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Bernie Sanders Courts Black Voters Anew. But an Obama Reference Stings.

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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,633
3,433
126
This #bothsides nonsense gets so old. It is not both sides, modern American conservatism has gone insane.

If you think neither side is willing to think rationally about issues, name three issues and let’s look at what each side thinks.
How about nuclear energy, vaccinations, and GMO foods. ;) Maybe cell phone radiation too.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,633
3,433
126
There’s a generational poverty but racism isn’t what’s holding people back any longer. A poor black kid is afforded as much chance as a poor white kid, not much. Are the poor whites in trailer parks and decrepit housing who don’t get good educations or healthy food and live in constant fear of no money also the victims of racism?

I can’t help but think those of you that cry racism the loudest live in pretty well to do, non diverse areas.
In a competitive society the goal is to win and feel superior to losers. This translates into the notion that the rich deserve to be rich because they earned it and the poor deserve to be poor because they don't have what it takes. But who wins and loses is based on the nature of the system and in our society it's who has the money. If you have money you're a winner. So our culture is sick because how much money you have can't solve the problem of unconscious self hate. Millionaires feel as worthless as everybody else but they can waste their lives dancing from distraction to distraction that money buys. The winners in life are those who take joy simply in being alive. One owns the universe when one wants nothing. So it is the feeling of poverty that makes one poor. We have then the rich who fear to lose respect if many many succeed, and the poor who don't want anybody to succeed for fear of being left behind.
 
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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,750
20,152
136
There’s a generational poverty but racism isn’t what’s holding people back any longer. A poor black kid is afforded as much chance as a poor white kid, not much. Are the poor whites in trailer parks and decrepit housing who don’t get good educations or healthy food and live in constant fear of no money also the victims of racism?

I can’t help but think those of you that cry racism the loudest live in pretty well to do, non diverse areas.
Empirical research indicates this is untrue and black people face significantly larger challenges above and beyond anything having to do with poverty.

For example: (one of oh so many)
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

This is one of the big problems we have with fighting racism, lots of people simply claim it’s no longer a problem due to a basic ignorance of the facts. So repeat after me: racism is holding black people back.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,633
3,433
126
Empirical research indicates this is untrue and black people face significantly larger challenges above and beyond anything having to do with poverty.

For example: (one of oh so many)
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html

This is one of the big problems we have with fighting racism, lots of people simply claim it’s no longer a problem due to a basic ignorance of the facts. So repeat after me: racism is holding black people back.
Yes, so true, but why is this so? Racism is a phenomenon created by self hate. Racism is just one form of hatred of the other, no intention to minimize its evil intended by this. All hate is self hate. Self hate is the product of being put down and threatened for moral deviationas children, not conforming to whatever the insane moral standards are and whatever the threats of the withdrawal of physical care or loss of love come with that. All of this is applied by comparison of one person to another, why can’t you be like Johnny, etc. and completion to be him. If you conform you can win and be accepted. This threat and intimidation creates fear, the fear of being other or those describable as other by comparison. The fear of being different causes hatred of difference and difference is the product of comparison.

The fear of what happened to us when we stepped out of line is what gives lines emotional power. It creates the emotional need to be better. Racism in American history has been that white is better and black is bad, a lie made possible by self hate.

Those of us taught Christianity may have heard on a good day that God’s love is infinite, and that he loves us all equally at that level. My bet, would be that whether He exists or not, anybody who doesn’t hate himself would feel the same way.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,453
8,455
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Yes, so true, but why is this so? Racism is a phenomenon created by self hate. Racism is just one form of hatred of the other, no intention to minimize its evil intended by this. All hate is self hate. Self hate is the product of being put down and threatened for moral deviationas children, not conforming to whatever the insane moral standards are and whatever the threats of the withdrawal of physical care or loss of love come with that. All of this is applied by comparison of one person to another, why can’t you be like Johnny, etc. and completion to be him. If you conform you can win and be accepted. This threat and intimidation creates fear, the fear of being other or those describable as other by comparison. The fear of being different causes hatred of difference and difference is the product of comparison.

The fear of what happened to us when we stepped out of line is what gives lines emotional power. It creates the emotional need to be better. Racism in American history has been that white is better and black is bad, a lie made possible by self hate.

Those of us taught Christianity may have heard on a good day that God’s love is infinite, and that he loves us all equally at that level. My bet, would be that whether He exists or not, anybody who doesn’t hate himself would feel the same way.
I think you are confusing racism with racial bias. Blacks may not face the outright hated and people who think they are inferior, at the same level that existed in the past but systemic racism and racial bias most certainly exist and can have a huge impact on black people live. The most wildly known example being marijuana arrests and sentencing terms. Both whites and blacks use marijuana at about the same rate and yet blacks are arrested at a much higher rate. The same types of crimes committed by white people as blacks, typically yield shorter sentences as well for white people. I've seen studies where black children (it might have been females or males or both, I don't remember) that showed people thought they were older than they really were (remember tamir rice).

Its pretty easy to spot racism, not so much racial bias.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,633
3,433
126
I think you are confusing racism with racial bias. Blacks may not face the outright hated and people who think they are inferior, at the same level that existed in the past but systemic racism and racial bias most certainly exist and can have a huge impact on black people live. The most wildly known example being marijuana arrests and sentencing terms. Both whites and blacks use marijuana at about the same rate and yet blacks are arrested at a much higher rate. The same types of crimes committed by white people as blacks, typically yield shorter sentences as well for white people. I've seen studies where black children (it might have been females or males or both, I don't remember) that showed people thought they were older than they really were (remember tamir rice).

Its pretty easy to spot racism, not so much racial bias.
The easiest way for me to address your point regarding me confusing racism and racial bias, I guess, is to say that while I agree with how these may be described differently on a temporal basis, they are still essentially the same thing. In short, in the way you differentiated those terms, racism is what we see in a society that supports racial attitudes as an approved cultural norm, and racial bias is what happens when popular bigotry is forced underground, becomes disapproved of, by changing norms.

The results is that bigotry is easy to identify if you yourself aren’t that particular kind of bigot, but completely invisible if you are. The bigotry that is universally invisible, however, is that we hate ourselves. This hate creates hate of the other as I have described and whether such hate is approved of as in racist societies or driven underground by denial, the root is the same.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,453
8,455
136
The easiest way for me to address your point regarding me confusing racism and racial bias, I guess, is to say that while I agree with how these may be described differently on a temporal basis, they are still essentially the same thing. In short, in the way you differentiated those terms, racism is what we see in a society that supports racial attitudes as an approved cultural norm, and racial bias is what happens when popular bigotry is forced underground, becomes disapproved of, by changing norms.

The results is that bigotry is easy to identify if you yourself aren’t that particular kind of bigot, but completely invisible if you are. The bigotry that is universally invisible, however, is that we hate ourselves. This hate creates hate of the other as I have described and whether such hate is approved of as in racist societies or driven underground by denial, the root is the same.
I agree to an extent but the reason for the clarity is because they are not handled the same way. You can fight racism by integrating schools and exposing bigots to the things they fear and hate. That doesn't work when the issue is a systemic one like the marijuana example I used or differences in sentence lengths.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,633
3,433
126
I agree to an extent but the reason for the clarity is because they are not handled the same way. You can fight racism by integrating schools and exposing bigots to the things they fear and hate. That doesn't work when the issue is a systemic one like the marijuana example I used or differences in sentence lengths.
Yes, I agree, but the problem with how we handle them is based on self understanding. Since the inculcation of conformity in our culture is basically instilled by punishment and fear, these will be the tool to which we will unconsciously reach as solutions to what we deem as outbreaks of societal evil. And since racists based past history has worked to destroy black self respect, and segregation and prejudice has pushed Blacks into ghettoized areas, the punishment will concentrate there and be especially visible. The solution then, it seems to me is in finding real ways to restore real and genuine self pride, both among Blacks and Whites, but nobody, owing to the the denial and blindness and refusal to deal or recognize our own self hate as part of the problem, no real effort in that direction is ever considered or made. Everybody is in denial and projecting onto the world a target of some kind to blame for that unconscious and well repressed victim-pain.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
28,453
8,455
136
Yes, I agree, but the problem with how we handle them is based on self understanding. Since the inculcation of conformity in our culture is basically instilled by punishment and fear, these will be the tool to which we will unconsciously reach as solutions to what we deem as outbreaks of societal evil. And since racists based past history has worked to destroy black self respect, and segregation and prejudice has pushed Blacks into ghettoized areas, the punishment will concentrate there and be especially visible. The solution then, it seems to me is in finding real ways to restore real and genuine self pride, both among Blacks and Whites, but nobody, owing to the the denial and blindness and refusal to deal or recognize our own self hate as part of the problem, no real effort in that direction is ever considered or made. Everybody is in denial and projecting onto the world a target of some kind to blame for that unconscious and well repressed victim-pain.
I agree. Hell, the only reason I probably have any sympathy is because I've seen the issues first hand.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,274
640
126
Empirical research indicates this is untrue and black people face significantly larger challenges above and beyond anything having to do with poverty.

For example: (one of oh so many)
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html
What a mess. Black women do worse than white women. Easy to glean just from looking at full-time earnings. You need to look at other factors besides family dynamics, too e.g. blacks are taking lots of makework government jobs that pay well, which aren't as cognitively demanding as others. Chetty should get a hold of the SAT/ACT scores of the earners.

"A more likely possibility, the authors suggest, is that test scores don’t accurately measure the abilities of black children in the first place."

This Grusky guy is off his rocker. I guess all the universities can just stop relying on SAT/ACT then.

This is one of the big problems we have with fighting racism, lots of people simply claim it’s no longer a problem due to a basic ignorance of the facts. So repeat after me: racism is holding black people back.
So gathering from the article, black men are doing worse than black women... funny how racism only affects one sex apparently; this is ad hoc reasoning. So is it racism? What's the evidence that black men dropping out of school is about racism? What's the evidence that black men not going to college is about racism? The article doesn't address that at all, and it sounds absurd when the country has spent an inordinate amount from the 1970s to present to close the gap.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
70,750
20,152
136
What a mess. Black women do worse than white women. Easy to glean just from looking at full-time earnings. You need to look at other factors besides family dynamics, too e.g. blacks are taking lots of makework government jobs that pay well, which aren't as cognitively demanding as others. Chetty should get a hold of the SAT/ACT scores of the earners.

"A more likely possibility, the authors suggest, is that test scores don’t accurately measure the abilities of black children in the first place."

This Grusky guy is off his rocker. I guess all the universities can just stop relying on SAT/ACT then.

So gathering from the article, black men are doing worse than black women... funny how racism only affects one sex apparently; this is ad hoc reasoning. So is it racism? What's the evidence that black men dropping out of school is about racism? What's the evidence that black men not going to college is about racism? The article doesn't address that at all, and it sounds absurd when the country has spent an inordinate amount from the 1970s to present to close the gap.
Ah yes, the same old dance that is done literally every time evidence of systemic racism is brought up. You are so incredibly tiresome.

The claim made was it wasn’t racism, but instead entrenched poverty that explained the disparity. My link directly addressed that, showing that even in the case of people undeniably not affected by that poverty, large gaps remained. Now of course we have people like you who jump directly to the next excuse, and the next, and the next.

You don’t know what you’re talking about and as shown in the past your understanding of statistics and empirical research is poor and you’re pathologically unable to admit that you’re wrong. No thanks.
 

Maxima1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2013
3,274
640
126
Ah yes, the same old dance that is done literally every time evidence of systemic racism is brought up. You are so incredibly tiresome.

The claim made was it wasn’t racism, but instead entrenched poverty that explained the disparity. My link directly addressed that, showing that even in the case of people undeniably not affected by that poverty, large gaps remained. Now of course we have people like you who jump directly to the next excuse, and the next, and the next.
The single household does matter. It's just that the hood wins out apparently. You realize the graph showing the black and white women literally the same is rubbish? If you look at full-time earnings (which accounts for some of the family dynamics), then black women are significantly more behind (about 2/3rds of the black men gap). If Chetty can get the IRS and Census to work with him, I'd like to see him get College Board on board to give him those SAT scores of the earners (we already know about the kids, and it ain't pretty) .I'm sure that would be explosive and not in the way you would like to see.

You don’t know what you’re talking about and as shown in the past your understanding of statistics and empirical research is poor and you’re pathologically unable to admit that you’re wrong. No thanks.
Funny how you think you have an ironclad case for "systemic racism" when even the people disagreeing with the genetic factor are all over the place with the explanations.

Racial Inequality in the 21st Century:The Declining Signicance of Discrimination

"Understanding the causes of current racial inequality is a subject of intense debate. A wide
variety of explanations have been put forth, which range from genetics (Jensen, 1973; Rushton,
1995) to personal and institutional discrimination (Darity and Mason, 1998; Pager, 2007; Krieger
and Sidney, 1996) to the cultural backwardness of minority groups (Reuter, 1945; Shukla, 1971).
Renowned sociologist William Julius Wilson argues that a potent interaction between poverty and
racial discrimination can explain current disparities (Wilson, 2010).

Decomposing the share of inequality attributable to these explanations is exceedingly dicult, as
experiments (eld, quasi-, or natural) or other means of credible identication are rarely available.2
Even in cases where experiments are used (i.e., audit studies), it is unclear precisely what is being
measured (Heckman, 1998). The lack of success in convincingly identifying root causes of racial
inequality has often reduced the debate to a competition of \name that residual" { arbitrarily
assigning identity to unexplained dierences between racial groups in economic outcomes after
accounting for a set of confounding factors. The residuals are often interpreted as \discrimination,"
\culture," \genetics," and so on. Gaining a better understanding of the root causes of racial
inequality is of tremendous importance for social policy, and the purpose of this chapter."
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,471
423
126
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/us/politics/bernie-sanders-obama-mississippi.html

He immediately won applause by declaring that the party’s business model had “failed” and then recalled, as he and many Democrats often do, that the party had lost about 1,000 state legislative seats in the last decade.

But Mr. Sanders also said that these setbacks happened on the watch of “a charismatic individual named Barack Obama,” whom Mr. Sanders also called “an extraordinary candidate, brilliant guy.”

...
Bernie Sanders down in Mississippi today - IN MISSISSIPPI - giving a master class on expressing TOTAL ignorance of how black folks work.

...
did you mention that he was president much less that it was historic?

Because I saw you call him a ‘charismatic individual’—not even leader!

An ‘extraordinary candidate’—not even president!

And ‘brilliant guy’.

Perhaps your office will release a transcript of your remarks.



I don’t get the outrage. I read the article, still dont get the outrage.

It's simple he's not an insider kind of guy... yet his policy positions are actually popular...

  • Medicare for All
  • Free state colleges
  • Getting out of Wars and limiting foreign interventions
  • higher minimum wage
So if people who don't like him speaking on those policies usually bought and paid for corporatists just try to slander him as racist or tone deaf.

And you wonder why we can't have nice things?

It's because (as copious evidence was presented for by the study titled Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens written by Princeton Professor Martin Gilens and Northwestern University Professor Benjamin I. Paige) the U.S. is an Oligarchy in nature if not in name.
https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/files/gilens_and_page_2014_-testing_theories_of_american_politics.doc.pdf



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