Best camcorder for a few hundred?

[Dulanic]

Did this have to be turned into a how to use a iPhone for video and anti apple thread? I appreciate the help but I did clarify I wanted a camcorder not a phone a couple times now.

 

[Kaido]

Did this have to be turned into a how to use a iPhone for video and anti apple thread? I appreciate the help but I did clarify I wanted a camcorder not a phone a couple times now.

Agreed. Back on topic:

While you are in a waiting pattern for the new cameras to drop, this is a good time to design your post-production workflow. The biggest thing I tell people with doing digital video these days is to have an A-Z workflow nailed down. If you want a basic free one, I would recommend using Extensoft's Free Video Converter, which says it can do MTS natively (I've done other formats just fine in it) and DVD Flick, if you plan on burning a DVD copy of the video. Everything else you can just export through Extensoft (for Youtube, Vimeo, Facebook, Email, etc.).

Another question to answer is storage, both on the camera and on the computer. I like to have at least two memory cards - a second one for rollover and as a backup just in case the first one breaks or I lose it. Memory cards are pretty cheap these days, and a lot of cameras also offer on-camera flash or hard drive-based memory in addition to a memory card slot. After that is computer storage - do you want to backup each memory card? Do you want to do an offsite backup? HD footage can quickly fill up your drive. Even on my iPhone, a 2-hour shoot is about 20 gigs of video files. So it's important to figure out where the files what go, what will be backed up from the memory card, what will be backed up from your computer as part of your backup strategy, etc.

 

[JohnnyRebel]

Did this have to be turned into a how to use a iPhone for video and anti apple thread? I appreciate the help but I did clarify I wanted a camcorder not a phone a couple times now.

Hey! It's not all about you!!!! :biggrin:

Sorry.

+1 on the workflow.

 

[CuriousMike]

Panasonic TM90; it's been on sale as low as ~$330 during xmas.
Unfortunately it's showing up as discontinued on BH, so that might be artificially driving prices up?

 

[Kaido]

+1 on the workflow.

Yeah, I know about 500 people with camcorders, and about 3 who actually do anything with them. One of the big things to realize is that while you'll record 3 hours of a soccer game and 2 hours of your kid's recitals, no one actually wants to watch that - so you have to edit it down into a 5-minute highlight video with music to put on Youtube/Email/Facebook, otherwise people lose interest real fast. And thus most footage never gets viewed and just sits there because no one has their workflow down. So it's all about workflow :awe:

 

[Cattykit]

Well, that's not quite the whole picture. 99% of software doesn't support that feature set, and you should also note that some additional investment is required here:

1. Nvidia CUDA card: $100 (?) to $600
2. Adobe Premiere Pro: $600

Assuming he doesn't have a CUDA/Fermi/whatever-is-required right now. And if his camera budget is $600-$700, that's a pretty hefty chunk to add, for another $600 for software - plus the learning curve for professional-grade software. Most software doesn't have native AVCHD editing like that, although I'm sure it will only grow from here! I am glad to hear that you can do 3 or 4 effects without slowdown, that's a HUGE improvement over traditional AVCHD editing and would really make a difference for speed.

GT 240 1GB DDR5 version is enough to take advantage of that 10x GPU boost. Last time I checked, it's around $80.
If the price of Premiere Pro is a concern, Vegas and Final Cut X, and one more NLE I forgot the name of is there. Though not as sophisticated as Ppro, it does offer OpenCL boost.

 

[Kaido]

GT 240 1GB DDR5 version is enough to take advantage of that 10x GPU boost. Last time I checked, it's around $80.
If the price of Premiere Pro is a concern, Vegas and Final Cut X, and one more NLE I forgot the name of is there. Though not as sophisticated as Ppro, it does offer OpenCL boost.

Dang, I need to upgrade my 8800GTX :awe:

I use Vegas 9 at work. It was great because we have an AVCHD HD cam and it could do basic cuts natively. Such a huge timesaver at the time! I'm really glad to hear you can add multiple effects without transcoding in the newer apps - that's really good progress. And frankly I'm amazed at the new iMovie/FCPX...I don't know what kind of magic voodoo they use to make it go that fast, but it works wonders!

 

[radhak]

The biggest thing I tell people with doing digital video these days is to have an A-Z workflow nailed down. If you want a basic free one, I would recommend using Extensoft's Free Video Converter, which says it can do MTS natively (I've done other formats just fine in it) and DVD Flick, if you plan on burning a DVD copy of the video. Everything else you can just export through Extensoft (for Youtube, Vimeo, Facebook, Email, etc.).

Yeah, I know about 500 people with camcorders, and about 3 who actually do anything with them. One of the big things to realize is that while you'll record 3 hours of a soccer game and 2 hours of your kid's recitals, no one actually wants to watch that - so you have to edit it down into a 5-minute highlight video with music to put on Youtube/Email/Facebook, otherwise people lose interest real fast. And thus most footage never gets viewed and just sits there because no one has their workflow down. So it's all about workflow :awe:

Now that you've described my situation so well , how about giving us some more detail on that workflow? What do you do first, then next, et al? (Or at least, recommend as a workflow?). Do you convert to another format, edit to smaller size, save all versions, etc?

Personally, I've not found MTS format to be limiting : it uploads to Youtube very easily. But I would really like to streamline this whole process.

 

[Kaido]

Now that you've described my situation so well , how about giving us some more detail on that workflow? What do you do first, then next, et al? (Or at least, recommend as a workflow?). Do you convert to another format, edit to smaller size, save all versions, etc?

Personally, I've not found MTS format to be limiting : it uploads to Youtube very easily. But I would really like to streamline this whole process.

There are a lot of ways to go about it. Mac or PC, freeware or payware, natively edit or transcode first. Here is a sample workflow:

1. Shoot video onto memory chip
2. Insert memory chip into USB 2.0 card reader on PC
3. Clone memory card to an ISO file using ImgBurn
4. Rename ISO with the day's date, memory card number (A, B, C, etc.) & log in an Excel file with a description (ex. 11Jan2012A - Baby's First Steps
5. Mount the ISO as a folder with Pismo File Mount
5. Use VoltaicHD to transcode the original footage into AVI
6. Import transcoded footage into your video editor program
7. Edit the video (cut clips, apply effects, music, titles, etc.)
8. Export to a master HD file (like a 1080p MP4)
9. Use Handbrake to export to your final output formats (Youtube, Facebook, Email, DVD, Vimeo, Bluray, etc.)

A lot of people use MPEG Streamclip as a free alternative to VoltaicHD. As mentioned earlier, some apps like Extensoft, Premiere, and Vegas can edit MTS files natively, so you don't need to transcode. DVD Flick lets you easily make basic DVD movies from video clips. Not everyone wants to archive all of their original footage, so maybe just drop the clips you want to keep in a folder, instead of archiving an image copy of the entire memory stick to a folder with a table of contents.

There's a lot of variations. It really depends on what you want to do. You can go nuts and be super-organized and use high-end stuff and make a Bluray HD ultra-awesome movie, or you can just keep footage scattered in random folders and use free apps and just upload to Youtube. There's all kinds of methods to follow.

The one above is similar to what I do...I archive everything I shoot so that I can find it later, then transcode into ProRes for editing in Final Cut Pro, do my post-production stuff (editing, soundtrack, color grading, visual effects, etc.), then export a master copy. Once I have the master copy, then I export to whatever I want - Youtube, DVD, etc. And not every project is like that - if it's a quick video of my kiddo for grandma, then I'll just plug in the camera, pull off the video files & edit, export to a small movie, and email a copy.

The key is (1) figuring out what you want to do on a regular basis, (2) getting the right software to do what you want to do, and (3) installing it & learning it so that you know how to use it. Most of the time I shoot family & friends for fun and just send it straight to Facebook from my iPhone, maybe with a little iMovie editing on the phone itself. Voila, done. A lot of people get stuck on #3 - they'll invest in a nice editing package, but because it's such a bear to learn how to use, they never really do anything with it.

You just have to figure out what you're comfortable with and go from there. Windows Movie Maker, Extensoft Free Video Converter, and iMovie are free. MPEG Streamclip, Pismo File Mount, ImgBurn, DVD Flick, and Handbrake are also free. They are all fairly easy to learn how to use and will give you nice results if you take the time to practice a bit. It really just depends on what you want to do, what your budget is, and how much time & effort you want to invest in learning new software.

 

[radhak]

Holy cow - that's a great level of detail! Thanks for the effort and time, Kaido! I think you have provided enough for me to be confident of getting this beast under control! Thanks again.

 

[Kaido]

Holy cow - that's a great level of detail! Thanks for the effort and time, Kaido! I think you have provided enough for me to be confident of getting this beast under control! Thanks again.

Np. My recommendation (if you plan on keeping your footage) is to just make a folder on your computer and dump all of the ISO's in there with an Excel file. That way you can always go back in and get old clips as you need them (right-click, mount ISO as folder with Pismo File Mount), and you can use a freeware MTS editor like Extensoft if you don't want to transcode before you edit.

Otherwise movie projects can get out of control pretty quickly...lost footage, files all over the place, etc. This is a pretty simple system and gives you a complete, readily-accessible archive with just about zero effort. All you have to do is make an ISO of the memory stick and type a 1-line description into your Excel file and you have a nice footage log

 

[radhak]

How does the ISO image help ? Smaller size because of compression?

< Dulanic - sorry for taking your thread off-topic; I forgot this was not my thread... >

 

[alent1234]

Did this have to be turned into a how to use a iPhone for video and anti apple thread? I appreciate the help but I did clarify I wanted a camcorder not a phone a couple times now.

i have 2 kids and will never buy a camcorder again. iphone or just use a good android phone since they all do 1080p recording.

when my first was born i had a kodak camera that i also used for video. also had an ancient tape based camcorder i used a bit. when you have kids the last thing you want to do is carry extra gear around.

your phone is always in your pocket. unless you keep the camcorder on the table always charged up you will miss a lot of cool videos. same with photos. if you play specs and get a dslr for the quality you will miss A LOT of cool photos just because a phone is almost always in your pocket and you can pull it out and take a picture in a few seconds

most of my videos of kids were taken spur of the moment and would never have been taken if i had to go find my camcorder or kodak camera, turn it on ,etc

 

[Kaido]

How does the ISO image help ? Smaller size because of compression?

< Dulanic - sorry for taking your thread off-topic; I forgot this was not my thread... >

Such is life on a public forum :biggrin:

It's the same as making an ISO of a CD or DVD disc...it makes a 1:1 copy of the contents of the memory stick. On PC, I use ImgBurn to make the ISO, then Pismo File Mount to mount it as a read-only folder (some people use Daemon Tools or similar, but I've found that Pismo is faster - right-click, Quick Mount, boom - shows up as a folder). That way, I can't accidentally delete the contents, and I get a full copy of everything that was on the memory stick, all in a nice single file (some programs are finicky about using files not in the original MTS folder structure).

It's just for convenience, really. You could dump them all in a folder if you wanted. You could zip them up. I like ISO because it's one file to keep (and not a zip that requires unzipping), so it moves from drive to drive easily & you get the entire original structure, and it mounts quickly for pulling files out. Plus it's PC/Mac/Linux compatible and you can use SHA-1 to verify the integrity. And I've found I have better luck with ISO than ZIP files for large memory stick copies.

 

[Kaido]

Did this have to be turned into a how to use a iPhone for video and anti apple thread? I appreciate the help but I did clarify I wanted a camcorder not a phone a couple times now.

i have 2 kids and will never buy a camcorder again. iphone or just use a good android phone since they all do 1080p recording.

when my first was born i had a kodak camera that i also used for video. also had an ancient tape based camcorder i used a bit. when you have kids the last thing you want to do is carry extra gear around.

your phone is always in your pocket. unless you keep the camcorder on the table always charged up you will miss a lot of cool videos. same with photos. if you play specs and get a dslr for the quality you will miss A LOT of cool photos just because a phone is almost always in your pocket and you can pull it out and take a picture in a few seconds

most of my videos of kids were taken spur of the moment and would never have been taken if i had to go find my camcorder or kodak camera, turn it on ,etc

I've found it's the same case with my 6-month-old. I get more photos from my phone (8 megapixels in my pocket & "good enough" quality) than anything. But the OP specifically wants a camcorder.

OP, would you be open to a point & shoot camera that has video features (out of curiosity)? The video quality is really good on some of the newer ones, and a few out now have an ultrawide 24mm lens, so you can fit a lot in the frame (good for interiors/kids/etc.). There's a brand-new, very tiny Canon ELPH that does 1080p video with a 24mm lens for $249 MSRP:

http://usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/digital_cameras/powershot_elph_110_hs

Also a new feature on this one is that you can zoom while recording (has a basic 5x zoom). So if you happen to be looking for something a little more pocket-sized, there are some very good options available these days.

 

[Dulanic]

I have a good camera already. I get the point I can use my phone for many quick shots and videos. I will do so but I also want a camcorder for more planned events also.

 

[Kaido]

I have a good camera already. I get the point I can use my phone for many quick shots and videos. I will do so but I also want a camcorder for more planned events also.

So really the next question is editing software. Do you want something basic (chop up some clips, add a soundtrack and maybe a title, done) or something more advanced (color correction, filters, multiple audio tracks, more advanced editing tools)?

 

[Cattykit]

Kaido's workflow seems very complex. Here's what I do.

1. Copy contents from memory card to a local folder (sorted by date)
2. Tag individual files accordingly using keywords.
3. Edit natively without transcoding.
4. Export via built-in encoder or x.264(handbrake, megui, whatever) through media-server.

It's as simple as editing a photo.

BTW, Kaido, GTX 8800GTX should be enough to take advantage of Ppro's GPU boost fully. All you need is around 100 cuda cores, 8xxMB of RAM (crucial, it won't work if you have less amount), and certain memory bandwidth (as long as it's more than GT 240 GDDR5 128bit one. If less, you still get boost but not 10x.)

 

[Kaido]

2. Tag individual files accordingly using keywords.

What do you use for tagging, native Windows?

BTW, Kaido, GTX 8800GTX should be enough to take advantage of Ppro's GPU boost fully. All you need is around 100 cuda cores, 8xxMB of RAM (crucial, it won't work if you have less amount), and certain memory bandwidth (as long as it's more than GT 240 GDDR5 128bit one. If less, you still get boost but not 10x.)

Eh, I'm due for an upgrade anyway. Ever since playing Portal 2, the GPU overheats all the time and gives me crazy screen issues :biggrin:

 

[Todd33]

I picked up the Canon HF-200 from Costco, it came with 8GB and a case for $289.

I wanted to try it out before I committed. I only recored a few minutes of video, my thoughts so far:

1. Small, light and feels very fragile.
2. LCD is small and the touch controls are very picky.
3. Video seemed good at first, but after I got it on the computer it was kind of aliased, but it was not on high mode, maybe 7Mb mode.
4. Battery life, this is the killer IMO. 71 minutes fully charged. That is pathetic, my old Sony miniDV camera could go like 3-5 hours with the extended battery.
5. No view finder, this is what kills the battery most likely.
6. software seems very poor. It continuously says "not responding" unless you wait a bit. I'm not sure what it is doing, it does it when you first start it up with no buttons pushed.
7. I don't like the way every time you hit record you get a new file. Is there anyway to make these cameras append the video so you do get stuck with dozens of small videos?

Anyhow, it is impressive for what you get under $300, but not sure I'm sold yet. I need to get some video outside in day time with higher quality and then watch it on my HDTV.

 

[Hogan773]

i have 2 kids and will never buy a camcorder again. iphone or just use a good android phone since they all do 1080p recording.

when my first was born i had a kodak camera that i also used for video. also had an ancient tape based camcorder i used a bit. when you have kids the last thing you want to do is carry extra gear around.

your phone is always in your pocket. unless you keep the camcorder on the table always charged up you will miss a lot of cool videos. same with photos. if you play specs and get a dslr for the quality you will miss A LOT of cool photos just because a phone is almost always in your pocket and you can pull it out and take a picture in a few seconds

most of my videos of kids were taken spur of the moment and would never have been taken if i had to go find my camcorder or kodak camera, turn it on ,etc

Yeah but iPhone or Android doesn't have a real zoom, nor do they have image stabilization. They can do OK for many things and I agree they are in the pocket all the time, but no way you can say their video quality equals a good camcorder. I personally have a Sony Hx9V which is a nice little camera, fits in the pocket too, and an awesome camcorder all in one.