Best 17inch Flat Panel LCD for Games/DVDs ???

[azkiwi]

<< Seems odd that some people see no ghosting at all running some newer TFT's (i.e. Samsung 180T, ViewSonic VA800, some Planar's). >>



Which leads me to believe that a certain amount of this is user preference / pickiness. Some people see no bothersome ghosting on older IPS technology screens with slower response times - such as some Compaqs, Eizo, Flatron and others - while others find the new MVA screens (Viewsonic, Iiyama) with much faster response times unacceptable. I think most of these 'fast' screens come from the same manufacturer (Fujitsu) so it can only come down to implemetation and graphics cards. But it seems as though some users are just highly discriminating. For $1000+ I might be too.

Does anyone have any complaints aside from fast action gaming? Does anyone feel they would rather have a CRT for all the things they do besides gaming?

Billhod - I read somewhere that adjusting the scan rate just a few Hz can have significant effects on some performance - worth a try anyway. LMK if you decide to pitch it...

 

[billhod]

azkiwi,

I'm not sure how to adjust the scan rate when using the DVI interface on my Visiontek Ti 500. It seems locked in at 60Hz no matter what. Interestingly enough, even when I adjust the screen resolution via the control panel to a lower resolution (and the monitor is clearly scaling to a lower resolution), the OSD on the monitor still says 1280x1024 at 60Hz. Also note that there are limited adjustments you can make to the monitor (or any LCD) when in DVI mode. Just contrast/brightness and color adjust, really.

You are probably right about it coming down to individual preferences, but I just don't see how anyone could think that this amount of "bluriness" is acceptable when playing a fast FPS. It all seems pretty plug-and-play, so I'm not sure that there is much that is tweakable.

I'd love for someone to tell me that I just need to adjust so-and-so and it will be acceptable. It's really a shame--this is the brightest, clearest monitor I've seen. Text looks fantastic. But I didn't spend $1,100+ to go down in quality for a critical app. Any suggestions would be highly appreciated.

I've decided to return it by Friday unless I learn of a fix...

Thanks,
Bill

 

[IKnowKungFu]

guys, check out the brand new Solarism LM 1711 at solarism.com. This is a new 17'' model that has a 20ms/20ms response time. The 15'' model was the brightest lcd available and firingsquad gave it a pretty good score at 88. They said it has the least ghosting out of all lcds available. Perhaps this is the lcd that we've all been waiting for. any comments?

 

[azkiwi]

billhod,

let me say right off - I don't have an LCD, but WANT ONE and have been reading everything I can find about them, which sounds just about like you - so I'm shooting in the dark here. It sounds, at least superficially, as if there is something amiss when your OSD does not report resolutions accurately. Have you tried Viewsonic tech support or Geforce to make sure that is normal?
Also did you try running the VG191 with your old analog video card? It might not be as crisp, but it would be interesting to see if that changed anything else...

 

[themadmonk]

The Envision 7100e is good.

 

[azkiwi]

Note that both the Envision and the Solarism are analog only...

 

[themadmonk]

Nothing wrong with analog LCDs.

 

[billhod]

azkiwi,

I initially tried hooking the VG191 up to my old GF3, and noticed the ghosting. I thought that it might be the analog output, so I picked up the Visiontek GF3 Ti 500 to use its DVI output. The picture was much crisper (DVI is definitely the only way to go), but the ghosting was only somewhat better.

I did send an email to Viewsonic tech support last night, so hopefully I'll get a response soon. You are right that it is weird that my OSD reports the wrong resolution. I really hope that it is a defective monitor and/or a configuration issue. It is great to look at. I REALLY don't want to go back to a CRT!

Bill

 

[GarthMan]

I've noticed that for those people that don't see bluriness in fast action games (i.e. Q3A) are typically running non-GF3 video cards (i.e. Jetfire's TNT, Radeons). People that do typically have fast video cards (i.e. GF3 derivatives).

Billhod, an idea would be to slow down your vid card a bit. Some ideas would be a) turn vsync back ON (this will also eliminate tearing - which itself would cause ghosting) and b) turn on hardware AA (i.e. quincunux). Who knows, this might fix some of the blurriness problems and you'll get a prettier picture to boot!

~g

 

[IKnowKungFu]

the solarism 17'' LM 1711 has both dvi and analog inputs.

 

[billhod]

Well, I heard back from ViewSonic tech support regarding my problems with my VG191:

"Hello,

Our flat panels are really not designed for gaming. So, if the panel does not
have any problems in other applications, it is probably not going to work well
with games. Games want higher refresh rates and LCD panels are designed to run
at 60Hz.

As for the lower resolution switch, if you are still using the digital input,
your graphics card will typically only display the native resolution of the
monitor. You'll need to check with the card manufacturer since the monitor will
only report what it is being asked to display by the video card.

Regards,
[snip]"

I'm really not sure how to take this. I think he's saying "too bad." Although, this doesn't solve the mystery why others find LCDs with similar (or worse) specs OK for gaming, and I find it unacceptable.

Anyway, back the VG191 goes. Unless I hear (and see with my own eyes) of a new flat panel display that really works for games, I guess I'm sticking with CRTs. OK, anybody know what's the best CRT under $2000?

Bill

 

[Jenova314]

my brother recently got the newer Planar PV174 rotatable 17.4" LCD panel. i have to say that i'm very disappointed especially after seeing the specs. 400:1 contrast ratio, 220cd/m^2 brightness, 25ms response time. putting it side by side with my 17" iiyama vision master pro was a real eye-opener. while the text was slightly sharper, the color and ghosting killed it for the planar. i'm going to go out on a limb here and argue that the desktop is the best arena for testing ghosting. i just slowly dragged a window around and observed the black-on-white text and the ghosting was very very noticeable. it comes in the form of a flicker (although obviously LCDs don't really flicker) and the infamous blur. put it side-by-side with your CRT and see what i mean. also, even with its 400:1 contrast ratio, the color was no match for my iiyama. the blue on win2k was much too bland, whereas my iiyama's colors were very rich.

so in the end, i've decided against buying a pair of flat panels for myself until the next generation comes out.

for those of you who are wondering, i did use the DVI input on the planar with an ATI Radeon AIW, and then tried it with the analog output on my secondary Creative Labs TNT2 PCI to no avail.

 

[akkim]

I have the 17" Dell 1702fp and 2 15" Dell 1503fp's. The 1702fp is the most crisp and clear picture I have ever seens. It looks great it games too. It is noticably better than the 1503fp's, and I would imagine it's one of the best 17" LCD displays around.

 

[azkiwi]

Jenova: akkim points out that the next generation of LCDs is out - its represented by the Dell and Viewsonic offerings. Do you mean you are waiting for next next generation? Also the Dell has a finer pixel pitch than the Viewsonic I think..

Anybody out there had Dell LCD's next to decent CRTs for direct comparisons?

 

[akkim]

i had the 1702 sandwiched inbetween 2 Dell branded trinitrons. It blew them out of the water in all respects except for the slight lack of smoothness in a few games. It's still less pronounced than in other lcd's i've seen, but a disadvantage none the less.

 

[GarthMan]

I finally found a good LCD at my local CompUSA running CS which gave me an opportunity to do a little demo. The LCD was a HP with approx 40ms response time. In CS, the colors were a little bland, but, suprisingly, I didn't notice any substantial blurriness at first! I had to get up to a table real close and swing around to finally be able to notice blurriness were it wouldn't exist on my CRT. In other words, if you *really* look for it, you'll find it. Most casual gamers wouldn't notice it was there, so they wouldn't notice it at all.

It seems it comes down to mostly preference. LCD's with 25ms response time will satisfy the general user (and most Users get used to the small amount of bluriness). Extreme gamers will probably want to wait for the next iteration due this quarter.

There is a new generation coming out this quarter, compliments of Mitsubishi/NEC. The technology is called "FFD" and is designed specifically to deal with the blurriness problem.

Extremetech has a couple of articles on the subject, most notably http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,s%3D1021%26a%3D15016,00.asp. Check it out. I'm hopeful that this technology will finally bring LCD's to near CRT levels.

~g

 

[azkiwi]

<< The technology can reduce intra-grayscale response to less than 20 milliseconds, with some taking less than 10 milliseconds, Mitsubishi said in a statement. FFD manages to lower response time by using frame memory and a lookup panel. The display, which is aimed at LCD televisions and multimedia displays, will sample in the third quarter of this year priced at US$1,000 per unit, with volume production expected in the fourth quarter, the company said. >>



here is the link

So a bit of a difference here - perhaps later in the year and no cheaper than what we currently have. This is not making it any easier to decide on a flat panel....not sure I want to wait for a year which is probably how long it will take 'til there is more than one model to choose from....

 

[azkiwi]

this seems like more of the current technology:




<< A unit of Samsung Electronics announced a new technology called Patterned Vertical Alignment (PVA) for its TFT-LCD displays as large as 24 inches (diagonal). Displays incorporating this technology can show full-frame-rate video due to their fast 25 mSec response time. This technology offers a wide conical viewing angle of 170 degrees; a high contrast ratio exceeding 500:1; 65 percent color saturation; and a high level of screen brightness, according to Samsung Semiconductor. Samsung has applied PVA to it?s LTM240W1 24-inch WUXGA-resolution display. Next to be equipped with the PVA feature is a 21.3-inch UXGA-resolution display, the LTM213U4, which is scheduled for release in August. >>

 

[GarthMan]

Azkiwi,

Good article! Note that it's dated "IDG News Service 6/7/01" so I think they meant 3rd quarter last year. Per Extremetech, we should hopefully see them at retail channels first quater <i>this</i> year.

Per Extremetech the "products using this technology are not expected to reach the market until later in 2002." Hopefully in the next few months, but it's coming.

~g

 

[azkiwi]

<< Per Extremetech the "products using this technology are not expected to reach the market until later in 2002." Hopefully in the next few months, but it's coming. >>



GarthMan - thanks for pointing out the date on that article!

So here's the crux; in thinking about how most new tech gets introduced I anticipate introduction of perhaps a couple of models by one manufacturer followed by others in the succeeding months assuming price / performace points meet expectations. If its really good other manufacturers follow promptly but that still means at least six to twelve months from now before there is real choice and price competition.

I think I'm going to go for a Dell (something I never thought I would say).

 

[badga]

not happy to hear jenovas comments about the Planar PC174. I broke down and ordered one last week from Dell but of course only today do they tell me that it is out of stock. I was hoping it might clear the 19" behemoth CRT off my desk but if it is going to make my sad FPS skills worse it is either going back or will be driven by second computer as a surf station. I have played Q3a, Urban Terror and MOH:AA on my toshiba laptop and found it an unplayable experince but was counting on the advances in the desktop designs to improve things. Does anybody know the specs (response time, etc) on the average laptop screen as used in Tosh and Dell GF2go equipped lappys? I'll post FPS results and impressions when the panel shows up.

b

 

[GarthMan]

Azkiwi: Nothing but good buzz on the Dell 2000FP (even checking the google news groups). The only thing that scares me is the 1600x1200 resolution (and I thought 1280x1024 was getting progressive these days!).

If you get it, *definitely* share your experiences with it!

(Hmmm, if Dell drops the price to $1229 again, I think I may have to consider...)

 

[Jenova314]

<< Jenova: akkim points out that the next generation of LCDs is out - its represented by the Dell and Viewsonic offerings. Do you mean you are waiting for next next generation? Also the Dell has a finer pixel pitch than the Viewsonic I think.. >>



i meant the generation that will bring sub-15ms response and maybe something like 500+:1 constrast ratio like samsung screens, and 300+cd/m^2 brightness mentioned in the previous posts. i think my brother has the Viewsonic VG175... and i'm also fairly disappointed in that monitor as well. however, i don't know if you would wanna let that bother you, since i've been to be very selective of monitors. i think it'll be okay for most people.

 

[azkiwi]

The VG171 may be from the previous technology group (pre-Pixelworks and MVA). The VG191 already has 500:1 contrast, 25ms response time and brightness approaching 300 if I recall. So while the difference from 25 - 15ms response time is real, it only affects those whose main criteria in a monitor is high performance fast video.

Of course, I'm just quoting spec's here - I haven't seen either, and a little first person experience is worth all the specs in the world.

 

[Jenova314]

<< The VG171 may be from the previous technology group (pre-Pixelworks and MVA). >>



i assume you weren't talking about the one i saw, cuz my brother has the VG175.