen( if I don't find a cheap part to replace my digitizer). If any of these hybrids came with a working android dual boot, it'll be sweeter (consuming media stuff on a windows 8 tablet isn't as polished as android)

 

[quikah]

I think the t100 is really the only acceptable one with keyboard dock. The miix fixed angle hinge, magnetic dock, and small battery are too many compromises. Dell is just too heavy and expensive, however the keyboard with the extra battery is pretty nice.

Look into a BT keyboard with stand. If you don't need the laptop experience that can be a good compromise and give you more tablet choices. The ms one is supposedly very good, but a bit expensive. Logitech has a couple good ones also.

 

[s44]

I'm using the Logitech K810 with my Note and the key feel is surprisingly good. Also I've found that having the tablet propped up in portrait is amazing, much more natural than the fixed landscape orientation of a laptop.

 

[Ravynmagi]

I returned my ASUS T100. It just felt way too cheap, I had issues with the keyboard, and it's really hard to pick up a 10 inch tablet with a really low resolution screen and be happy with it. It was a devices with way too many compromises to meet the super budget $350 price.

The Lenovo Miix 2 10 looks promising. The keyboard has a fixed viewing angle, but I like that docking and undocking would be super easy-quick. However I've had a couple other budget Lenovo 2-in-1s in the past and I've been extremely disappointed with the quality of Lenovo's keyboards. And the bigger problem is it's only sold by Lenovo.com and back ordered for "greater than 5 weeks".

The Dell Venue 11 Pro looks nice. I tried to buy one late last year, but it was hard to find in stock. Now however I'm just not sure I want to spend $650 on a Baytrail tablet with 2GB of RAM. I think we'll be seeing some Baytrial 4GB tablets coming soon (someone mentioned Fujitsu has a business tablet out already).

I think I'm going to wait a little longer for the next batch of Baytrail 2-in-1s to arrive.

 

[zerogear]

Aren't Bay Trail running 32-bit Windows? If so, I doubt 4GB will happen

 

[Ravynmagi]

Aren't Bay Trail running 32-bit Windows? If so, I doubt 4GB will happen

They run 32 bit Windows only because they ship with 2GB of RAM. There are already some 4GB Baytrail laptops shipping with 64 bit Windows.

 

[paperwastage]

Aren't Bay Trail running 32-bit Windows? If so, I doubt 4GB will happen

They run 32 bit Windows only because they ship with 2GB of RAM. There are already some 4GB Baytrail laptops shipping with 64 bit Windows.

the Bay Trail atoms (Z37xx) which appear on hybrid tablets/laptop designs support up to 4GB ram (the Z37xxD versions are single channel and support up to 2GB ram). Microsoft only supports 32-bit Connected Standby, so you can't go 64bit yet (microsoft says support is coming soon)

there are other Bay Trail CPUs (eg Celeron branded) that support more than 4GB. i guess those don't need to sell themselves as "Connected Standby"-capable as they are more "laptop" than "tablet/smartphone" oriented

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connected_Standby

 

[quikah]

I believe 64bit connected standby is now available, or will be soon. Hp has announced 2 64bit tablets, Elitepad 1000 and Propad 600, not sure when they will be available for purchase.

Fujitsu has 4GB 32bit tablets now, but they are stupid expensive.

 

[zerogear]

They run 32 bit Windows only because they ship with 2GB of RAM. There are already some 4GB Baytrail laptops shipping with 64 bit Windows.

That, unfortunately would kill Connected Standby. 64-bit Windows doesn't have Connected Standby implementation yet.

 

[Ravynmagi]

That, unfortunately would kill Connected Standby. 64-bit Windows doesn't have Connected Standby implementation yet.

Yeah, thus the reason we see it in a few laptops but no (or maybe only 1) tablet.

I'm guessing Update 1 coming in April will have 64 bit connected standby support. And I think that is when we'll start seeing more 4GB Baytrail tablets. So I'm probably going to try to wait a bit longer before trying to buy something like a Miix 2 10 or Venue 11 Pro now.

 

[ziphnor]

I returned my ASUS T100. It just felt way too cheap, I had issues with the keyboard, and it's really hard to pick up a 10 inch tablet with a really low resolution screen and be happy with it. It was a devices with way too many compromises to meet the super budget $350 price.

Usually i don't really care about something feeling too cheap, but that low res screen is really a bitter pill to swallow. I doesn't help that its 16:10 as well ( good format for TV's, not so much for tablets IMO ).

The Lenovo Miix 2 10 looks promising. The keyboard has a fixed viewing angle, but I like that docking and undocking would be super easy-quick. However I've had a couple other budget Lenovo 2-in-1s in the past and I've been extremely disappointed with the quality of Lenovo's keyboards. And the bigger problem is it's only sold by Lenovo.com and back ordered for "greater than 5 weeks".

Here in Denmark its available from several online shops, expecting it to come in stock in a week or two (though it might not be accurate). I think i will have to wait until it shows up in a store somewhere, so i can get a feel for how the dock works etc. I really like its design, and the 1920x1200 16:10 display.

The Dell Venue 11 Pro looks nice. I tried to buy one late last year, but it was hard to find in stock. Now however I'm just not sure I want to spend $650 on a Baytrail tablet with 2GB of RAM. I think we'll be seeing some Baytrial 4GB tablets coming soon (someone mentioned Fujitsu has a business tablet out already).

If i went for the Venue 11 pro, i would probably go with the more expensive i5 option (depending on battery life) which has 4GB of memory, making it more of a laptop replacement, giving me a reason to accept the extra weight.

I think I'm going to wait a little longer for the next batch of Baytrail 2-in-1s to arrive.

Has there been any announcements on upcoming products?

 

[ziphnor]

Look into a BT keyboard with stand. If you don't need the laptop experience that can be a good compromise and give you more tablet choices. The ms one is supposedly very good, but a bit expensive. Logitech has a couple good ones also.

I guess a good BT keyboard with a stand could work, but i would probably still be interested in Windows 8.1 (non-RT) for this second tablet.

I thought the Miix 2 10 seemed pretty nice for a stand-alone tablet. Kind of a Surface with "real" windows that just happened to come with a pretty nice keyboard stand (and proper aspect ratio)

Which additional tablets should i be looking at if they dont have to be "true" hybrids?

 

[quikah]

I guess a good BT keyboard with a stand could work, but i would probably still be interested in Windows 8.1 (non-RT) for this second tablet.

I thought the Miix 2 10 seemed pretty nice for a stand-alone tablet. Kind of a Surface with "real" windows that just happened to come with a pretty nice keyboard stand (and proper aspect ratio)

Which additional tablets should i be looking at if they dont have to be "true" hybrids?

Well i guess the hp omni 10 is the only other option, pretty good, but the port placement is pretty bad. There are some up coming 10" from acer i think and some other lesser known companies. There are also several 8" which are not bad if you can go a bit smaller.

Windows tablets seem to all require some sort of compromise, none are perfect.

 

[ziphnor]

Well i guess the hp omni 10 is the only other option, pretty good, but the port placement is pretty bad. There are some up coming 10" from acer i think and some other lesser known companies. There are also several 8" which are not bad if you can go a bit smaller.

The Omni 10 also looks pretty good, it is using a faster bay trail CPU, but its also a bit heavier. I am not sure i see any big benefit over the Lenovo?

I will keep an eye on Acer. I wish there was an index over full windows tablets somewhere

8" is too small for Windows 8 if you ask me.

Windows tablets seem to all require some sort of compromise, none are perfect.

That certainly seems to be the case But my Nexus 10 is not entirely without compromise either (charge speed for one, and the screen backlight is not that great).

 

[paperwastage]

The Omni 10 also looks pretty good, it is using a faster bay trail CPU, but its also a bit heavier. I am not sure i see any big benefit over the Lenovo?

I will keep an eye on Acer. I wish there was an index over full windows tablets somewhere

8" is too small for Windows 8 if you ask me.



That certainly seems to be the case But my Nexus 10 is not entirely without compromise either (charge speed for one, and the screen backlight is not that great).

Oh, forgot to mention the charge speeds for these devices as well.

The Asus t100 and dell venue 8pro charges via microUSB. 5V@2A = 10W. The battery is 31W. Figuring 70% efficiency charging, 7W would take at least 4 hours to charge. Real life, I think it takes 5-7 hours to charge my t100. Longer if you use the device when charging. Of course with an 8 hour battery life, I just charge it overnight

Not sure about the dell 11. I believe the HP omni offers a separate faster charger.

 

[ziphnor]

Wrt. Acer i guess this might be their entry (Acer Aspire Switch 10):

http://liliputing.com/2014/03/acer-aspire-switch-10-is-a-3-in-1-windows-tablet.html

 

[quikah]

The Omni 10 also looks pretty good, it is using a faster bay trail CPU, but its also a bit heavier. I am not sure i see any big benefit over the Lenovo?

I will keep an eye on Acer. I wish there was an index over full windows tablets somewhere

Bigger battery and faster CPU are the main pluses of the HP.

The Lenovo is a bit angular, might be a bit more difficult to hold. HP price is slightly lower, but that would be a wash if you get a BT keyboard, though the HP has a 32GB option for even cheaper (not a good idea though IMO).

Not quite an index, but this site has been a good source of info on Windows tablets: http://www.umpcportal.com/

 

[Ravynmagi]

I'm tempted to just buy the damn Surface 2 at $450, get a $130 keyboard, and just be done with it. Seems like all the Windows partners keep screwing stuff up. And for me I just what a 2-in-1 for light tasks like web surfing, email, video watching, Windows RT can do this stuff.

Not a fan of spending $580 on a Windows RT device, but just not really seeing anything much better, unless I keep waiting.

 

[Ravynmagi]

I hung out at the Microsoft Store for a couple hours. I looked at several 2-in-1s....

$1000 Lenovo Thinkpad Yoga
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store...en-2-in-1---Intel-Core-i5/productID.288728400

$1000 HP Specter 13 X2
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store...1nr-x2-Touchscreen-2-in-1/productID.289653400

$800 ASUS T300LA
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store...-US51T-Touchscreen-2-in-1/productID.295783900

$1130 Microsoft Surface Pro 2 128GB (with TouchType Cover 2)
http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/Surface-Pro-2/productID.286866600


I dismissed the Lenovo ThinkPad Yoga pretty quick. I've played with the Yoga 2 Pro at Best Buy, however the ThinkPad version is styled after the boxy ThinkPad line and just seems rather large and clunky for an 11 inch tablet. And I hate the pointer nub on the keyboard. But I'm sure it's designed more about being a sturdy durable business machine than to looks. Wish they had some Yoga 2 Pros though.

The ASUS T300LA was my favorite of the bunch. The tablet portion is great, it's all aluminum, has nice grip, full sized SS USB port on the tablet, display has very nice looking colors. Though was weird both speakers are on the right side. The keyboard dock has a great docking mechanism, magnets guide it in and it clicks in and releases with ease. The keyboard feels great to type on (was my favorite) and even works wirelessly if the tablet isn't docked. The dock however also had a big problem, it's light and so does not allow the tablet to tilt back very far. I thought the viewing angle was very poor and this alone was a deal killer for me, this is a huge annoyance for me personally. Also the keyboard has to be charged separately and has no backlighting.

The HP Specter... Lots of concerns with this thing. First the tablet is made of plastic and it slips a little in my hand, enough to annoying after a few seconds. Auto rotate didn't work in either display model, but the rep did say it supports auto rotate. The colors didn't look as good. No USB port on the tablet. And to the keyboard dock, the docking mechanism is ugly and more difficult to use. There is a thin piece of bezel near the dock port that has broken off on the display unit (and probably would on mine too). The keyboard didn't feel as nice as the ASUS, but still felt good. The keyboard has a secondary battery and boosts the overall battery life to 9 hours (think the ASUS was 7.5). And thanks to the extra weight in the dock it allows for the screen to tilt back much more generously than the ASUS. It's kinda like everything I loved about the ASUS I hated on the HP and vice versa.

The Surface Pro 2 is a really nice machine. But in this price range, it seems stupid to even consider the 64GB model. And the 128GB model with keyboard (can't buy this without the keyboard of course) and it's just getting a bit too pricey and it doesn't even include Office and the battery life is mediocre.


I wish they had the Lenovo Miix 2 at the Microsoft Store (seems to be scarce in the US) or the Dell Venue 11 Pro (not sure why they didn't have this there).

 

[Ravynmagi]

But what I ended up bringing home was the Surface 2 32GB for $580 with the Type Cover 2. I tried everything I could to find a good Baytrail or lower end Haswell 2-in-1 to love. But just could not find anything that fit for under $1000. The ASUS T300LA was damn close. I dunno, if I find the Surface 2 isn't enough, maybe I'll reconsider the T300LA.

For now, I think the Surface 2 should really fit my needs. It's got a nice 1080p display, apparently one of the brightest screens as well, so will work well outdoors. I love having a full used USB port on a tablet, also a mDP port too. It's light and gets 10 hours of battery life. And includes Office. Almost everything I do on my laptop is either through the web browser or Office anyway, so I think this should be fine. At least I'm telling myself that now. We'll see. It came with a completely dead battery though, so I've been waiting for it to charge up.

 

[ziphnor]

Interesting how different the prices you have in the US are from the ones in Denmark (relatively between products, i know our prices are higher in general). We have:

Asus Transformer T100 at ~$600
Lenovo Miix 10 2 64gb at ~$635
Surface 2 64gb at ~$750 (without cover)
No HP Omni 10 available yet.

I cannot justify the Surface 2 against the Lenovo, the Lenovo has a better screen (16:10 at 1920x1200 is a big improvement for me, i hate 16:9 for tablets). At 680g (though i found different numbers online) its also heavier than the Miix 10 2 at 576g. And of course the big minus for the Surface 2 is that it runs RT.

 

[Ravynmagi]

If we had the Miix 2 10 available in the US I might be looking at it more.

I ended up buying the Venue 11 Pro 5130 (Baytrail model) today from Amazon. They had it for $458, so jumped at that price. Finding the keyboard was a pain in the ass though, but eventually bought it from Rakuten for $140. These prices are only slightly more than what I paid for the Surface 2 and it's keyboard ($450 and $130).

Hopefully be Thursday or Friday I can have a Surface 2 vs Venue 11 Pro smack down and see which I like more and which I'm voting off the island. Though I'm probably an idiot for spending $600+ on either of these with the new 4GB Baytrails probably coming out in a month, haha.

Surface 2. Pros: High build quality with "industrial design" and magnesium body. Compact form factor with keyboard. 10 hour batter life in tablet. Very bright screen. Backlit keyboard. Possibly better viewing angle (two angle kickstand).

Venue 11 Pro. Pros: Clamshell keyboard, easier to use on lap. Can run x86 applications. Digitizer may not be very good, but at least it has one and I already own a pen for it.

Kinda worried about the build quality on the Dell, it's in the lower price range where corners are often cut. And if the tablet can tilt back far enough in the display.


I know it seems crazy to pick the Surface 2. It can't run x86 apps and there are lots of similarly priced options (and a few cheaper) that can. But it feels like a high quality device without any corner cutting.