Being Gay Is Just Like Alcoholism, According to Republican Senate Candidate Ken Buck

[onlyCOpunk]

Point is, you can hate/dislike/feel someone is wrong for their "opinions" or "choices" or whatever. I have a choice to do anything I want, doesn't mean I except you to accept or be okay with it. Everyone is so oversensitive with this stupid issue. I don't accept or like it because it is in my eyes morally wrong and there is absolutely no way I can or will accept it as a valid form of life. You can feel the same way about anything. People here do the same thing with Christianity and other religions, so why should I be any different for a choice?

And no, I didn't read your posts or anyone else's in the thread for that matter.

You're a boob if you seriously think that sexuality is a choice. It is not a choice. I did not choose be gay.

On the other hand, I do choose to shack up with men. I could CHOOSE to be with women, but I do not because I do not have to.

Whether or not people like you accept or even try to UNDERSTAND that people are different doesn't concern me, and I don't give a flying fuck about your opinion or how you think I should live my life.

Point of the matter is you nor anybody else should have the freedom to dictate the way in which every individual lives their lives. Comparing something harmless like being gay to something extremely harmful such as a serial killer proves that you know absolutely nothing about freedom. You are a disgrace to the American people, a country founded on freedom by denying others their freedoms because you don't like something or see it "morally wrong."

I would like to see you face to face and tell me that I am not a valid human being right before I smash your face into the ground.

 

[bunnyfubbles]

Well I have a choice to be a serial killer.
Is that wrong?

as long as you're like Dexter then you're ok with me

 

[Moonbeam]

Well I have a choice to be a serial killer.
Is that wrong?

It is if you feel human empathy. Serial killers are not human. They have no empathy. It is probably genetic. For them all things are dead, just things, objects. They are like the Terminator, dead machines.

 

[Moonbeam]

And you're the only one who has achieved this level of enlightenment. Maybe we can get your forum title changed to Emperor or, at least, Philosopher King.

A nobody will do just fine.

 

[zsdersw]

Point is, you can hate/dislike/feel someone is wrong for their "opinions" or "choices" or whatever. I have a choice to do anything I want, doesn't mean I except you to accept or be okay with it. Everyone is so oversensitive with this stupid issue. I don't accept or like it because it is in my eyes morally wrong and there is absolutely no way I can or will accept it as a valid form of life. You can feel the same way about anything. People here do the same thing with Christianity and other religions, so why should I be any different for a choice?

You don't condone my sexual activities and I don't condone your ignorance on the issue. Fortunately, the approval of others is not required for either of us.

The problem is when laws and changes to constitutions are sought that apply the full force and credit of government power to enshrining the disapproval you have for my sexual activities or that I have for your ignorance.

I realize politicians have to say things when running for office and that they may not necessarily act on the things they talk about, but that's not to suggest that the things they say don't matter. They do.

And no, I didn't read your posts or anyone else's in the thread for that matter.

Of course you didn't. Ignorance is bliss for you, isn't it?

 

[Jhhnn]

And no, I didn't read your posts or anyone else's in the thread for that matter.

And that's different from your usual behavior in what way?

 

[CycloWizard]

Break down the mindset of a bigot. Why do they be bigoted? IF you can answer that correctly you'll understand why Moonster continues to try and address the issues he does. What motivates the bigoted mindset?

A bigot is anyone who holds to their own opinions independent of reality. Moonbeam seems to fit this to a T, just like the rest of us. He may be the most bigoted of all because it seems that, while the rest of us don't claim to have all the answers, he claims to know with certainty that he does have them.

 

[werepossum]

He could've worded it *a lot* better than he did, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt when he said that he didn't mean homosexuality was a disease.

I would, however, like to see what upon which he's basing his belief that attraction to the same gender is in any way a choice.

Sometimes it's purely a choice. I had a friend who was raped, cut up and left for dead. She chose to go from straight to lesbian based on that experience. Beyond such extremes, probably most people are neither black nor white, but are on a continuum. We choose whether to pursue an attractive male or an attractive female based not only on our genetics, but also on our views of ourselves and on our societal conditioning. In support of this I offer two things. First, the more restrictive a society against homosexuals, the lower the percentage of people who are practicing homosexuals. If homosexuality were strictly something one is born into, then these people should be chaste, but instead most of them are functional heterosexuals.

Second, many homosexuals carry on reasonably successful heterosexual relationships for literally decades before "realizing" that they are gay. Although these people are no doubt born with strong sexual attractions to the same sex, it takes a conscious decision to flip from straight to gay. Yet previously they were functional with the opposite sex. I personally could not be sexually functional with the same sex, yet these Johnny-come-out-lately types were sexually functional with the opposite sex. That suggests that people are not always binary in sexual orientation. Those people must make a choice according to degree of attraction, the individual in question, their life goals, and how they see themselves within the bounds of their society.

 

[zsdersw]

Sometimes it's purely a choice. I had a friend who was raped, cut up and left for dead. She chose to go from straight to lesbian based on that experience. Beyond such extremes, probably most people are neither black nor white, but are on a continuum. We choose whether to pursue an attractive male or an attractive female based not only on our genetics, but also on our views of ourselves and on our societal conditioning. In support of this I offer two things. First, the more restrictive a society against homosexuals, the lower the percentage of people who are practicing homosexuals. If homosexuality were strictly something one is born into, then these people should be chaste, but instead most of them are functional heterosexuals.

Second, many homosexuals carry on reasonably successful heterosexual relationships for literally decades before "realizing" that they are gay. Although these people are no doubt born with strong sexual attractions to the same sex, it takes a conscious decision to flip from straight to gay. Yet previously they were functional with the opposite sex. I personally could not be sexually functional with the same sex, yet these Johnny-come-out-lately types were sexually functional with the opposite sex. That suggests that people are not always binary in sexual orientation. Those people must make a choice according to degree of attraction, the individual in question, their life goals, and how they see themselves within the bounds of their society.

If you read any of my other posts in this thread you'll see that I say almost the exact same things.

 

[werepossum]

If you read any of my other posts in this thread you'll see that I say almost the exact same things.

Ah, I'm not surprised, you and I tend to think a lot alike.

 

[Tristicus]

You're a boob if you seriously think that sexuality is a choice. It is not a choice. I did not choose be gay.

On the other hand, I do choose to shack up with men. I could CHOOSE to be with women, but I do not because I do not have to.

Whether or not people like you accept or even try to UNDERSTAND that people are different doesn't concern me, and I don't give a flying fuck about your opinion or how you think I should live my life.

Point of the matter is you nor anybody else should have the freedom to dictate the way in which every individual lives their lives. Comparing something harmless like being gay to something extremely harmful such as a serial killer proves that you know absolutely nothing about freedom. You are a disgrace to the American people, a country founded on freedom by denying others their freedoms because you don't like something or see it "morally wrong."

I would like to see you face to face and tell me that I am not a valid human being right before I smash your face into the ground.

I'm a boob? You had the choice to say that and sound pretty dumb. Oh look, a choice to do something. Just like you have a choice to be a homosexual. And you choose to act on that homosexuality.

Alright, it's not a choice. It's a brain difference. So is pedophilia. So let's classify it as a disease. Would you rather me that?

If you didn't care about my opinion, you wouldn't care to take the time to explain your choice to someone as "ignorant" as me.

Point is, the government and people in general have been telling people they can't have a choice since the beginning of time, and this is no different. You're a shame to America, yadda yadda yadda, wouldn't piss if you're on fire, yadda yadda yadda.

And to gather, nobody said you weren't a human being - or a valid human being. If you're a human, and American, then I'll save you from falling off the edge of a cliff or something. You're still a human, and a life that could be changed for the better. But keep it up with the internet tough guy talk.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Paratus: All well and good, but it seems that the vast majority of your posts in P&N start with attacks on the logic or premise of the OPs. Rarely have I noticed you present a point of view of your own - only attack others.

M: I attribute this, in part, to the pin-headedness of engineers, the linear, burrow in, minutia focused, left hemisphere dominant thinker as opposed to the less laterally specialized holistic thinking more typical of hemisphere communication as seen more commonly in women with their thicker and more heavily wired corpus callosum. CW, in short, displays what many might call nerd thinking, a sort of left field, out to lunch, contextually inappropriate, stuck in the mud fixation on the first bit of data to enter his thinking system.

P: The fact that you rarely if ever attack anything conservative, pro-libertarian, pro-religious, anti-science and mostly attack those attacking the above, indirectly belies your POV.

M: This would be the general rule, I think. As with anything general there do occur exceptions.

P: On topic: Stangely he may have something there. Internal and external pressure can prevent an alcoholic from drinking, but it doesn't change the fact that they're still alcoholic. Same with sexual preferences. Societal and internal pressures may change how you act but not whom you are attracted to.

M: The speaker is a bigot. He propounded a bigoted point of view. He did so because millions of folk have that same bigoted point of view. The implication was that homosexuality is a disease like alcoholism is classified as being. This was the intent, to imply that gays are sick. The man isn't an idiot. He is telling millions of other bigots that he is their man. He is in the party of bigots that does that all the time. The party of death, the Republicans, play to the worst in man. It is how they win elections and destroy the nation, by spreading and feeding the lowest forms of human ignorance and self hate.

Remember though, that while Republicans fester and foment hate and to which a normal person responds to with derision and revulsion, to look deeper is to see that these folk can't help themselves. They hate themselves, look for others to hate so they can feel better, and had to do this to survive as children. They were made to be bigots and would have died physically had they not died psychically to love. Only love can cure bigotry. You condemn yourself to bigotry if you can't forgive them.

Excellent observation ! :thumbsup:

Although i do not disagree with your entire post. Not at all .

But i am a nerd myself although i do not posses the typical pinheaded narrow viewed way of thinking.

 

[shira]

I'd say that means that the evidence of genetic control is not quite understood or there are other factors at play or in conjunction.
Nothing is 'permanent' so long as tomorrow exists.
All I know is that folks say stuff that supports their current position.. Maybe even the person involved doesn't know or understand what motivates their 'feelings'.

Maybe being Gay is an overriding feeling of Freedom... A freedom denied in some other form.. Maybe?

Genetics is almost never 100%, and I don't know many well-informed people who claim otherwise for gender-attraction. There's a lot of evidence, for example, that the hormonal balance in the womb greatly affects gender-attraction; that's not genes, it's environment.

Perhaps environment + genes creates some gays who have only a weak attraction to the same sex, and it's these "weakly-attracted" gays who are the ones that are able to "switch."

In any event, why does any of this matter? Being in a same-sex romantic relationship harms no one. There are exactly two reasons for intolerance of gays: religion and the "yuck" factor. Everything else used to justify anti-gay bias is just rationalization of these fundamental drivers.

 

[werepossum]

Genetics is almost never 100%, and I don't know many well-informed people who claim otherwise for gender-attraction. There's a lot of evidence, for example, that the hormonal balance in the womb greatly affects gender-attraction; that's not genes, it's environment.

Perhaps environment + genes creates some gays who have only a weak attraction to the same sex, and it's these "weakly-attracted" gays who are the ones that are able to "switch."

In any event, why does any of this matter? Being in a same-sex romantic relationship harms no one. There are exactly two reasons for intolerance of gays: religion and the "yuck" factor. Everything else used to justify anti-gay bias is just rationalization of these fundamental drivers.

Agreed. Why the hell does anyone care why someone else is homosexual? Is this to become like hate crimes, so that we will grudgingly accept homosexuals but only if they are homosexual for the right reason?

People need to grow the fuck up and stop worrying about those behaviors which do not materially affect them, instead of analyzing why those behaviors occur. I have no problem with homosexuals, and I have no problem with Ken Buck's theories on why they exist - unless and until he starts advocating public policy on those theories. Until then, his theories - that homosexuality is partially genetic - suits me just fine since I don't care either way.

 

[CycloWizard]

Excellent observation ! :thumbsup:

Although i do not disagree with your entire post. Not at all .

But i am a nerd myself although i do not posses the typical pinheaded narrow viewed way of thinking.

Yes, you and Moonbeam are truly peas in a pod. :biggrin:

 

[LunarRay]

A bigot is anyone who holds to their own opinions independent of reality. Moonbeam seems to fit this to a T, just like the rest of us. He may be the most bigoted of all because it seems that, while the rest of us don't claim to have all the answers, he claims to know with certainty that he does have them.

I'd use the term 'intolerant' to define a bigot. I don't much care about folks having opinions but when they seek to deny another the same rights they demand for themselves based on the simple notion that the 'others' are not worthy of having a right because they don't fit the same profile or condition I cringe. I think that Freedom is about being Free to pursue one's own objectives so long as they don't reduce other's rights in the process.

Moonbeam is not really emanating from some space rock! His basic thesis is that People are or ought to be peaceful loving creatures. They ought to care equally for what one could term 'mankind'. Something alters that capability in many which creates this population of hate and destruction. IOW, it is not a condition that is consistent with being either a creature of a Supreme Being or simply an advance evolutionary entity...
Apparently somewhere in our mind exists a driving force that we are not able to consciously touch in the usual manner of thinking. It is the motivator of our behavior... Our Subconscious. Moonbeam learned that this subconscious houses confused and inaccurate 'data'. Parents tell kids they're bad... or maybe good but to the subconscious mind of the kid it could interpret that to mean anything, I think. As folks grow older they behave in a manner that never seeks to understand why they do... they simply be who they are, often. This is not a defect like... say a chemical imbalance might be... But somewhere along the line IF this subconscious condition is strong enough it generates a break between the normal loving type thinking that the human should produce and the actual behavior produced... it thereby produces an increasing subconscious hate for oneself. This hate is then projected outward, often... There is no other way to react to self hate... maybe jumping off a building is the alternative... but usually to lash out satisfies for a moment this desire or frustration...
Moonbeam indicates that to rid the mind of this condition one must find the map into the subconscious and realize that all that motivating garbage are lies... unreal interpretations of input. IOW, the ego must be void to start anew... and when that occurs the transformation is quite evident... the hater becomes the lover. The condition is not the same or equal for all... neither is the behavior, obviously... but it is real... Some need not do a thing cuz they've escaped the subconscious trauma others are devastated by.
Anyhow, when Moonbeam sees hate he knows from where it comes... and tries to convince the hater to delve into their causal... That is how I see it...

 

[LunarRay]

Genetics is almost never 100%, and I don't know many well-informed people who claim otherwise for gender-attraction. There's a lot of evidence, for example, that the hormonal balance in the womb greatly affects gender-attraction; that's not genes, it's environment.

Perhaps environment + genes creates some gays who have only a weak attraction to the same sex, and it's these "weakly-attracted" gays who are the ones that are able to "switch."

In any event, why does any of this matter? Being in a same-sex romantic relationship harms no one. There are exactly two reasons for intolerance of gays: religion and the "yuck" factor. Everything else used to justify anti-gay bias is just rationalization of these fundamental drivers.

Something drives Gay intolerance and it occurs with no rational basis, IMO.

Your analysis is as good as any other I've considered... probably a combo of conditions with varying degrees of control..

 

[CycloWizard]

I'd use the term 'intolerant' to define a bigot. I don't much care about folks having opinions but when they seek to deny another the same rights they demand for themselves based on the simple notion that the 'others' are not worthy of having a right because they don't fit the same profile or condition I cringe. I think that Freedom is about being Free to pursue one's own objectives so long as they don't reduce other's rights in the process.

Moonbeam is not really emanating from some space rock! His basic thesis is that People are or ought to be peaceful loving creatures. They ought to care equally for what one could term 'mankind'. Something alters that capability in many which creates this population of hate and destruction. IOW, it is not a condition that is consistent with being either a creature of a Supreme Being or simply an advance evolutionary entity...
Apparently somewhere in our mind exists a driving force that we are not able to consciously touch in the usual manner of thinking. It is the motivator of our behavior... Our Subconscious. Moonbeam learned that this subconscious houses confused and inaccurate 'data'. Parents tell kids they're bad... or maybe good but to the subconscious mind of the kid it could interpret that to mean anything, I think. As folks grow older they behave in a manner that never seeks to understand why they do... they simply be who they are, often. This is not a defect like... say a chemical imbalance might be... But somewhere along the line IF this subconscious condition is strong enough it generates a break between the normal loving type thinking that the human should produce and the actual behavior produced... it thereby produces an increasing subconscious hate for oneself. This hate is then projected outward, often... There is no other way to react to self hate... maybe jumping off a building is the alternative... but usually to lash out satisfies for a moment this desire or frustration...
Moonbeam indicates that to rid the mind of this condition one must find the map into the subconscious and realize that all that motivating garbage are lies... unreal interpretations of input. IOW, the ego must be void to start anew... and when that occurs the transformation is quite evident... the hater becomes the lover. The condition is not the same or equal for all... neither is the behavior, obviously... but it is real... Some need not do a thing cuz they've escaped the subconscious trauma others are devastated by.
Anyhow, when Moonbeam sees hate he knows from where it comes... and tries to convince the hater to delve into their causal... That is how I see it...

The problem, as I see it, is that he thinks he knows which way to go and that the directions are the same for everyone. In reality, this is the most personalized journey anyone will ever take and it varies considerably from person to person. You can't make someone stop hating themselves any more than you can make them stop hating someone else. You can make suggestions and try to steer them as much as you like, but often this simply leads to more resentment and more hatred. Moonbeam thinks he can steer someone else's car while driving his own.

 

[LunarRay]

The problem, as I see it, is that he thinks he knows which way to go and that the directions are the same for everyone. In reality, this is the most personalized journey anyone will ever take and it varies considerably from person to person. You can't make someone stop hating themselves any more than you can make them stop hating someone else. You can make suggestions and try to steer them as much as you like, but often this simply leads to more resentment and more hatred. Moonbeam thinks he can steer someone else's car while driving his own.

I don't think Moonbeam would disagree with the notion that one must have a ... what is the term.... well... a person who knows how to guide more than himself.. like a therapist.. I don't think Moonbeam thinks he is that therapist... It seems his gist has to do more with the links of behavior and a bit to do with why fors and stuff and such.
He's been there and is expert on Moonbeam... He also knows others accompanied him on that journey, as he's said.

He does try to use the same 'attitude' projected by others to 'communicate' with others... seems that is important... not sure exactly why but it is consistent.

Although I agree with Moonbeam on this issue, I tend to take folks as I find them. I'm not about trying to change what I don't like but, rather, find my way around that. I don't have the time nor inclination to remedy the minds of folks I deal with... presuming I know they are in need of remedy and/or I know the solution... For my purposes the Myers-Briggs pigeonholing of personalities does for me what needs doing in my 'used to be profession'. I'd not allow hate among the folks under my influence, however...

I raised my kids and grand kids with one simple objective... to teach them how to think... not what to think... To find their passion and go for it.

 

[onlyCOpunk]

I'm a boob? You had the choice to say that and sound pretty dumb. Oh look, a choice to do something. Just like you have a choice to be a homosexual. And you choose to act on that homosexuality.

Alright, it's not a choice. It's a brain difference. So is pedophilia. So let's classify it as a disease. Would you rather me that?

If you didn't care about my opinion, you wouldn't care to take the time to explain your choice to someone as "ignorant" as me.

Point is, the government and people in general have been telling people they can't have a choice since the beginning of time, and this is no different. You're a shame to America, yadda yadda yadda, wouldn't piss if you're on fire, yadda yadda yadda.

And to gather, nobody said you weren't a human being - or a valid human being. If you're a human, and American, then I'll save you from falling off the edge of a cliff or something. You're still a human, and a life that could be changed for the better. But keep it up with the internet tough guy talk.

Yes you're a boob. And for the record I am not an American, and it's people like you that make the rest of the world laugh at your country. I fear what you are or will teach your children about the world, but hopefully they are smart enough to challenge your backwoods thinking.

Then again, you will probably never understand the strife of minorities because you have most likely never been discriminated agaisnt. Until that day comes, you will never understand, so you should keep your bigotry to yourself because it makes you sound like a boob.

And for the record, ALL of you have these opinions on gays, why we are like we are and are psychoanalysing the shit out of us. But has anyone even asked us flatout why we are like we are? Taken the time to actually listen instead of waiting for your turn to speak and lumping us into some freakshow?

 

[LunarRay]

And for the record, ALL of you have these opinions on gays, why we are like we are and are psychoanalysing the shit out of us. But has anyone even asked us flatout why we are like we are? Taken the time to actually listen instead of waiting for your turn to speak and lumping us into some freakshow?

I suppose I could try to analyze my daughter but then why?.. She is Gay and is very much in love with her wife... What could be better for her than to find what she has? She was married three times and had three kids.. but never happy... not like she is now... not hardly even fractionally... My Grandkids are supportive of her lifestyle and consider her wife to be their relation too... As do I... both are my daughters.. IF she is happy then I am happy for her... and for me because I want her to be happy...

Fundamental Rights are just that... They are held by the individual... IF those individuals wish to share their lives together then that is fine too... regardless of any other factor.

 

[Tristicus]

Yes you're a boob. And for the record I am not an American, and it's people like you that make the rest of the world laugh at your country. I fear what you are or will teach your children about the world, but hopefully they are smart enough to challenge your backwoods thinking.

Then again, you will probably never understand the strife of minorities because you have most likely never been discriminated agaisnt. Until that day comes, you will never understand, so you should keep your bigotry to yourself because it makes you sound like a boob.

And for the record, ALL of you have these opinions on gays, why we are like we are and are psychoanalysing the shit out of us. But has anyone even asked us flatout why we are like we are? Taken the time to actually listen instead of waiting for your turn to speak and lumping us into some freakshow?

And for the record, ALL of you have these opinions on anti-gays, why we are like we are and are psychoanalysing the shit out of us. But has anyone even asked us flatout why we are like we are? Taken the time to actually listen instead of waiting for your turn to speak and lumping us into some freakshow?

Oh, wait, see what I did there? Assumptions only make you look like an ass.

 

[Moonbeam]

And for the record, ALL of you have these opinions on anti-gays, why we are like we are and are psychoanalysing the shit out of us. But has anyone even asked us flatout why we are like we are? Taken the time to actually listen instead of waiting for your turn to speak and lumping us into some freakshow?

Oh, wait, see what I did there? Assumptions only make you look like an ass.

Why bother to ask when it's clear that some perversion in you causes to chose to be a freak.

 

[HomerJS]

And for the record, ALL of you have these opinions on anti-gays, why we are like we are and are psychoanalysing the shit out of us. But has anyone even asked us flatout why we are like we are? Taken the time to actually listen instead of waiting for your turn to speak and lumping us into some freakshow?

Oh, wait, see what I did there? Assumptions only make you look like an ass.

If you can answer the question why should a Lieutenant in the military who is an expert on arabic culture, something we desperatly need should be fired just because she wants to go down on her girlfriend, maybe the rest of us will have some insight.